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Julia-the-Great
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 148
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 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:59 am |
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| AstroNerdBoy wrote: |
| Julia-the-Great wrote: | I'll probably always have a soft spot for the Tenchi series, as it was the second anime I ever watched. However, that doesn't mean I want more of it. OVA3 was, in my opinion, a trainwreck that I can't ever un-watch.  |
I'm always amused by the people who hate OVA 3 and don't want more Tenchi, yet they can't keep away from Tenchi-related topics. 
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Note my use of the word "trainwreck." I don't want to look, know that I shouldn't look, and yet I can't help myself.  |
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penguintruth
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 2497
Location: Penguinopolis
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:10 pm |
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AstroNerdBoy, as I've argued time and time again, what's in Kajishima's novels are irrelevant. He can't just decide to outline entire complex pasts and plotlines that have little relevance to the present plotline of the series in books that are supplementaries and expect people to just accept them when he gets back to working on the show.
Nobody should have to consult books to watch a cartoon. I had no problem watching the first two OVAs without looking up information. The Lupin franchise doesn't require you looking up what Lupin's father was doing in his teen years. The Gundam franchise has a lot of supplementary info books, but the caliber of the vulcan cannons on the ZZ has little weight on the plot. How many books did you need to read to watch Gurren Lagann? Zero. If a person has to read a book to enjoy a cartoon, the creator of that cartoon has failed.
Regardless of Kajishima's intentions, his execution was absolutely horrendous, cramming in all these character introductions then spending the rest of the time doing little, if nothing, to endear the viewer to the characters or pace out the story. The result is a lot of characters that add nothing to the mix and serve only to push the established characters into the background. Ryoko, Ayeka, Sasami, and for a long time Washu were as non-entities. Then they decide to cram again, in the last episode and the special, but by then I could hardly care.
It was disasterous. Noike should have just been Kiyone from the TV series and not some ridiculously bland Canon Sue. Tenchi's mother should have been Achika. Most of those other characters' existence contradicted or threw off the rhytm of the first two OVAs, and there's no forgiving that. I understand Kajishima already had plans, but he can't just expect us to ignore all the other established characters in the franchise and accept new ones that fly into the face of what's already been there. It's been utterly ruined.
Kajishima should have just sat on his ideas until he got the go ahead to do more anime. |
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J-Syxx
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:51 pm |
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| Actually, I think it would be best if someone other than Kajishima took over the series. I honestly like a lot of the stuff done by other people a lot more than his recent attempts at helming the franchise. |
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penguintruth
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 2497
Location: Penguinopolis
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:50 pm |
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| J-Syxx wrote: | | Actually, I think it would be best if someone other than Kajishima took over the series. I honestly like a lot of the stuff done by other people a lot more than his recent attempts at helming the franchise. |
At this point, I doubt the series can redeem itself. Maybe if Naoko Hasegawa took over and took some ideas from Hitoshi Okuda's manga we could get something halfway decent at least, but the OVA's already been irreversibly polluted. |
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Wellness
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:43 pm |
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| penguintruth wrote: | | J-Syxx wrote: | | Actually, I think it would be best if someone other than Kajishima took over the series. I honestly like a lot of the stuff done by other people a lot more than his recent attempts at helming the franchise. |
At this point, I doubt the series can redeem itself. Maybe if Naoko Hasegawa took over and took some ideas from Hitoshi Okuda's manga we could get something halfway decent at least, but the OVA's already been irreversibly polluted. |
Really, that isn't completely true. The OVAs could actually be good again if they took a route similar to the earlier episodes of the OVAs where they focused on one or two girls and there relationship with Tenchi or life at the Shrine. |
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J-Syxx
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 1203
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:52 pm |
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| penguintruth wrote: | | J-Syxx wrote: | | Actually, I think it would be best if someone other than Kajishima took over the series. I honestly like a lot of the stuff done by other people a lot more than his recent attempts at helming the franchise. |
At this point, I doubt the series can redeem itself. Maybe if Naoko Hasegawa took over and took some ideas from Hitoshi Okuda's manga we could get something halfway decent at least, but the OVA's already been irreversibly polluted. |
I don't know about the OVA, but the series can be. For one I really enjoyed Sasami Magical Girls Club and Kajishima had nothing to do with that as far as I know. I propose they do another new reboot with an alternate take on the franchise. Second request, every major character is included except for Tenchi himself.  |
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AstroNerdBoy
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 335
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:31 pm |
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| penguintruth wrote: | | AstroNerdBoy, as I've argued time and time again, what's in Kajishima's novels are irrelevant. He can't just decide to outline entire complex pasts and plotlines that have little relevance to the present plotline of the series in books that are supplementaries and expect people to just accept them when he gets back to working on the show. |
In the west, that is correct. We would NEVER think of doing such a thing (though the Firefly comic is considered canon to bridge the TV series and the movie Serenity).
