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mirax
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 23
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 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:54 pm |
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| gynocrat_rex wrote: | | Quote: | | I think what this conversation failed to mention is that many women read yaoi because with yaoi they can't get jealous of anyone (keep in mind this definitely isn't a majority opinion, just one of the many popular reasons why women read yaoi). If you read the same story as a shoujo, you might start to hate the heroine because you want to BE them, because you have a crush on the male lead. So you get jealous of what the heroine has that you don't. In yaoi, you don't have that, because you go into the manga with the preconception that you could never win against another guy. So you can read it and approve of the relationship without ever feeling jealous |
Please, do not speak for 'other women' when talking about yourself. "Many Women" do not read BL because they have jealousy issues that come to a head when they see a female in the mix. |
Hmm.. I didn't realize there were some fans who were very against this idea, but some people in this thread have already confirmed that they feel the same way, and I wasn't necessarily talking about myself.
My point was more that this discussion failed to mention any other reason women read yaoi other than that it is taboo and rebellious to do so. Which I think is a reason that is a much lower percentage than Casey thinks it is, especially for the older fans.
I just think the "taboo" reason is a bunch of crap, just as you feel my "jealousy" reasoning is lame. I thought I'd bring up another reason that seems to be popular with fans, based on other fans I've talked to. It is probably, too, a lesser percentage than I think it is, but that's what's so intriguing about yaoi, that there is such a myriad of reasons why women read it.
| Quote: | | If jealousy is a driving factor, can you explain why there are so many lesbian fans and creators in BL? Can you explain why there are so many female fans who also promote hentai and other forms of ero manga and comics? |
Oh these people definitely have another reason besides the jealousy factor, and I never wanted to insinuate otherwise, so I apologize if that's what my post seemed to say.
As another poster put it, she reads it because she loves men, and naked men, and naked men together, and that's it. That's another popular reason  |
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pixieblade
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 6
Location: california
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:04 pm |
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| Toshirodragon wrote: | | sekicharat wrote: | Honestly, I couldn't identify with anything that was mentioned in the article. I'm a yaoi and Bl fan and I'm nearing 30 years old and I know plenty others like me. I don't read yaoi because it's "taboo" and I don't idealize gay relationships.
I read yaoi because I can't relate at all to most shoujo manga heroines. Most shoujo involves high school aged characters with girls who are incredibly simple and can't make up their mind between boy #1 and boy #2. I simply hate most shoujo heroines. Of course, there are exceptions and I treasure Lovely Complex and Skip Beat like pure gold. But most of the time I simply can't enjoy a manga because I'm too enraged at the heroines antics. As a girl, I can't forgive her for doing things that I myself would never do. I can't seperate my feelings as a female and just enjoy the story for what it is.
With Yaoi....I can do that...
Where yaoi is concerned, many stories contain older characters who are in college or already working professionals. They deal with adult problems. I'm not a gay man so I can suspend disbelief while reading yaoi. I can enjoy it as pure escapism. If a character does something stupid, I can rage at him for being stupid but I'd continue reading to see how it resolves itself, whereas with shoujo, I'd throw the book away and hate her for making girls look so helpless and stupid.
And on a pure base level...I'm a female who's attracted to men and who enjoys reading romance and if given a choice between reading the story of 1 cute boy and 1 cute girl or 1 cute guy and 1 even cuter guy....of course I'd go for the two guys. It's simply a matter of it being more aesthetically pleasing. |
Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm 44 years old, married with a child and my parents are dead. I have absolutely NO need to rebel and no one to rebel against. I dislike most shoujo because of the inane stupidity of the girls.
Yaoi gives me a relationship that starts out far more equal than a shoujo one. Both guys are men, with all the rights, privileges and expectations of being male in the modern world irregardless of their position in bed. No heterosexual relationship will ever start that balanced. No man, no matter how liberated he is, will ever going into a relationship expecting that he's going to continue to do all the housework. |
BingBong! I completely agree. I'm from the Bible Belt, had gay friends in high school, am female, straight, and married with a great relationship with my family. I read and watch almost every genre of anime/manga, but one of the things people always forget is there's a difference between BL and Yaoi.
