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mirax
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 23
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 Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:34 pm |
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| gynocrat_rex wrote: | @ Mirax I'm sorry if you bore the brunt of my dismissive tone. Like you, I too read what some other commenter's on here were farting out, and quite frankly-- you summarized it all, and so you got into my crosshairs.  Sorry about that. |
Pfft, no offense taken, seriously. I'm glad I got to have a nice discussion with someone who actually read my post instead of glancing over the tl;dr-ness of it.
| Quote: | I've seen some of the comments in this thread and sadly-- ANN forums is certainly no place to info gather on yaoi-fen.  |
*gigglesnort* You're probably right. I should mention at this point that I never even considered the jealousy thing until a friend of mine wrote a graduate-level paper on it and told me about it. I found it psychologically intriguing and have been stuck with that reasoning ever since. This discussion has opened my eyes a bit more to the diversity of yaoi fans, and I'm loving it. I have be honest and say I think the jealousy thing applies to me, but I also think I just fall into the category of wanting porn sometimes and yaoi fulfilling that quite well. I think it's a mixture of a lot of things, depending on the type of yaoi I'm reading; like you pointed out, there are many different types of yaoi.
But yeah, I probably should have come out and say that it was something I felt that I would just assume others felt as well. And sadly, I'm 26, so I'm saddened at my apparent maturity level 
I'm not going to be obnoxious and quote the rest of your post, but I have to say I agree with every word you said, about there being no one reason for why women like yaoi and about the men liking lesbians thing, and I look forward to next week and your interview with the CoA group! |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:32 pm |
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gynocrat_rex--
It's not really jealousy, though.
More intolerance. Maybe it's lost in the translation because I first heard it from a Japanese woman who used the word "competitive" which, yeah playing telphone 1 person says "competitive" & the next says "jealous". No, it doesn't mean one wants to go on a date with a fake character in a book (though I have heard of some gals who go there. I also heard recently of a gal who believed herself married to the Berlin Wall. It does take all kinds).
It's more no tolerance to put up with brainless, insipid, doormat-like, whatever irritating traits the characters in the shojo novel possess. For being written by gals, shojo seems full of "idealized" characters, or so I suppose Tohru/FB is supposed to be some ideal image of patience thru any amount of upheaval & torment but she just pisses me off. If I didn't like the guys in Hot Gimmick as much as I did, I'd have abandoned that title because the girl was also annoying.
Am I competitive with her? No.
Am I jealous? No.
I'm 48. I don't have time to put up with annoying characters. Don't have to, not going to.
Go ahead & come up with the precise word to describe what it is & be happy all over the place. Intolerance is the better word to me, but most people wouldn't use that word these days in that manner. (fans intolerant of shojo heroines?)
| Quote: | | Granted, guys get a lot more leniency with regards to sexual expression, but I haven't heard too many people complain that guys "glomp" people at conventions, squeal at and/or pester others to kiss for their own personal titillation. Perhaps they do. It just doesn't seem to come up on these discussion boards. That's the kind of bad behavior that's gotten associated with Yaoi fans. Clearly those immature teenage fans are not the majority. However, they are such a vocal and irritating minority that they've painted the entire fanbase with their inconsiderate brush. |
Yes, guys have way more leaway in these matters.
I really don't believe the yaoi fangirls are any more irritating than the sniggering fanboys blocking the isles a con drooling over a figuring of their favorite size K anime chick or some female cosplayer in next-to-nothing. Trust me, one hears A LOT while trying to maneuver around the logjam.
I think the issue is the subject (yaoi) & that girls shouldn't be so blatantly into a sexual genre such as yaoi is perceived. I've pointed out at a couple boards there isn't all that much sex in yaoi--less than 20% of the pages contain explicit portrayals. Most guys imagine yaoi is guys going at it every other page--sorry, I actually counted & out of 6 randomly selected (ok, japanese manga I'd picked up that week at Sanseido) titles, there was something like 6-38 pages of sex/nudity.
Out of 200.
Most of the guys I was discussing this with were shocked. Most HAVE never bothered to read yaoi & just imagined how much porn it contained.