The thing we have to remember is this -- Tenchi Muyo! is written for a Japanese otaku audience. It is not written for us in the west. We aren't even a consideration, only icing on the cake. So, if you aren't a hardcore fan like me and had no interest in learning as much as you can about Kajishima's (and still not learning it all), I guess you are out of luck (though anecdotal, I find that people newly introduced to the franchise from OVA 3 don't have the problems with it that others do).
Now, I completely understand your frustration with this. Were I not as informed, I would be too. When I saw the anime Xenosaga for example, it was clear that the anime required one to know a great deal about the game. That's because the anime is one for otaku. There are many other anime titles like that, where the writers expect the viewers to be fan enough of the material the anime is based on to know a lot of things, thus they don't have to take time explaining things.
Now, to Kajishima-sensei's defense, he DID introduce a ton of his novel and doujinshi characters in GXP. I find that for whatever reasons, many TM!R fans skipped out on that title. As such, I hear a lot of, "Who are all these new characters in OVA 3?" Well, they aren't new, even if you discount the novels and stuff.
GXP certainly isn't a favorite anime of mine, but there are a lot of good things in it, enough that if you appreciate world-building like Tolkien did, it is worth having. I rather enjoy world building and the fact that Kajishima can keep it all straight is simply amazing to me.
| Quote: | | Regardless of Kajishima's intentions, his execution was absolutely horrendous... |
True. The directors (there were two I believe) and Kuroda (who wrote the screenplay) weren't going to stand up to Kajishima, who in my mind is a notorious prima donna. They just let him do his thing and that's exactly what he did. Fans in Japan obviously didn't mind as much but I agree with you that the execution is terrible. The same story could have been told in a much better way.
| Quote: | | , cramming in all these character introductions then spending the rest of the time doing little, if nothing, to endear the viewer to the characters or pace out the story. |
Well, I've already said there were very few "introductions" because if you didn't watch GXP where all these characters were introduced in anime form, I can't help you. GXP is part of the canon, even if it is a spinoff title.
| Quote: | | The result is a lot of characters that add nothing to the mix and serve only to push the established characters into the background. Ryoko, Ayeka, Sasami, and for a long time Washu were as non-entities. Then they decide to cram again, in the last episode and the special, but by then I could hardly care. |
Did you not watch the first episode? I do believe that Ryoko and Ryo-ohki got a great deal of focus, not background. Personally, as a Ryoko fan, I absolutely loved that episode. When Noike arrives, we had a whole deal showing how Aeka and Ryoko are not just partners to take out another rival (as seen in Night Before Carnival) but truly friends. So I can't agree that all the established characters were just flushed aside for new ones because that is a wild exaggeration.
| Quote: | | It was disasterous. Noike should have just been Kiyone from the TV series and not some ridiculously bland Canon Sue. Tenchi's mother should have been Achika. Most of those other characters' existence contradicted or threw off the rhytm of the first two OVAs, and there's no forgiving that. I understand Kajishima already had plans, but he can't just expect us to ignore all the other established characters in the franchise and accept new ones that fly into the face of what's already been there. It's been utterly ruined. |
This is where I see your argument slip into emotionalism. Kajishima is supposed to allow Hasegawa-sensei's character to be in his series because AIC/Pioneer decided to start milking the Tenchi cow for all it was worth with non-canon spinoff after spinoff. Kajishima is supposed to change the name of HIS character because Hasegawa-sensei decided, "Hmmm, I'll use the name 'Kiyone' for my character," thus forcing the writers of that Tenchi movie to come up with their own name for Tenchi's mother.