By definition, BL is about relationships, not sex, while Yaoi is sexual in nature. I love BL/Yaoi because I hate stupid, wimpy female characters who have to have a guy defend them. In BL, the characters each bring something to the relationship, even if one is physically 'weak' they end up becoming strong with the help of their partner. In normal Shojo anime, the girl stays weak and helpless regardless.
I'm not saying I don't like anything else, I like any show that makes me forget about my job or problems for a few hours; that could be laughing watching Wallflower or Junjo Romantica, getting all angsty reading Wild Adapter or watching Gunslinger Girl, or crying while viewing Pretear or Loveless. It's not a issue of gender, it's an issue of quality.
There's a great line in La Esperanca that hits a cord with me: "I don't care what it is as long as they're beautiful." I think in regards to the BL/Yaoi I read, that is acurate, I prefer the more effeminate characters, but that doesn't mean that I have delusions about gays or the problems they face. My cousin is a lesbian in the Airforce, I think I get it, thanks.
What bugs me about the Y-community are those people who don't know proper courtesy-screaming just because they can, harrasing people (of any form), being beligerant about other's opinions and views.
As for being embarrased about being a fan, I may not talk to my boss about it, but I have friends, co-workers, and the internet that I talk with. I mean really, how many of you want to talk to your boss or clergy-person about sex in general? 
We have to remember that this is an entertainment genre that was originally written by women for women, it wasn't created to depict actual gay relationships. There are some really awsome and really horrid shows/books out there, but its entertainment people, it's not real. |
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pixieblade
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 6
Location: california
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:14 pm |
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| animehermit wrote: | | interesting article. I dislike yaoi, personally for the same reason i dislike most anime romances, the dialog is horrible and the plot never goes anywhere. |
You should try Ice Cold Demon's Tale and Wild Adapter, both low key on the romance, but very good story plot and dialogue. |
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pixieblade
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 6
Location: california
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:29 pm |
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| Cait wrote: | | On the note of obnoxious fangirls, I would add to the discussion that most of these people are indeed children. The demographic of yaoi/BL used to be a lot oler than it has become in recent years, and probably due to the availability online of manga and anime (illegally). The same generation that is watching all their anime fansubbed is the one that has become this obnoxious and rude group that has taken over the "face" (not the actual content) of yaoi fandom. |
I think this is true for anime in general though. I've been watching anime for 15 years now, and when I went to AX two years ago I dressed my husband up as the Laughing Man from Ghost in the Shell, I actually had people come up and go "That's cool, who is he?" *ARGH!!!* Seriously, the average age of fans seem to be the 13-16 year-olds, I wouldn't expect them to understand Yaoi, but I also wouldnot allow my children at that age to read or watch ANY type of porn.
There are the people who want to understand and there are the ones who are bandwagon followers who just do things (like run around with Yaoi paddles) just because they think it's shocking. I've not had a problem with to many of the older fans, when they act their age, but I have had problems with the 30+ year-olds who think acting like their 5 is appropriate. |
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pixieblade
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 6
Location: california
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:41 pm |
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| yblees wrote: | We did a manga exchange once. I read Femme Kabuki, he was supposed to read Same Cell Organism. I thought Femme Kabuki was a pretty good story, but the frequency of the random H situations were irritating & I was never interested enough to read past volume 2.
He got to the first kissing scene in Same Cell, yelled WTF..etc, and tried to stuff my precious book under the bed because of psychological trauma....
Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I thought this was all really funny, but I've never asked him to ready any of my BL books since.