Yaoi is more about relationships. Yeah, there are the smut-fests, but overall it's more like an R-rated movie--the plot does exist & the sexjust pads it out.
Trust me, teenage boys are FOUL. Pretty much all of them, when they are in a situation where they are comfortable are far more vulgar than teen girls. My mother-in-law & sister-in-law were beside themselves over my nephew-in-law when he was around 12-16. Never bothered me one bit because I told him if I heard him say anything like "Oh, she wants my big one" I'd go over & tell whoever he said it about what he said.
He NEVER said those things around me.
A guy my teen knows sent a picture of his prized possession to my daughter's phone for a friend & my daughter told me about it. The guy called & became very quiet when he heard mom knew about it & he overheard my comments about "it".
People accept it from guys. It's "normal". Guys say things, too. Maybe it's just the gals are higher in tone/pitch so they carry better. The guys don't squeal, they snicker & guffaw. Think Beevis & Butthead. I've met a lot of teen boys who could pass for them.
Jeez, I can't remember how many wolf-whistles & whoots I'd get walking down the street when I was 18 (I had no car & had to walk a lot). Wasn't gals doing it. One guy shouted "I love my wife, but oh, you kid!" from his truck.
And it was a guy who yelled "dykes" at my sister & I one time. We weren't even holding hands or anything.
| Quote: | | When other people aren't talking about sex-- regardless of whether they would like to or not-- and someone comes in screeching about their porn comics, everyone feels uncomfortable, and more than vaguely. |
???
A fanpoem from my Dark Shadows fandom days comes to mind
Barnabas tormenting Quentin. Finally Quentin says
"In my youth", screamed the victim, "I would have complied
And answered your questions untiring
But now there is nothing on earth that I fear
Look out, or you'll wake up expiring!"
No, we don't discuss sex in front of children, but hey, adults are fair game. Depending on the situation...My teen finally took Sorcerer Hunters away from me & banned me from reading it in public around herI'd take it to read in waiting rooms, etc. & laughed out loud at all the funny stuff (& there's so much). She was embarrassed. Hey, I wasn't hurting anyone. Wasn't making THEM read it. Life is short. Enjoy it.
I actually used to get a fair amount of attitude over reading "comicbooks" at work, so I'd fine the most graphic scene in the book & flash it at the person acting like there was something wrong with an adult reading something perceived for children. No one bugs me about it anymore at work.
My work cubicle has over a dozen posters in it including the 2 of Ginji & Ban hanging on one another from GetBackers.
What's there to be embarrassed about?
I | Quote: | | think it's amusing to me that supposedly women initially became interested in Yaoi due to the supposed "equality" that would exist between male/female relationships. |
That seems to be more a Japanese thing.
I haven't really met too many fans in the West where the sexes are fairly equal who use that as an excuse. The "forbidden" a bit--willing to defy society norms for a love that others thinks is "wrong" is romantic to a level, but again, it's not the major selling point I hear in the West.
It's like vampire stories & there's a level of romance to the idea of a guy who's lived for centuries to be willing to throw it all away for a mortal woman. There's a level of romanticism that can be seen in it. |
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Cait
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Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:41 pm |
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| Top Gun wrote: | Ah, the fascinating puzzle that is urinal etiquette. Many treatises have been written on this conundrum.
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There's actually a story one of the guys at work has told about the "rule." Apparently he was in a bus station and was on his way to the restroom when this guy came up and started panhandling. He brushed the guy off and went into the restroom to take care of business at the urinal. Well, the guy followed him in and kept harassing him about it, so the guy I work with finished up what he was doing, turned and clocked the guy. It seems it is against the "rules" to so much as speak to each other while at the urinal (let alone harass someone who has made it clear he wants nothing to do with you).
As discomfortingly amusing as this story is when I hear it, it raises questions about the "differences" between the sexes (as it is apparently not against the "rules" for women to speak to one another in the restroom). I often wonder whether these differences are merely perceived or are a reality and, if so, whether they are cultural or biological. It seems many of these perceived "differences" are culturally perceived, especially those concerning things like pornography. While it is true that many more men enjoy pornography than women, I have to wonder how much of that is due to the culture telling women that it is not okay for them to "enjoy" sex and how much is simply less of an interest in sex.