As to other characters contradicting things, I have no clue where that argument comes from. The best one could argue is that because Kajishima said nothing about Tennyo, she was made up to tweak Japanese fans desperate to know about Tenchi's mother, Kiyone (and unlike people in the west, the Japanese otaku fans knew Tenchi's mother's real name was "Kiyone" because Kajishima said as much to them).
| Quote: | | Kajishima should have just sat on his ideas until he got the go ahead to do more anime. |
OK, I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Just who do you think is the copyright owner of Tenchi? Who is it that told Kajishima, "OK, make your GXP TV series first. If that is successful, you may then complete OVA 3. If that is successful, you may then create Seikishi Monogatari"?
Answer: AIC.
Kajishima did exactly what you stated. Because AIC/Pioneer were more interested in milking the cow (and OVA's have a lower profit margin), Kajishima didn't think he'd get to do more anime. That's why he started writing all kinds of things to tell the tale.
| J-Syxx wrote: | | Actually, I think it would be best if someone other than Kajishima took over the series. I honestly like a lot of the stuff done by other people a lot more than his recent attempts at helming the franchise. |
I have an answer to you from AIC's management -- "Why should we do that when he's making us money?"
As I said earlier, it amazes me that there are a few old "fans" who YEARS after OVA 3's release are still filled with rage and hatred. Then I ask myself, "Just how big a fan were they in the first place? To be angry and leave, never to return is something I understand. TO be angry and STAY angry years later is something I can't understand.
You know, when I saw the first two OVA's and the first OVA special, I saw right away that this wasn't some normal harem title, even if it is considered the father of the modern-day harem. I had to watch the series immediately after seeing it the first time because I could tell (watching it in Japanese) that there was a lot of little things going on there, both political in this universe as well as the main question, "What is Tenchi?"
My quest for answers lead me to the AFC forums and to the old AIC forums. I scoured the web for information to the tons of questions I had about the series (and there were so many unanswered questions from the first 13 episodes). That's ultimately how I ended up being handed the reigns to a small Tenchi FAQ. I then took it upon myself to learn as much as I could, feeling the frustration that the language barrier keeps English speaking fans from getting more and more of the world. I even started learning Japanese so that maybe one day, I can get the information into English.
Regardless, I do know based on the traffic the FAQ gets that there are still a lot of people who are as hungry for information as I was. Learning all this extra information is not seen as a negative, but a plus. I guess those people are like me in that they never saw TM!R as some mindless but fun anime where the goal is Tenchi picking a girl, but saw the deeper elements of the story.
I realize that I won't convince those who despise the series and really that's not my goal. I also realize that all of the old Tenchi fans who liked OVA 3 have mostly gone on with their lives as have most of the people who couldn't stand OVA 3. All that remains are the small group of people who can never get over their rage and a smeg head like me, who acknowledges OVA 3's shortcomings, but also acknowledges the positive things in the series. No wonder my backlog of articles for my blog is so small. *lol* |
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penguintruth
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 2497
Location: Penguinopolis
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:53 pm |
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AstroNerdBoy, you seem to assert that somebody who isn't a fan of the third OVA can't call themselves a fan of Tenchi Muyo, as if the OVA had always been as soulless and wretched. This is just not true. It's because I so enjoyed the first two OVAs so much that the third is unbearable. Kajishima simply has forgotten the pacing of his work, creating something that Tenchi Muyo never was before: generic.
And again, if somebody needs to read a book to watch a cartoon, then that cartoon is a failure. Maybe my mindset is entirely different than a Japanese fan, but I can't even think of many other examples of Japanese animated programs where supplementary material is absolutely necessary to understand the show. That's because studios usually have the good sense to incorporate all the important information into the show itself. And when they don't, the viewers call it shit, because it is.
It shouldn't matter where I'm from. Terrible pacing and characters that add nothing to the mix are universally bad. They could have had eight episodes explaining these characters, but much of what they did in the third OVA was a complete debasement of the established rhthym, and at some point contradiction of already established plot points.
