encyclopedia
forum
username password login remember me | register
menu_news
menu_views
menu_encyclopedia
menu_video
menu_forum
menu_myann

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Iowa Collector Charged for Allegedly Obscene Manga


Goto page Previous  

 Note: this is the discussion thread for this article
Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ariolander



Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Posts: 48
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:41 pm Reply with quote
Unholy_Nny wrote:
Ariolander wrote:
Unholy_Nny wrote:
Why aren't we afraid that saying it's OK is a step towards legalizing real child pornography?


That is comparing apples to oranges.


I could say the same thing when comparing Negima to loli-porn, but that doesn't stop people from assuming outlawing the one is a single step towards outlawing the other.


Well obscenity laws in general are a bad idea and you do NOT want to start down that bad path. And though Negima itself is just a bunch of fanservice what about legitimate manga like my Yubisaki Milk Tea that really deserve their M rating? Tokyopop actually had the balls to publish Yubisaki's has full frontal nudity of Lolis without censoring it. There is no explicit sex and is part of the clearly mature story but that is DFC none the less. A Negima doujin and Yubisaki Milk Tea? Those aren't too far apart so in this case might be lemons and organges. Not the same but at least both citrus fruits.

Likewise what about some of the stuff from Icarus Publishing? I think Righstuf has them 33% off right now but not sure if I should buy em because I know as a fact A Wish of My Sister has some pretty young looking chicks having explicit sex and some of the other titles have some hardcore incest. Swing out Sisters was in my cart as well but that features schoolgirls as well. Schoolgirl Mania has what looks to be well endowed chicks in middle school uniforms (!). Is the only safe book now Spirit of Capitalism because it centers around big breasted office workers?

I know Amazon has Eros Comix's Domin-8 Me! (aka Take on Me!) and that has a whole story arc of the 28 year old woman who looks like she is 12 cracking jokes about how only pedos and lolicons are into her. Not sure if Eros has released the second volume yet but Take on Me 2 has that whole story arc with the crossdressing shota twins as well.

If anyone has ever played the awesome Yume Miru Kusuri - A Drug That Makes You Dream they joke about lame obscenity laws and even though they all look different ages and are in different grades according to the game universe they all are exactly 20 years old so no one gets in trouble with obscenity laws.

Weather or not they will take Yume Miru Kusuri or Take on Me's story universe ages rather than loli appearances is a whole 'nother story though...

Update:
You wanna start the slippery slope of obscenity laws then you might end up with something like UNICEF Japan's recent proposal that bans "images of children in swimsuits in sexual poses as well as anime" now THAT my friends would put your Negima in danger. I think there are pleanty of fanservice swimsuits and suggestive poses in that one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
genman



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 37
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:34 am Reply with quote
Ariolander wrote:

I know Amazon has Eros Comix's Domin-8 Me! (aka Take on Me!) and that has a whole story arc of the 28 year old woman who looks like she is 12 cracking jokes about how only pedos and lolicons are into her. Not sure if Eros has released the second volume yet but Take on Me 2 has that whole story arc with the crossdressing shota twins as well.


Said 28 year old ends up essentially raping the protagonist who says he's a junior high school kid. "Take On Me 2" also begins with elementary school kids (11-12 years old I'm guessing) who experimenting with sex.

Anyway, I highly recommend both titles Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tatsujin



Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:21 pm Reply with quote
I'm an Iowan and I can safely assert that anywhere southwest of Des Moines is pretty much Deliverance territory. I'm surprised there was a Mills County judge liberal enough to throw out all but the obscenity charge.

As for the red state vs blue state bs, look at a county map of a federal election sometime. If it wasn't for Chicago, Illinois would be a 'red' state.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tyciol



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:53 pm Reply with quote
Are you saying that something like this might not happen in the north? Considering this is federal law, it's something that should be uniform throughout the country. If attitudes regarding acceptability differ then it is something that's going to need to be resolved.

Problems seem to occur when these guys are directly ordering stuff from Japan. Has it happened when they order it through a dealer who imports en masse from Japan to sell at cons or in a store or something? Somehow I think it would not happen as readily since the authorities would need to go after more people. They seem to prefer going after isolated defenseless people without representation to overwhelm them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
euphorikkboyy



Joined: 30 Nov 2008
Posts: 2
Location: 名古屋市, 日本 (for now)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:02 pm Reply with quote
I can see where both sides are coming from. But hey, one can't assume this guy is a pedophile just because he has a few loli mangas with young girls in suggestive poses. I mean, he didn't buy the manga for the sole purpose of seeing the "obscene images" (if he did, then alright I can see why he should be locked up).