To each their own, definitely. |
HAHA yeah, we do that everytime I watch or read one of mine. My husband said he likes when I read BL/Yaoi because I do the "girly scream and cover my head with a pillow" thing and that's adorable because I don't normally act that way, but I've never made him watch or read any of my stuff. He has however. He sat through Araiso Executive Committee with me and thought it was funny. Of course he complained about the "Eww Gay-ness!" several times, but I think that was just because he likes messing with me. Guys are so wierd sometimes.  |
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Ultenth
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 229
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:52 pm |
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I think it's amusing to me that supposedly women initially became interested in Yaoi due to the supposed "equality" that would exist between male/female relationships. It obviously isn't present in most shoujo works (Koukou Debut, LoveCom, a few others are exceptions) as many of them have predatory men that completely manipulate the girl into falling for them.
But from what I know of BL (I haven't really read much, but I have friends that read a lot, and I have read some out of curiousity) it doesn't really differ that much from Yaoi when it comes to portrayals of equal relationships. Often most smutty Yuri stuff is similar (especially the stuff written for men) in that there is often a "top" and "bottom" and a lot of manipulation and forced scenarios. Girls Love on the other hand from what I've read, does seem to do a much better job of actually portraying equal and balanced relationships, where partners treat each other with respect. Boys love basically is the same as Yaoi, except they just don't show the sex, but the relationship scenarios are often the same, from what I've heard.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but in my experience (I read a wide variety of genre's) most shounen, shoujo, seinen, josei, yaoi, BL, and yuri really don't do a very good job of showing positive equal relationships. About the only genre I've noticed that seems to do it somewhat regularly is shoujo-ai (again not Yuri, as a large amount of that is written with male fantasies in mind as is often very fetishistic and manipulative).
I'd be intersting to see a poll of what people view as the genre in manga that has the most consistantly positive view of relationships. |
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sekicharat
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:32 pm |
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| war angel wrote: | I have only just recently started reading Yaoi and been sort of surprised that I liked it. I thought I hated anime romance, but it turns out I only hate shoujo romance 
I think that women are sort of in a catch-22 when it comes to sex - if women are empowered enough enjoy sex they risk being labled sluts or seen as disrespecting themselves. The heroines in the shoujo romances I have read are often in this position of "should I" or "shouldn't I" and the reader by relating to them gets vicariously put in this position as well. Yaoi gets rid of all these complications - pure fantasy. I also second the opinion that shoujo heroines tend to be weak and somewhat insulting to the female gender.
Also, I don't think anyone mentioned the potential appeal of men being depicted as vulnerable emotionally and physically, especially in a society like Japan but in America as well. The guys in Yaoi seem more vulnerable than the stoic badboys common in shoujo romance (I think Fruits Basket is a notable exeception) |
Yup, Yup and Yup. I find it funny and kinda sad that a running theme in Yaoi is that one of the protagonist is a Host or often just really promiscuous. Seeing a male character portrayed as such doesn't bother me in the slightest, yet if it were a female protagonist in the same situation, I would dislike her immensely for being so slutty.
But at the same time, when I read a shoujo manga that involves a decent guy and a girl who goes ballistic every time he tries to make a move, it infuriates me. Seriously, it's like their boobs are the holy grail! Let the poor guy cop a feel every now and then!
Ugh....that's why I can't stand Shoujo manga. It's a lose lose situation for me either way.
I agree with you on another note....when it comes to men, emotion has always been a sign of weakness...by societies norms anyway...because of that, it's become such a rare thing to see. That's the reason why I love the fact that Yaoi shows men as being emotionally vulnerable. I think I love that aspect more than anything. To see some proud Yakuza guy break down in tears is awesome! To see a workaholic salaryman admit he's in love is great!
Perhaps I just enjoy the character archetypes in yaoi more than the ones in other manga genres. I'm sick to death of the big boobed ditz or the super naive moe girl who faints when she hears the word 'sex' or basically all the characters of Love Hina. The female and male protagonist in most manga are seriously insufficient....I hate them all.
