Forum - View topicHonorific use in anime.
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11296 Location: Frisco, TX |
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I'm not sure an emphasis on honorifics even exists in American society. Aside from putting a title in front of peoples' names like a mister, miss, or misses, there's nothing else other than referring to our family members by either title (father, mother, uncle, aunt, etc.) or first name (as you would to brothers, sisters, cousins, or whomever you consider of equal social status).
From my experience in Asian cultures, the whole concept of honorifics is about respect, seniority, and is just a resulting by-product of long-standing tradition. It probably seems very subtle and old-fashioned to a lot of folks who aren't familiar with the practice in general, but that's the way it turned out after so many years. I don't see how dub scripts can ever truly capture the same importance because our society just never really had that kind of subtlety in the first place. If you call someone you really, really admire -sama, what else are you going to call them? Lord? Mr.? Oh, Great One? That would just sound silly, don't you think? It's not anyone's fault that a dub script can't properly translate such a nuance, but it's better than leaving it there and making the entire thing sound awkward because of differing social norms. |
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Kelly
Posts: 868 Location: New York City |
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I agree. Sometimes there just isn't a good equivalent in English. Let's take the Fruits Basket example mentioned earlier. In Japanese, honorifics are a useful tool in revealing that Tohru feels closer to Yuki, Kyo and Momiji - the only three characters she uses -kun with - than the other men and boys in the show, and because she's very polite and respectful she's extremely careful not to take that liberty with anyone else. But in English that subtlety had to be dropped, as it would have been utterly ridiculous for her to go around calling almost half the cast "Mr. Sohma", because her relationships with the other guys aren't nearly as formal as that would imply. This also caused some awkwardness in the aforementioned scene in which Haru talks her into calling Yuki "Yuki-kun" for the first time though. In English, the scene had to be tinkered with, with Haru talking her into calling him "Prince Yuki" (semi-long story) instead. Not perfect, but as close to the effect as it was possible to get. Yuki's "Honda-san", however, was kept, in the form of "Miss Honda" - and although that was also slightly awkward it was somewhat essential as it says something important about his personality (he's uncomfortable about people getting to know him too well). In fact, it actually became a slight plot point in the manga soon after the events covered in the anime. |
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Dezixn
Posts: 5 |
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Pretty sure Clannad, first season, had a good example of this.
I think Sunohara's sister was trying to get Tomoya and Nagisa quit saying san. Either that or it was a last name first name thing. I honestly can't remember, just trying to give examples and I saw no one mention clannad. |
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Kimiko_0
 Posts: 1796 Location: Leiden, NL, EU |
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Yes, I agree that honorifics are basically untranslatable. Relative social status just isn't part of English grammar. Which is of course why most subs leave them untranslated.
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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It bears mentioning that the act of translating (for instance) "Honda-san" as "Miss Honda" is just as awkward as leaving the original honorifics in place, since most of the English-speaking world has been, for the past several generations, slowly doing away with all titular usage outside the professional realm.
- abunai |
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auberginedreams
Posts: 29 |
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There is a scene in School Days where Kotonoha asks Makoto to start referring to her by her first name. Then she uses his first name and he says something like, "Oh, you're going to use mine too?"
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Yeah, personally this is a big reason I prefer subtitles, and if possible fansubs, because fansubs often enough leave these in, and if not you can at least pick them out of the dialog. Japanese writing is often so much enriched by their use of honorifics, it just sounds wrong when they aren't used, no matter hwo they attempt to transliterate them. If I worked as a localizer, I'd leave all of them in, even in the dubs, except for non-Japanese characters. So, like, Kenshin, Naruto, Bleach, everyone would use honorifics, all the time. Black Lagoon, Zero Tsukaima, Slayers, not so much. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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This isn't quite change in honorifics, but I think it is relevant because it's a case when they really, REALLY should have translated the honorific, and it's one they could have done very easily.
