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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:06 pm Reply with quote
I'm surprised we haven't gotten the To-Love-Ru manga by now. As for mangaka, I imagine they renegotiate their contracts if their titles make money.
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dragon695



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
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Location: Clemson, SC

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:30 pm Reply with quote
I'm sorry Jason, but your logic is a bit flawed. The big 3 publishers do not take into consideration what goes on outside of Japan when it comes to contract negotiations for the artists in Japanese publications. Do you think Kishimoto would have been given a good contract if he had lots of sales in the US but not in the land of moon? Never mind the fact that tankoban goes on sale in Japan, much less the rest of the world, well after the chapters' performance has been considered in serialization meetings. It may have impact, but you can't publish tankoban if you get dropped from the serial. I think Bakuman, in a tongue and cheek manner, has done an excellent job of satirizing what "really" matters to the publishers. Sure, I subscribe to WSJ from Viz, but I am quite certain that the survey you can fill out on their website has no impact during serialization meetings, etc. Especially since the material is dated. Perhaps it will be different now that they are simulpublishing manga in digital format, but somehow I doubt it.

Also, work-for-hire is very much the way things work in Japan if you aren't Kishimoto or others in his same class. And since that class is so very miniscule, you might as well consider it the exception and not the rule. The other 97% of mangaka will probably never even get close to that dream. To put it in perspective, the Japanese publishers have even found difficulty in exporting their business model. In fact, I recall there was quite a bruhaha on LiveJournal when one of the international subsidiaries of the big three were testing the waters and trying to recruit OEL manga artists through contests. Someone did their homework and posted an actual lawyer's analysis of one of the contest contracts. It turns out the contract you had to submit with your entry basically was worse than work-for-hire. It's because they actually were acquiring the rights for your entry's intellectual property EVEN IF YOU DID NOT WIN. The most infamous for doing this was Tokyopop. Of course, it doesn't help matters that the big 3 are more or less the publishing cartel in Japan or the fact that most Japanese are resigned to the go-along to get-along corporate mentality. The way they operate makes the US recording industry look like saints in comparison (although admittedly Sony is a member of that group).

Further, things really get ugly the father away from shounen you get. Why not try asking how shoujo-ai or shounen-ai mangakas are treated? Or worse even, how hentai and yaoi mangakas are treated. Of course, the excuse in the case of the latter is that such material is dirty and so those making it deserve to be treated like dirt. Yet ironically, it is the shadow arms of the big 3 who publish this dirt that are probably what's keeping the main body afloat in these troubled times.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:30 pm Reply with quote
For the new question, Puella Magi Madoka Magica. Usagi Drop is a worthy second (I rated both of them Masterpiece), but there's no way it's close. Only one series this year been a true standout, both commercially and in terms of incredible storytelling quality.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2722

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:49 pm Reply with quote
Answerman wrote:
The market for manga and the market for anime are actually quite a bit different, in the sense that there's a pretty big demographic split between the two when it comes to actual sales. I mean, logistically speaking, it's nearly impossible to find somebody who only buys anime and doesn't buy manga, but you could make a pretty solid case that there's a large portion of people who only buy manga and doesn't ever bother to pick up an anime DVD.

You've just described Japan, not the US. While I certainly do agree on the demographics for manga buyers in US skewing younger and being more picky, that fact also contradicts what you mentioned above because manga is simply more expensive than anime here (.. ok, except some Aniplex releases) Omnibus editions certainly help but those usually take a while.

There's no cheap serialization option here in the US; yes the paper quality is poor, but it's the way most people read their manga and you get a whole TON of manga for the money. In fact as dragon695 pointed out, the mangaka's livelihood depends on the serialization and rankings!

Even this Square-Enix producer notes Reasons Manga Do Not Sell Well Overseas
Quote:
Fullmetal Alchemist and Naruto were among the top-selling comics in America. However, their American sales were about 1/20th to 1/10th the size of their Japanese sales.

He notes the higher prices, smaller print runs, less money "children" have (which I take to include teens), and the much greater lack of availability and convenience. Unlike Japan, manga isn't as prolific as regular magazines here.

Quote:
As a result, TV anime is extremely popular among many people, but not as many actually buy manga.

(On the other hand the French market is vastly different and is much larger)

dragon695 wrote:
Also, work-for-hire is very much the way things work in Japan if you aren't Kishimoto or others in his same class. And since that class is so very miniscule, you might as well consider it the exception and not the rule.

This is applies even more so for anime. There was a thread already covering this with documented costs, and budgeting. Everyone goes through the production committee, a pool of investors, who owns the rights. The animation studio--including director, writers, VAs hired and all the talent--is allocated a small fraction of that budget (though there are other legitimate costs involved outside the studio) which is already relatively small to begin with compared to live action, and they don't see any more money after the work is done.

There are always exceptions of course like Sunrise and Gundam, but by and large that's basically it for late night anime where not a penny of your DVD/BD goes to them.

There is one upside, which can be crucial and probably why it remains the defacto method: they get paid even when the anime tanks, which many do. The production committee takes the hit, but they might be able to compensate with merchandise or other titles they have invested in.