First and foremost, manga is art - therefore it is not affected by section 504 of PROTECT Act which defines obscene images of minors as:

• ‘(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and

• ’(B) is obscene; or

• '(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and

• '(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;

Even if a manga were to have the odd fan service or young characters in suggestive poses - even going on to more darker, mature manga with rape, eroguro, BDSM it would most certainly be for the sole purpose of developing the story rather then satisfying one's "appetites". The people who read these stories can choose to take it for its artistic value, however more often then not less avid manga readers assume that these mangas are for sexual gratification. The fact the he had a manga collection and was arrested on him owning a FEW mangas that contained obscene imagery doesn't justify his arrest or the confiscation of his collection. If it were a collection of only loli/h-manga then alright, that's a problem. Owning a only few of these mangas out of a large collection doesn't say your a pedophille or a rapist. All it means is that one is an avid manga reader who is pretty much loves a good story no matter what genre. Loli/h-mangas have a sort of stigma that they are pretty much pointless cartoon pornography and while for some cases it is true, I doubt that one would go to the trouble of importing a manga if it were only pointless cartoon porn. Some of the best animes/manga have what one would call "obscene imagery" and yet due to the deepness of the storylines, people accept the obscenity as a way of showing the tone of the stories. This is probably done best (IMHO) in Elfen Lied. Lucy's naked in the whole first episode and yet it isn't hailed as "erotic". Instead it is remember as one of the most brutally intense introductions and sets the mood for the rest of the series. Nana (from the same series) is about 12-14 years old and is seen naked on two occasions. Neither is erotic.

On the other side, it only takes a match to start a bushfire, no?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tissuebubble



Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 49
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:59 pm Reply with quote
tyciol wrote:
Are you saying that something like this might not happen in the north? Considering this is federal law, it's something that should be uniform throughout the country. If attitudes regarding acceptability differ then it is something that's going to need to be resolved.


It is a federal law that uses the community to help decide what is "obscene" or not. So if you are in San Fransico the chances are much smaller you will be charged and convicted of obsenity than if you were in Bible belt USA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tyciol



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:38 pm Reply with quote
euphorikkboyy wrote:
I can see where both sides are coming from. But hey, one can't assume this guy is a pedophile just because he has a few loli mangas with young girls in suggestive poses. I mean, he didn't buy the manga for the sole purpose of seeing the "obscene images" (if he did, then alright I can see why he should be locked up).
I agree you can't assume that, but I am not really following why we should lock a person up for that. That's 'thoughtcrime'. It's the same as locking up everybody who watches Saw purely for the gore because we assume they want to reenact it. The odd person might, but the whole 'preemptive strike' thing can go totally overboard, and punish people who would never be a threat to anyone. If people are worried about somebody focusing too much one one aspect, it would make more sense to speak with them, and try to open them up to other interests or methods of artistic interpretation/appreciation/genre, or if unsuccessful, advise psychiatric counselling, which I think most people would be willing to take, assuming some level of morality.

euphorikkboyy wrote:
First and foremost, manga is art - therefore it is not affected by section 504 of PROTECT Act which defines obscene images of minors as:
• '(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;
Here's the problem, I agree with you, and this protects art in theory, but really, it doesn't. The problem here, is that by default, EVERYTHING lacks literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. Everything is valueless until people prove the value. So essentially, if you have something that fits the other criteria, you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent through adequately arguing the 'articness' of the material. This is something very difficult to you, because it is largely an emotional argument, where you need to be able to sway the opinions of others that it is artistic. You simply won't do this to a jury that thinks you're 'sick' or whatnot. The best bet would be if you could get professionals (university art PhDs or whatever) to come in and help argue your case. Even then, it's really not guaranteed. Getting people to call something art is a difficult thing to do. It really is entirely the wrong policy. Instead, with the 'innocent until proven guilty' approach, they should have to prove it is utterly valueless. We know very well you can't prove a negative, so therefore, everything should be recognized for potential artistic value, and we should not prosecute fictional media of any kind.

Real stuff is a different matter because people's rights to privacy are violated, rape depiction is illegal even for adults I believe, regardless of whether the adult later desires the video released or not, because it is actually the state that presses charges in situations like that I think, so only the state would have the ability to release it, which they do not.

euphorikkboyy wrote:
Even if a manga were to have the odd fan service or young characters in suggestive poses - even going on to more darker, mature manga with rape, eroguro, BDSM it would most certainly be for the sole purpose of developing the story rather then satisfying one's "appetites". The people who read these stories can choose to take it for its artistic value, however more often then not, less avid manga readers assume that these mangas are for sexual gratification.
We can't really make assumptions about what an artist's intents are, or what a reader's motives are. I think you tend to get a mix of this. Often, people have a deep artistic motive, which they will hide in a 'hentai' oriented story, to surprise people who only came looking for a quick erotic fix. Similarly, I think people hide purely erotic things (fanservice) under the context of trying to express something artistic. More often than not though, it isn't an if/or, but rather, creators desire to do both. One motivation may carry more weight than the other, but this can shift throughout a story depending upon whether it's a main plot or interim (Soul Eater's a good example of that, it flipflops, sun+moon) or as the mood of a tale progresses.

euphorikkboyy wrote:
The fact the he had a manga collection and was arrested on him owning a FEW mangas that contained obscene imagery doesn't justify his arrest or the confiscation of his collection.
This is correct, but even that is enough for a conviction if someone lacks the resources or competancy to convince others of artistic merit, which I imagine the common man does lack, for a shortage of friends with art credentials, or personal contact with the Japanese artists.