Instead, give me the cool Yakuza guy with a possessive streak, or the cute happy go lucky college student, or the overworked and under appreciated salary man,...well... under appreciated by everyone but his awesomely hot boss, that is.
All of these characters I still find interesting and enjoyable to read or watch. Perhaps one day I'll tire of them too...but for now, they're still my favorite. |
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gynocrat_rex
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 54
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:46 pm |
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@ Mirax I'm sorry if you bore the brunt of my dismissive tone. Like you, I too read what some other commenter's on here were farting out, and quite frankly-- you summarized it all, and so you got into my crosshairs. Sorry about that.
| Quote: | | some people in this thread have already confirmed |
I've seen some of the comments in this thread and sadly-- ANN forums is certainly no place to info gather on yaoi-fen. 
I hear this argument mostly from very young fans [I didn't want to imply that because a fan is 'young', they are childish] but that is a very limited scope with which to try and 'figure out' what YAOI is all about. It ranges from plot intensive drama, to frivolous romance, to outright pornography.
Like I said in my interview with 'Chicks on Anime' which wont be out till next week [??WTF??] for women, sex and arousal is largely a mental thing--and so every woman has her own approach to arousal and what arouses her. You'll never find just one reason for why some women like 'yaoi'. It's the same reason why there's no pill a woman can take to make her hot for you - we're not that simple. So when someone asks, why do you like yaoi I guess I can only answer for myself. I wish other pundits would do the same.
I also think the 'straight guys loves lesbians' schtick is BS as well, because they don't. Lesbians are people; two straight women porno types are just that-- porno types. Straight men aren't into 'gay women', they're into straight girls getting off on each other and *gasp* quite possibly THEM! |
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Goodpenguin
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Hunt Valley, MD
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:50 pm |
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Mirax wrote:
| Quote: | | I think what this conversation failed to mention is that many women read yaoi because with yaoi they can't get jealous of anyone (keep in mind this definitely isn't a majority opinion, just one of the many popular reasons why women read yaoi). If you read the same story as a shoujo, you might start to hate the heroine because you want to BE them, because you have a crush on the male lead. So you get jealous of what the heroine has that you don't. In yaoi, you don't have that, because you go into the manga with the preconception that you could never win against another guy. So you can read it and approve of the relationship without ever feeling jealous |
gynocrat_rex responded:
| Quote: | | That's the most lame thing I've heard in ages. :/ "many women" don't think that way, perhaps high school girls do--but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt by thinking they're not that shallow. If jealousy is a driving factor, can you explain why there are so many lesbian fans and creators in BL? Can you explain why there are so many female fans who also promote hentai and other forms of ero manga and comics? |
You're ripping someone way over-the-top for a perfectly reasonable take. The male-aimed 'classic' harems (as opposed to the emotional harem style of Moe today) and seinen stories have long used rather vanilla/wimpy/goofy leads for exactly the reason Mirax states. The fun for guys is focusing on the gals, a squishy male lead doesn't interfere. Mirax outlines essentially the same old formula, except now with a twist for girls (attractive boys get all the focus, no in-story gal stealing the thunder). I thought that was a great point.
I'm sure, especially here in the US, fans with a personal interest in lesbian/gay outlooks can take unique perspectives in the Yaoi/BL genres. But I'm also sure a lot of heterosexual women basically enjoy it for the simple thrills they've expressed in this discussion. The 17 year old girl looking for some romance/ero entertainment isn't suddenly going to turn into Gertrude Stein or Margret Sanger upon coming in contact with the latest Yaoi release. Being able to simply say 'I just love a good dramatic/trashy/romance release', as guy's have in the medium forever, without a second-thought would seem to be more 'empowering' than masking perfectly enjoyable fantasy behind a wall of pseudo-intellectual culture/identity points. |
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yblees
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Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 112
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:28 am |
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| Ultenth wrote: | | I think it's amusing to me that supposedly women initially became interested in Yaoi due to the supposed "equality" that would exist between male/female relationships. It obviously isn't present in most shoujo works... |
I agree with you that "relationship equality" is not present in most BL manga, but there ARE some. It's possible that people who cite this reason for liking BL are reading those.