And no, a little bit of Ryoko babying Ryo-Ohki does not make up for several episodes of basically ignoring her, especially in favor of Noike, who should go back to the land of fanfiction, because she's the worst Canon Sue I've seen since Sakuya from Tenchi in Tokyo.
Simply put, regardless of their establishment, bad characters are bad no matter how much supplementary information there is on them. It's just made worse by the fact they feel crammed in and detract from the real draws of the series. If they really wanted to incorporate material from the books, they should have done it in a way that anyone watching would have been able to easily absorb it, regardless of whether they'd read it.
If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go search Amazon and see how many books I have to read to enjoy the next episode of Flapjack. |
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Mohawk52
Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 3858
Location: Celebrating Lindsey Hawker murder suspect arrest, in Basingstoke, UK.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:01 am |
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| penguintruth wrote: | AstroNerdBoy, you seem to assert that somebody who isn't a fan of the third OVA can't call themselves a fan of Tenchi Muyo, as if the OVA had always been as soulless and wretched. This is just not true. It's because I so enjoyed the first two OVAs so much that the third is unbearable. Kajishima simply has forgotten the pacing of his work, creating something that Tenchi Muyo never was before: generic.
And again, if somebody needs to read a book to watch a cartoon, then that cartoon is a failure. Maybe my mindset is entirely different than a Japanese fan, but I can't even think of many other examples of Japanese animated programs where supplementary material is absolutely necessary to understand the show. That's because studios usually have the good sense to incorporate all the important information into the show itself. And when they don't, the viewers call it shit, because it is.
It shouldn't matter where I'm from. Terrible pacing and characters that add nothing to the mix are universally bad. They could have had eight episodes explaining these characters, but much of what they did in the third OVA was a complete debasement of the established rhthym, and at some point contradiction of already established plot points.
And no, a little bit of Ryoko babying Ryo-Ohki does not make up for several episodes of basically ignoring her, especially in favor of Noike, who should go back to the land of fanfiction, because she's the worst Canon Sue I've seen since Sakuya from Tenchi in Tokyo.
Simply put, regardless of their establishment, bad characters are bad no matter how much supplementary information there is on them. It's just made worse by the fact they feel crammed in and detract from the real draws of the series. If they really wanted to incorporate material from the books, they should have done it in a way that anyone watching would have been able to easily absorb it, regardless of whether they'd read it.
If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go search Amazon and see how many books I have to read to enjoy the next episode of Flapjack. |
I agree with most of what you state, as much as that saddens me to do, you make some very good points. If J.K. Rowling had produced Harry Potter the exact same way, I doubt it would have been the world wide best seller it turned out to be. But one has to keep in mind that Kajishima's mind doesn't seem to think outside of the island of Japan, or just doesn't care that his creation is that popular overseas to bother. I know that he's allegedly never been off the island of Japan even on a holiday. I remember having contacted him, via his blog a few years ago, about getting his first three novels translated into English. He replied that he no longer had any control, or rights to them and pointed me to Kadokawa Publishing. he wouldn't even get any royalties from them if they did become large in the world, but he doesn't seem to care about global popularity. He only works for the Japanese market, and therefore only they have access to all and any of his "doujinshi/novels". However the more I can learn about these, the more I see a trend that he has been changing his mind about which way the OVA is going. In short, he is making it up as he goes along, and has no set ending to work toward like Rowling did. Kajishima just didn't seem to care that he had missed, or signed away, his opportunity to have had a big success with Tenchi Muyo. And indeed if he had even animated what the first three novels contained , the OVA would have easily gone past 50 episodes, Why He, and AIC could not see that is anybody's guess, but knowing how episode 13.5 ended, money had a lot to do with it, and that showed with the third OVA as well. It's not like they didn't know as many asked, both Japanese, and English fans. Go figure! I have prayed that with all the increase in having other anime, or manga non-graphic novels translated that someone would have picked up the " Shin, or True Tenchi Muyo " novels, but alack so-far I am undone. I even doubt this latest "spin-off" will make it outside except by fansubs, because of the wide time gaps between franchises. He does himself no favours. 
I think it's more a case of "yeah the third OVA was a dog's dinner, but we're desperate for a more general title that isn't mostly moe/pants/fanservice wank fodder. Lets give harum another go? Get Kajishima on the phone." |
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