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NEWS: Red Garden, NHK to End in Boxes, Not Single DVDs

I think these releases, as well as the issues with the Fate Stay and Shana boxes has killed off most of the good will Funi had earned from the license "rescues" in the first place. [...] I probably won't even finish RG or NHK, because I refuse to pay $50-$60 for just a hand full of episodes.

I'm going to sit down and write them a nice letter later (when I'm not so angry about it), but right now I really just feel like venting. I'm a collector and I've been collecting the invidual volumes of Welcome to the NHK since the beginning. I even got the artbox. It annoys me to no end to know that even though the series will be finished, I will have to buy a box with volumes I already own to complete my collection. This is not something I am going to do. [...] This basically means that even though the last volume of NHK will exist in the world, I will not own it...

In related news, I've solved the trouble with the missing volume in my NHK box (by placing an empty DVD case in the open slot with a less than pleased message to Funimation written on the spine). I'd post a link to the picture of it I took, but I'm not sure the vulgarity I used would be appropriate for these forums...

FUNimation is only releasing the second part of NHK in a boxset. What about the first part of NHK?

Amazon shows both parts up for pre-order, and luckily coming out on the same day, so you don't have to worry about them deciding to scrap it and go to full-season release only after buying the first half.

First and foremost, where is your evidence that they weren't? I don't feel like I should be forced to provide "evidence" to support an open claim (especially when my wording was "didn't exactly," not "didn't") when the person demanding said evidence provides nothing to the contrary.

Anyway, as I recall, many of the licenses in question were pulled previously from ADVs site and line-up some time in the middle of the release schedule, then re-added, then finally dropped again just before the street date for NHK volume 5. It's clear that they were trying to work out their licensing deal/issues with Sojitz and were ultimately unable to. In the end, ADV didn't shut down operations as a result of this debacle. They dusted themselves off and licensed some new series. Clearly, my arguments that they "didn't drop their licenses" (since they were taken by Sojitz and sold instead to Funimation) and that they "didn't go under" (considering they are still licensing and releasing titles) are pretty sound. I don't know where the problem with my comments are here.

When did I mention Red Garden, let alone the UK release? My problem and complaint is specifically in regards to Welcome to the NHK volume 6, in the US. There is no evidence at all that they would "lose money" by doing a limited print run of the volume for the collectors. Before your argument is "but they would lose money if they printed the discs for the collectors" please show me some figures to support your claim. My argument is based on what seems to be a pretty vocal complaint from the very collectors (myself included) that we wanted that last volume. I know I won't be buying the box set just to get my hands on the last volume, and for anyone to tell me to "suck it up and be glad we're getting anything at all" I have to wonder where your self-respect is. That's like saying, "we're just not good enough to get the things we want or be treated with any kind of respect by anyone, so when we're given our meager rations, not only shouldn't we have the right to complain, we should thank our kind overlords." The point of an open forum is to complain about the things we are unhappy about, even if we know our voices won't change things or amount to much, we still have the right to complain.

It made it through five volumes, while Geneon couldn't even get to the fourth volume of Hellsing Ultimate before folding.

Oh come on, you can't seriously see that as comparable can you? It's ridiculously irrelevant. You're talking about cookies for goodness sake. Now maybe I'm just not a cookie connoisseur but if they stop making a cookie I like, I just buy a different cookie. I can do that because I haven't already invested anything in the other cookie. I haven't already bought 5 of those cookies and need a sixth one to complete my interest in that brand of cookie.

You're asking why companies might try to keep their customers happy?

Geneon DIDN'T fold. The Parent Company closed down an unprofitable division, seeking to contract the business out to local workers.

Yes, but again, this is a shojo anime with crossover appeal.

ADV stopped production on a lot of Sojitz titles, including DMC, which actually did make money for them. And there's never been a show they haven't finished-even Dunbine.

The fact that they forced ADV to delay their dvds more than once is enough evidence that Sojitz was in the black-mail game.

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Red Garden had cross-over appeal potential as well. But potential doesn't mean it was actually reaching that.

It made it through five volumes, while Geneon couldn't even get to the fourth volume of Hellsing Ultimate before folding.

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Wallflower bombed for ADV and thus they stopped releasing it after volume 3.

They stopped releasing it, because Sojitz screwed them out of the license.

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Where is your evidence that ADV was doing just fine and was an innocent victim to Sojitz's shennanigans?

The fact that they got Clannad(and even Kiba) and still managed have stuff to sell for the rest of the year...? It's not like Geneon, where they just bought a bunch of mediocre shows, and stacked them on the shelves.