Last edited by configspace on Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gina Szanboti



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:50 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
I mean, logistically speaking, it's nearly impossible to find somebody who only buys anime and doesn't buy manga

::raises hand:: Rolling Eyes
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EnigmaticSky



Joined: 06 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:54 pm Reply with quote
I pretty much just buy anime blurays but don't buy manga. I do buy manga on occasion, but it is rare.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:03 pm Reply with quote
Gina Szanboti wrote:
Quote:
I mean, logistically speaking, it's nearly impossible to find somebody who only buys anime and doesn't buy manga

::raises hand:: Rolling Eyes


I somehow missed that part when reading the article. But if there's anyone who needs to get his eyesight checked it is Brian, because I too don't read any Manga, even scanlations. Okay, let me clarify that. I've read bits of pieces of Death Note but never a full chapter. I read the first two chapters of Mirai Nikki, and I own (and have read) the first volume of Eureka seveN because it came with the art box. That's it.

So yeah, I would like to see Brian not try and make ridiculous generalisations, especially when he's in a position of giving advice and informing people.
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Youkai Warrior



Joined: 07 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:43 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Gina Szanboti wrote:
Quote:
I mean, logistically speaking, it's nearly impossible to find somebody who only buys anime and doesn't buy manga

::raises hand:: Rolling Eyes


I somehow missed that part when reading the article. But if there's anyone who needs to get his eyesight checked it is Brian, because I too don't read any Manga, even scanlations. Okay, let me clarify that. I've read bits of pieces of Death Note but never a full chapter. I read the first two chapters of Mirai Nikki, and I own (and have read) the first volume of Eureka seveN because it came with the art box. That's it.

So yeah, I would like to see Brian not try and make ridiculous generalisations, especially when he's in a position of giving advice and informing people.


Ditto. I was under the impression that there were more people that bought anime, but not manga. It's been like that for years. I read manga and watch anime, but it's expensive doing both. If it wasn't for my overwhelming curioisty to read the source than watch the material, I would just stick with anime. It's cheaper and quicker.
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:50 pm Reply with quote
I'd like to see Brian quit it with these theme Answerman columns answering questions that have been answered time and again not that far apart. I hate to see what really great questions asked this week that were past over cause Brian wanted to make the whole column revolve around questions about manga Rolling Eyes
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Annf



Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Posts: 576

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:44 pm Reply with quote
dragon695 wrote:
work-for-hire is very much the way things work in Japan

Not really. It's standard for mangaka to own rights to their work in Japan, and they receive a percentage of tankoubon sales.
In fact, this is causing issues for Amazon at the moment, because for their ebook service (Kindle), they're demanding that Japanese publishers act like American ones and obtain complete control of authors' works--something Japanese publishers currently don't do--so Amazon doesn't have to negotiate with individual authors.

If you just mean "most mangaka sell so few tankoubon that a huge chunk of their income is the one-time payment for the initial magazine print so it feels like work-for-hire," then sure.
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CrownKlown



Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 982

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:47 pm Reply with quote
I have to say the same here, me and my circle of friends who like anime, are pretty much only anime. Okay a 100 volumes of manga, but I have almost 2000 volumes or dvds of anime. Most of my other friends have no manga and just anime. I no maybe one or two people who are primarily manga only fans, and usually the series the pick up are non anime anyway.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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Location: NE Ohio

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:31 am Reply with quote
Annf wrote:
dragon695 wrote:
work-for-hire is very much the way things work in Japan

Not really. It's standard for mangaka to own rights to their work in Japan, and they receive a percentage of tankoubon sales. ...

Bingo ~ multiple industry sources have noted that while anime is normally work for hire and belongs to the production committee (though the production committee may well split up rights in a variety of ways that can make worldwide streaming difficult to pull off), manga rights are normally unbundled.

Page rates for first publication are just that: first publication rights, just as if someone has sold a Science Fiction short story at the miserable word rates of the surviving commercial SF magazines.

OT1H in many cases mangaka would lose money if they earned page rates alone, but OTOH they don't earn page rates alone, if they have tankobon that are selling.

And international publication rights are yet another right that is not normally obtained up front, because after all, who knows what those crazy foreigners are going to take a hankering after, so rather than pay extra for those rights up front, may as well just wait until the rights are bid for.

dragon695 wrote:
I'm sorry Jason, but your logic is a bit flawed. ...

"Logic" is perhaps relevant to a discussion about whether the current way of doing things is under pressure to change. But the current practice if the current practice, irrespective of whether internet forum discussants find it logical or illogical.
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Kosaka
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Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:23 am Reply with quote
Quote:
The sort of things that anime fans really dig. Specifically the older folks who actually, you know, buy DVDs. The market for manga in the west is skewed significantly younger, without putting too fine a point on it.

I don't know definitively, but I thought the market for manga in the West skewed, if anything, older rather than younger, than the market for anime in the West.
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Chagen46



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:35 am Reply with quote
Nope. At 16, I am one of the youngest people to frequent my local anime shop.

But I see TONS of people my age and younger reading manga in my school.
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CrownKlown



Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 982

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:17 am Reply with quote
Young people read manga, don't buy it thats the problem. I always saw kids reading manga in borders or barnes and nobles like it was got dam library. They don't actually buy anything, older folks tend actually buy manga, but I notice for the most part they stick to a few specific series.
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