euphorikkboyy wrote:
If it were a collection of only loli/h-manga then alright, that's a problem. Owning a only few of these mangas out of a large collection doesn't say your a pedophille or a rapist.
The problem with 'collection' is that it can be taken selectively. For example, if you kept hentai together, and sectioned hentai based on genre, they could just pick the 'loli' folder and call that your 'collection' even if it were only a sub-collection and compromised only 5% of the overall H folder. It's also problematic to call it a problem too, because even if someone had a predominantly loli collection, that doesn't make them a rapist. It really doesn't make them a pedophile either, because arousal is NOT the only reason people read hentai. A lot of hentai has absurd and unique humour that non-hentai doesn't. Barring that, even if it were for arousal, I'm not going to jail someone for it, because that's still the thought-crime (or maybe emotion-crime?) concept which just makes me feel the world's getting Orwellian. There's a good gap between showing concern when you see what somebody's interests are, and prosecuting them soley based on that.

euphorikkboyy wrote:
All it means is that one is an avid manga reader who is pretty much loves a good story no matter what genre. Loli/h-mangas have a sort of stigma that they are pretty much pointless cartoon pornography and while for some cases it is true, I doubt that one would go to the trouble of importing a manga if it were only pointless cartoon porn. Some of the best animes/manga have what one would call "obscene imagery" and yet due to the deepness of the storylines, people accept the obscenity as a way of showing the tone of the stories. This is probably done best (IMHO) in Elfen Lied. Lucy's naked in the whole first episode and yet it isn't hailed as "erotic". Instead it is remember as one of the most brutally intense introductions and sets the mood for the rest of the series. Nana (from the same series) is about 12-14 years old and is seen naked on two occasions. Neither is erotic.
I don't think this guy was prosecuted for owning Elfen Lied. It is more likely erotic stuff. That's not to say Elfen Lied is out of the question, but my guess is that the materials that get persecuted are more likely to be obviously pornographic in nature. Even so, I don't like the stereotype that gratuitous sex means something does not have other artistic merit. Beyond that, exploration of that culture is in itself, pretty artistic. Obviously not everybody who watches it is foaming at the mouth, buying an unmarked van and candy.

tissuebubble wrote:
It is a federal law that uses the community to help decide what is "obscene" or not. So if you are in San Fransico the chances are much smaller you will be charged and convicted of obsenity than if you were in Bible belt USA.
This is pretty ridiculous, don't you think? I know laws vary based on state sometimes, but by city? Considering the incredibly harsh penalties for this, I think it really is something you could sit alongside state or even federal law, so it should be applied more uniformly. I think the whole nation should have input upon acceptable conduct. It's sort of like, if there is a town out there which believes in car communism, if you get lost and drive into town, can their 'car stealing is legal' bylaw excuse them taking your assets?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
CountMist



Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:30 am Reply with quote
registered just to comment on this bizarre case

This to me seems like a typical political pretense where...

...Policy makers try to get reelected by making vague but seemingly morally correct laws, which, in reality, just relocate public funds from current important issues to something with less of a priority.

...Police try to show they are doing something, because they haven't solved the last 50 homicide cases and haven't prosecuted the last hundred sexual offenders.

Below is an article, published by the Law School of Duke University, detailing a US Supreme Court Case on Visual Child Pornography.
http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/dltr/articles/2002dltr0019.html

I am begging the state officials to spend our tax money more wisely.

[off topic portion removed -t]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Webbmaster62



Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Ft. Worth TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:26 am Reply with quote
Looks like the case starts today.. Let's hope for a common sense verict.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cait
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 312
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:22 pm Reply with quote
Webbmaster62 wrote:
Looks like the case starts today.. Let's hope for a common sense verict.


Nope, it was pushed back again:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/14211.html

EDIT: I got this info from The Yaoi Review LiveJournal Community.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 298
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:28 pm Reply with quote
Webbmaster62 wrote:
Looks like the case starts today.. Let's hope for a common sense verict.


I hope so too. But if it goes to the jurors, I doubt it. Forget about ethics and objectivity. You're talking about people's deeply held beliefs here. Why do you think the postman reported this incident in the first place and the fact that the prosecutor is so zealously pursuing this?

(I really do hope to eat my words though)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Webbmaster62



Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Ft. Worth TX
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:48 am Reply with quote
configspace wrote:
Webbmaster62 wrote:
Looks like the case starts today.. Let's hope for a common sense verict.


I hope so too. But if it goes to the jurors, I doubt it. Forget about ethics and objectivity. You're talking about people's deeply held beliefs here. Why do you think the postman reported this incident in the first place and the fact that the prosecutor is so zealously pursuing this?

(I really do hope to eat my words though)




All we can do is hope. Seeing if this case goes to the SC, it's jsut gonna get thrown out again so I hope we can settle it here. Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  
Page 14 of 14

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group