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And what plans would those be? They had it for a while but they never even got around to starting real production or announcing any plans.

See bayoab's response below your response.

HitokiriShadow wrote:

Cait wrote: ADV didn't exactly make a "mistake." They didn't drop their licenses or go under because of poor business decisions. Really? How do you know that? Where is your evidence that ADV was doing just fine and was an innocent victim to Sojitz's shennanigans?

First and foremost, where is your evidence that they weren't? I don't feel like I should be forced to provide "evidence" to support an open claim (especially when my wording was "didn't exactly," not "didn't") when the person demanding said evidence provides nothing to the contrary.

Anyway, as I recall, many of the licenses in question were pulled previously from ADVs site and line-up some time in the middle of the release schedule, then re-added, then finally dropped again just before the street date for NHK volume 5. It's clear that they were trying to work out their licensing deal/issues with Sojitz and were ultimately unable to. In the end, ADV didn't shut down operations as a result of this debacle. They dusted themselves off and licensed some new series. Clearly, my arguments that they "didn't drop their licenses" (since they were taken by Sojitz and sold instead to Funimation) and that they "didn't go under" (considering they are still licensing and releasing titles) are pretty sound. I don't know where the problem with my comments are here.

When did I mention Red Garden, let alone the UK release? My problem and complaint is specifically in regards to Welcome to the NHK volume 6, in the US. There is no evidence at all that they would "lose money" by doing a limited print run of the volume for the collectors.

I'm mad at everyone involved, though I would take issue with the assumption that this all happened because ADV made all the mistakes and ultimately no one else is to blame for anything.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean it was actually selling well, and evidence suggests it bombed.

They stopped releasing Wallflower while they were still releasing everything else, so Sojitz couldn't be the reason for that.

but it in no indicates who was at fault or what was going on. Its certainly a far cry from supporting that some company was engaged in a "black-mail game."

What does that have to do with Wallflower or Red Garden selling well? Geneon had major problems of similar nature (Japanese company pulling the plug) but not identical to what ADV had, but that doesn't indicate how well any individual title did.

You can't get much more mainstream than Hellsing and it was probably doing very well, but that doesn't mean it can make up for a bunch of other titles doing poorly (like Fighting Spirit).

Red Garden was apparently doing well enough to not get canceled (like Wallflower), but that doesn't mean it was doing well, or well enough for Funi to justify continuing.

Again, ADV stopped making and releasing it before Sojitz took away all the licenses

And recall that they claimed at an earlier con that they were getting a new backer. In other words, someone else is helping them out, much like Sojitz was before. But none of that has anything to do with whether or not Sojitz "backstabbed" ADV.

But my point was that they had never gotten to actually dubbing or otherwise producing the DVDs.

Hitokiri:

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Maybe, but that doesn't mean it was actually selling well, and evidence suggests it bombed.

No evidence suggested it bombed, because ADV never got to finish it.

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They stopped releasing Wallflower while they were still releasing everything else, so Sojitz couldn't be the reason for that.

No, they delayed Wallflower, along with everything else.

If ADV has to keep changing schedules, because they have to renegotiate with Sojitz, and then Sojitz just jumps ship for their competitor, it's pretty obvious who was at fault.

Then that also disproves your argument that Wallflower was a "bomb".

You can't get much more mainstream than Hellsing and it was probably doing very well, but that doesn't mean it can make up for a bunch of other titles doing poorly (like Fighting Spirit).

If it wasn't doing well enough for FUNi to justify continuing, why did FUNi license it?

If ADV has to look for a new partner, that would suggest that the old partner was, at the very least, unreliable.

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But my point was that they had never gotten to actually dubbing or otherwise producing the DVDs.

Um, they did dub some of the show.

There is very strong evidence, as I've pointed out repeatedly

When ADV finally lost all their other titles, volume 3 had been out for nearly two moths and volume 4 was never solicited,

If ADV wasn't making enough money to make payments or otherwise wasn't living up to their end of the deal somehow then it was ADV's fault.

Because they saw a way they could make a profit with it, which is what they are doing now (sets).

You are operating under the assumption that ADV's parter must be the one to blame entirely and not a single bit of it could have possibly been ADV's fault.

Only three versions of one or a few episodes for the sake of pitching it to TV companies. That was all they did and they were not in the process of dubbing more or working towards a DVD release yet.