I haven't listened to the dub enough to know if they address it there, but recently I was watching Gunslinger Girl with my friend and I had to tell her that Jose and Jean really are brothers, because the sub never actually translated the nii-san honorific. If I had not told her this fact, she wouldn't have known of Jose meant it literally, rather than just showing respect. I really think this was short-sighted, especially because the second season of the anime contains storylines that do involve the fact that they are brothers and people who just watched the sub but didn't know enough Japanese to recognize the honorific wouldn't have a clue. I do agree that many times honorifics are not translatable, and honestly I don't think most really have any place in the dubs. Though the lady/lord for -sama does work in some occasions, if the setting is historical, like for example in Fushigi Yuugi it makes sense for them to call a character Lady Miaka, because it fits the overall setting. But anything contemporary is just weird. However, I think they work well in subtitles, since when you watch a sub you want to experience the original language more than if you are watching a dub. Last edited by marie-antoinette on Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I haven't seen Gunslinger Girl, so I don't know what relationship these two have -- but I feel I must point out that nii-san doesn't have to mean "older brother" with an implication of family relationship. It can be a general term of respect, just as nee-san, oba-san, oji-san, obaa-san and ojii-san can be. You'd use them in circumstances where you're talking to someone in a casual but respectful manner -- using the one that is appropriate to age and gender. For instance, on the frequent occasions when I visit a small Japanese restaurant in downtown Copenhagen, I generally address the proprietor's wife, who is about 10 years older than me, as nee-san. If you were there, you'd probably be excused for calling her oba-san, given the relative age differential... but if I did it, she'd never forgive me.
One sub I saw (I can't at the moment recall which one), had X-sama translated as "Oh Great X", a useful translation since the situation involved comically exaggerated worshipful respect. - abunai |
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_Earthwyrm_
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Just for the record, I've seen Gunslinger Girl and José and Jean are, indeed, actual brothers. I didn't know this until recently when I read the Manga; the subs for the series completely skipped over this fact.
It's true that a lot of the time, nee/nii-san doesn't refer to an actual sibling, but I think the subs should maybe have slipped in a hint to compensate. I was completely clueless about their brotherhood 
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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Yes, I realize that, which is why I made sure to tell my friend that Jose did actually mean it literally. Because, as I said, if I hadn't told her she probably would have assumed he was just using it to be respectful. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11296 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Yes, I concur. Asian cultures also use honorifics with a certain degree of "casual respect." For example, in Lao culture younger children are supposed to address older children as "big brother/sister" and vice versa, or parents refer to older parents (grandparent age) as "father/mother." Well, it's a little closer to "pops" or "ma'am," but it's an example of the system, regardless. You can actually see examples of this in American culture when same-aged people say "bro'/brother/sis'/sister" or the aforementioned "pops/ma'am," though its usually a result of either a tightly knit community or very friendly relations/familiarity with the other person. |
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_Emi_
 Posts: 498 Location: Langjökull |
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In Revolutionary Girl Utena, when Saionji loses to Utena, Anthy switches from -sama to -sempai, and she is careful to emphasize the change in honorific. Anthy does the same thing to Utena when she loses to Touga, although she doesn't use -sempai. I think she uses -san, but I can't be sure. In both instances, the change in honorific causes a reaction in Saionji and Utena.
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6867 Location: Kazune City |
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I think pro subtitle writer Andrew Kent made a good point about including honorifics in a similar thread over on AoD.
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Hmmm... actually, I would hypothesize that it is a characteristic of pre-urbanized/rural society that is retained in the language for a while after urbanization, then disappears. I say this because every language that I have ever learned even a smidgeon of (and that's a lot) has some sort of rural tradition of addressing people by family-related titles (whether the American "Pops" or the Danish morlil, "little mother"). I think it is a reflection of the more closely-knit nature of rural society, not necessarily a trait that relates to some nations rather than others. In that sense, what we are seeing in Japanese may simply be a remnant of the fairly ruralized culture that existed in Japan until the great urbanization period of the mid-20th century.
That's not impossible, for I see a lot of stuff -- but I seem to recall seeing Lucky Star in raws. Of course, it's a relatively obvious joke, so I suppose it occurs frequently. - abunai |
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