The thing to remember is that "YAOI" or BL is not really a genre the way "Action" or "Slice-of-Life" are genres. Yaoi is more of a tag or warning label - like "R18" or "Mature", except that it's mostly written by female mangaka, and so differentiated from true "gay" stories. Within BL there is a huge variety of story types - there is even "Action" BL.
When a person describes what they like about "yaoi", they're probably only thinking of a specific subset. It's like asking; What do you like about R18 movies?
.... er the adult themes?
I could say, I like yaoi because it's written by women and non BL josei is really hard to find & much less fun to read 
| Goodpenguin wrote: |
You're ripping someone way over-the-top for a perfectly reasonable take. The male-aimed 'classic' harems (as opposed to the emotional harem style of Moe today) and seinen stories have long used rather vanilla/wimpy/goofy leads for exactly the reason Mirax states. The fun for guys is focusing on the gals, a squishy male lead doesn't interfere. Mirax outlines essentially the same old formula, except now with a twist for girls (attractive boys get all the focus, no in-story gal stealing the thunder). I thought that was a great point.
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Eehh! that does make sense. I remember reading shoujo and thinking - "Stupid girl, I would NEVER do it that way", and thoughts like that disrupt the story.
In other words wussy leads in harem manga let you NOT identify with the male character and focus on the rest. The way the lack of female characters in BL let women NOT identify with any character at all, and just enjoy the story. That's a rather interesting idea!
So I enjoyed "Hot Gimmick" because the female lead was so pathetic I was completely unable to empathise with her and could therefore sit back and enjoy the story. Liking Hot Gimmick always puzzled me
Edit: forgot to add; Ultenth, definitely read Antique Bakery by Fumi Yoshinaga. It's a good starter to josei/BL. |
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Nanook
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:49 am |
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| yblees wrote: | Wow Nanook, your post sure got some reaction!
Cut her some slack ladies, I think it's admirable that she writes what she thinks - that's what discussion forums are for after all. |
No slack required--- this is much more interesting~
The one comment that I've got to get back on, though, is the "backwater community." I'm not sure people are aware, but the whole idea of perpetual sexual liberation is a luxury that very, very, very few people have. Anywhere out of the major urban centres and attitudes get skewered up the ass-- the influence of religion and so-called "traditional values" is stil very much a driving force.
Speaking as someone of the city, and having lived in a pretty rural environment (not by choice, mind you) for about eighteen months now, I can say with confidence that things are not halfway so good for gays or sexually active girls outside the suburbs. It's easy to hark your freedom of expression down on others when you're not really aware of the conditions elsewhere, but perhaps that's why the yaoi fangirl bothers me so much. When other people aren't talking about sex-- regardless of whether they would like to or not-- and someone comes in screeching about their porn comics, everyone feels uncomfortable, and more than vaguely.
We don't all live in this great big liberated UHMERICAH that everyone seems to envision. Yaoi is not a widespread phenomenon, because even anime itself is not that widespread a goddamn phenomenon. Most people could probably tell you Naruto, and possibly Bleach, but that's it. So, maybe, having a look at the mainstream would help us better understand the niche in which we are clearly and thoroughly centered.
That said, I'm off to /u/.
Not really.
Yes really. |
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musouka
Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:20 am |
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| Nanook wrote: | | When other people aren't talking about sex-- regardless of whether they would like to or not-- and someone comes in screeching about their porn comics, everyone feels uncomfortable, and more than vaguely. |
Do you have any idea how often I've had to sit there and bite my tongue because guys on an anime messageboard are talking about "hot girls" or "I'd like to see them make out hur hur hur" and their porn or what turns them on? I agree that it's absolutely offputting, but what you seem to be missing is that no one EVER bats an eye when men do this. It's accepted for them to dissect a woman like a piece of meat in public, or ask if certain manga caters to their fetishes with impunity. Some women do the same thing and it's suddenly an epidemic of rudeness.