Did you EVER participate in those sales ADV held?
EVER?
Do you know how many dvds I got from them that were drilled or cut thru the price signalling they were returned stock (which is probably why ADV was selling them for $5)? Do you know how many I received with Best Buy price tags still on them?

When the repo man is out there hooking that car up to the tow truck it seems a lot of people try to talk him out of doing it.
If the issue on Sojitz side was missed payments, why the hell should they deal? The problem is on our side none of us know what was going on. For all any of us know, ADV had been late a couple times on their payment, or asked if they could make an interest only payment a couple times. I really can't believe Sojitz would switch business partners over 1 missed or late payment. ADV posting those titles back up could have been optimistic on their part like a gambler positive the next throw of the dice or pull of that handle will win big. Maybe ADV hoped they could buy the individual titles they had partially released & Sojitz would shop the rest. Who knows what was going thru their minds?

All YOU care about is NHK. To hell with the collectors of Red Garden or any other title ADV didn't finish, right? Special dispensation for YOU, everyone else just go away.

COMMON SENSE
It costs money to press dvds & ship them out to stores only to see them returned by the store a few months later.
Even a mail-in program just to please you all would be nice, but it encompasses a lot of work for Funi, possibly more than it's worth.
It's been stated many times sales numbers are a closely guarded secret, but I would assume Sojitz has the numbers of what sold for these titles thus Funi knows damned well whether it's worth the effort or not to do singles. With Geneon, Funi is distributing Geneon product so it was in Geneon's interest to sell singles, though we are being moved over to boxes. I really wouldn't mind if they split Shonen Onmyoji at the halfway point because, as I said, because I have 2100 anime dvds, I double-row them-singles in back row, boxes in front & turn the solid back of the box facing out. If the box has room, it doesn't bother me. I usually shove something else into the space-a related manga, a similar title. On Gundam Seed, it's other Gundam titles.

Did you EVER participate in those sales ADV held?
EVER?
Do you know how many dvds I got from them that were drilled or cut thru the price signalling they were returned stock (which is probably why ADV was selling them for $5)? Do you know how many I received with Best Buy price tags still on them?

Yeah, ADV was doing sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo well.

Oh my god.
You think I don't know what it's like to have titles vanish?
I don't have 3 volumes of Air Master on my shelf.
I don't have 2 volumes of Bobobo on my shelf.
I don't have 2 volumes of BTx on my shelf.
I don't have 3 volumes of YuGiOh uncut on my shelf.
I don't have 2 volumes of Shaman King uncut on my shelf.
I don't still have the 7 or 8 single dvds of remastered Saiyan Saga DBZ on my shelf from before Funi changed their mind & decided to issue the sets in boxes only.
I don't have the 12 dvds ADV gave us of Saint Seiya ending about 20 eps shy of the ending of the story arc & encompassing only 60 of the 120 or so Saint Seiya TV series eps.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I've never been left hanging.

As I pointed out.
1 single dvd list price $29.95.
1 $49.95 list box set 40% off-10%customer discount=$27.
So you're maybe paying about $10 more than you would to get the single in the same sale ($16.19) & you end up with 2 copies of 2 of the dvds, at least you can finish your set.
MY GOD I'd LOVE for someone to offer a sub-only box of Shaman King.
Same for Saint Seiya

Look at how many people have been irritated with ADV over their release style. Titles announced as licensed, but then never released. ADV invested in the production of some of these titles-such as Tactics-but then shelved them (I was so happy when they announced Tactics & so angry a couple yrs later when they announced they were dropping it. Thank god they finally sold it to Manga, but it was dubtitles & ADV's dub so I assume they're to blame for those dubtitles)
How many other titles did they invest in on the ground level & then drop?
How many titles did they invest in at the ground level & not break even on after dubbing & releasing?
If they knew there was an issue, why did ADV continue to dub these titles instead of playing it safe, cutting their losses & clearing up the titles.
Why did ADV have so much trouble getting titles on tv? Just about every other licensing studio manages to have several titles on International, CN, IFC, Action, but ADV rarely managed to? Could it have been their big idea of their Anime Network? Asking too much? It wasn't that they didn't have good titles, but there had to be a reason, don't you think?

When you make a claim, you need evidence. I wasn't the one making a claim and acting as if it had some sort of merit. I only suggested that people shouldn't be so quick to make assumptions and explained how Sojitz could have been well withing their right to back out. Key word is "could have." I provided a logical basis for it and I'm not saying that's absolutely what happened and dammit I'm right, I'm just asking the people who are doing such things to provide evidence for their opinions before lambasting companies for things they know nothing about.