I'm sorry you think penises are disgusting and you wish yaoi fangirls would shut up. I just wish you'd open your eyes and see that all they're doing is partaking in a right--however obnxious and rude--that has been extended to guys since, well, forever.
And for all you guys that might be inwardly thinking "I'm not like that", yeah, welcome to the world of someone who just happens to read yaoi. I've had guys who will sit there and bitch and moan about yaoi fangirls until the cows come home, and then get offended over the term "fanboy". Stop and think about how you don't like being tarred with a negative brush either.
(I also don't like being characterized as a jealous shrew. I like female characters and I like shoujo manga. I don't care if my lead is "wussy" or "strong" as long as she's nuanced and interesting.) |
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Ishmoo
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 356
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:40 am |
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| musouka wrote: |
Do you have any idea how often I've had to sit there and bite my tongue because guys on an anime messageboard are talking about "hot girls" or "I'd like to see them make out hur hur hur" and their porn or what turns them on? I agree that it's absolutely offputting, but what you seem to be missing is that no one EVER bats an eye when men do this. It's accepted for them to dissect a woman like a piece of meat in public, or ask if certain manga caters to their fetishes with impunity. Some women do the same thing and it's suddenly an epidemic of rudeness. |
Granted, guys get a lot more leniency with regards to sexual expression, but I haven't heard too many people complain that guys "glomp" people at conventions, squeal at and/or pester others to kiss for their own personal titillation. Perhaps they do. It just doesn't seem to come up on these discussion boards. That's the kind of bad behavior that's gotten associated with Yaoi fans. Clearly those immature teenage fans are not the majority. However, they are such a vocal and irritating minority that they've painted the entire fanbase with their inconsiderate brush. |
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musouka
Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:53 am |
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| Ishmoo wrote: | | Granted, guys get a lot more leniency with regards to sexual expression, but I haven't heard too many people complain that guys "glomp" people at conventions, squeal at and/or pester others to kiss for their own personal titillation. |
You must be kidding. Here's a phrase for you to google: "The Open-Source Boob Project".
| Ishmoo wrote: | | Perhaps they do. |
Uh, yeah. They do.
| Ishmoo wrote: | | It just doesn't seem to come up on these discussion boards. |
Gee, people don't talk about a privileged group asserting their privilege? Guess that means no one has ever been groped or oggled or whistled at or hugged against their will--as has personally happened to me at an anime convention--by a guy before.
| Ishmoo wrote: | | That's the kind of bad behavior that's gotten associated with Yaoi fans. |
And how many guys would freak if I "associated" them with all the bad behavior their gender has engaged in?
| Ishmoo wrote: | | Clearly those immature teenage fans are not the majority. However, they are such a vocal and irritating minority that they've painted the entire fanbase with their inconsiderate brush. |
I'm just wondering how many of the people gnashing their teeth have actually ever held a conversation with one of those terrible, terrible fangirls. You know, like another human being instead of judging them because of their choice in reading material. |
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Ishmoo
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 356
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:13 pm |
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| musouka wrote: |
Gee, people don't talk about a privileged group asserting their privilege? Guess that means no one has ever been groped or oggled or whistled at or hugged against their will--as has personally happened to me at an anime convention--by a guy before.
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I'll have to concede the point to you on this one.
| Quote: | | I'm just wondering how many of the people gnashing their teeth have actually ever held a conversation with one of those terrible, terrible fangirls. You know, like another human being instead of judging them because of their choice in reading material. |
How does whether or not we've spoken to them change the fact that their behavior is obnoxious? Speaking primarily of those that pester gay couples to kiss, etc... the behavior itself is terribly rude. These girls probably have other very nice personality traits as well, but it's the behavior I was referring to, not their overall character. |
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