Anyway, you are right that they didn't "drop" the licenses, but your claim that they didn't make any "mistakes" or "poor business decisions" is groundless unless you work(ed) for ADV or someone who would know their situation or know someone who did.

You didn't mention the UK, and while showing that it failed there suggests it probably didn't do too hot here either makes some sense, one doesn't necessarily mean the other and its a far cry from proof. But as for Welcome to the NHK, ADV had also stopped the dub for that at one point but apparently started it up again only after it started getting some popularity through Crunchyroll. So it wasn't doing too hot either.

I mentioned before the issue of sales drops and the ADV situation exasperating the problem. That, combined with what where likely poor sales in the first place, are why Funi is doing the sets in the first place. A limited print run sounds nice, but its probably not as easy as it sounds. Pressing DVDs still costs a lot of money and it cots even more per disc for lower print runs. There may even be a minimum number required. The problem is, what if that number is far higher than what they think they can sell? If they have to press 1000 copies but past sales indicate they will sell 700 if everyone that bought the previous volume bought it (highly unlikely), then its pretty hard to justify that. Keep in mind that they likely pressed more for typical runs, so those 1000 would cost more than usual as well.

On the other hand, they can potentially reach customers that never bough them in the first place and thus allowing them to actually make a profit or at least not go in the red on it. And those who bought the original releases can still finish it, even if its in a less than ideal manner. I am not trying to defend everything Funi does or suggest they are perfect (far from it), but lets at least keep this in perspective and understand that what seems like an easy option for Funi may not be as easy or cheap as it seems.

And I would agree with you completely on that. There is no reason to place the blame entirely at a single company's feet and there is no evidence to suggest who to blame. No one outside of these companies and a few people with insider sources that can't talk really know what happened. And that's why seeing people act like they know what happened and then spew rage vile (not you for this part) with nothing to base it on has grown quite tiring.

But I'll go another fake story route just to please you
Say the publisher for Harry Potter folded for some reason before book 7 had come out. Another publisher came along & bought up their licenses (not unlike Libre bought up Biblos after they went bankrupt), but they're a paperback company so they release book 7 straight to paperback as a box set of all 7 books.
What do you do? They don't sell hardbacks, so your nicely color-sleeved 6-volume collection is incomplete. In order to get the Highly desired Vol 7, you have to buy a paperback set.
No I don't see it would actually happen, but in the REAL world in the middle of DIRE economic stress, why are you expecting Funi to cater to what may be less than 500 fans of each title? How are they to know where to send the 500 dvds they might press so that the 500 people who did buy it can get their copies?
What if it was 200 people who bought then dvds?
Is it worth their pressing dvds & designing & printing sleeves?

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You're asking why companies might try to keep their customers happy?

It's ADV's customers, not Funi's.

CCS: If ADV had issues with payments, it wouldn't have continued its series as far as it did.

That's called folding.

While FUNimation is distributing this series on DVD, all of the production work remains with Geneon. So you can expect a consistent treatment as established with the first 2 volumes that originally released last year.

This is a matter of principle. Not only do I not have the luxury of buying two extra DVDs (regardless of how much cheaper per volume they are), I am not about to give credibility to Funimation's hypothesis that box sets are the way to go or allow them to believe that it is okay to ask fans who already own partial sets to repurchase parts of them. I simply won't do it and if that means my NHK collection remains unfinished on my DVD shelf (with the "**** you, Funimation" empty DVD case in the open slot), then so be it. But I am not going to be happy about it and I will say it again: I have every right to be unhappy and I have every right to complain about it.

wow! they continue singles of karin and when they cry from where geneon left them but not the sojitz shows? this is absolute bs considering i own all but the last volume of EACH show...

-I could still buy just book 7, unlike disk 6, without re-buying a whole bunch of the previous ones. It would be accurate if they opted to only release the 7th book as part of a set with books 5 and 6.

they release book 7 straight to paperback as a box set of all 7 books.

I said-

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they release book 7 straight to paperback as a box set of all 7 books.

My teen's friend was complaining she loved the cinnamon granola bars from Nature Valley, but they only sell them in our area in the variety box & she hates the Peanut Butter ones so she hates buying the variety box just to get the cinnamon ones. However, she does because she has no other option. I swear Nature Valley used to sell the Cinnamon bars by themselves, but apparently it didn't sell enough so they stopped or the local stores don't stock them because they don't sell here.
Life in the jungle.
It's their bat & ball so they make the rules.