The issue of yaoi adds another strange twist because it actually goes beyond a "simple" interest in seeing two men "getting it on" the way (at least it is perceived) men enjoy seeing two women do so, and comprises more of an interest in the unrealistic romanticism of the characters and plots.
It also raises a question of what is socially acceptable to see a person of a particular gender do, and how they behave and/or carry themselves. We don't like to admit it, but it is actually more socially acceptable for women to have a wider range of emotions than men. It is one of the few areas in which women have been allowed freedom culturally. A woman acting "manly" is regarded as "cute" (and often in the new "moe" titles is subjugated to the realm of "tsundere" and objectified), but when a man acts emotionally or "femininely" it is suddenly a problem.
I work around mostly men and I have to listen to them all the time talking about how certain behavior (like crying for any other reason than being hit in the groin) is unmanly. It's like there is only one "acceptable" course for a man to take to be considered a man, and all men are compared to how well they stack up to that, while women on the other hand are allowed to have "personality" traits and express their feeling and emotions without being judged any less female for it.
To see those personifications of "female emotional expression" among men in yaoi is seemingly off-putting for a lot of people and I have to wonder whether that plays a part in the reaction that people who are not fans of the genre have about it. |
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konkonsn
Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 163
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:20 pm |
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| Ultenth wrote: | | I think it's amusing to me that supposedly women initially became interested in Yaoi due to the supposed "equality" that would exist between male/female relationships. It obviously isn't present in most shoujo works (Koukou Debut, LoveCom, a few others are exceptions) as many of them have predatory men that completely manipulate the girl into falling for them. |
I think another poster and myself covered this a few pages back, but this topic contains some rather lengthy posts, so I will forgive you this time. 
It's not the sexual equality but the social equality. Both are men and have all the exact same societal rights. Both can pursue their dream jobs without the one wondering, "Gee, I wonder why he doesn't quit, stay home, and cook for me." Instead, both men might even support the other in his goals instead of expecting one guy to drop everything and support the other in only that guy's career. With a man and a woman, it's very strongly implied that the woman will support the guy at the cost of any personal goals she might otherwise pursue (you get to see exceptions nowadays every once in a while). And best of all, in many shoujo titles, the woman is usually happy to take on this role.
It's that sort of equality outside the bedroom that's really appealing, and since, as it's been pointed out, a large amount of yaoi doesn't actually take place in the bedroom, you get to see this equality quite a bit in the story. |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:33 pm |
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I get a lot of guy ettiquette off my morning radio show.
There's a small amount of leeway in guy behavior & other countries are different.
Guys here seem pretty big on not seeming gay. One guy in the show is big on sports-towel snapping, butt-whacking, etc., but the other main guy is put off by that stuff. I believe he's said he's a stall-user if one is available. However, that one is BIG on making the show gofer do gay stuff. Lose a bet/kiss a guy or make out with a guy, or run naked around the building, etc.
I've heard guys here go off on how guys in Europe will kiss & stuff. We have that whole John Wayne bite the bullet & ride off into the sunset. The suggestion they're gay is an attack on many guys' manhood. Just listen to guys argue about "men's purses"/fannypacks. Some guys WILL NOT be seen with a fanny pack because it's like a purse while others are fine.
I still wonder how the hell the conversation got around to THAT, but if you listen to the Dead Leaves extras, Kappei Yamaguchi (yes, InuYasha. Usopp.) in a truth-or-dare-type segment (the person said something & the others had to decide if it was true or not) claimed to know how 2 other male VA's pleasure themselves (hankies or not) which turned out to be the truth & apparently was the topic of conversation at the studio when the 3 were working.
My mother-in-law was horribly upset when it came out Rock Hudson was gay because she'd always liked him. To me it seemed silly because it's not like she ever had a shot with him & his acting was still his acting whether he was gay or not.
So a certain type of gal will never like yaoi just like A LOT of guys are put off by it. And people who are put off by it seem unable to understand why others like it. It's like eating beetles. Some cultures do it, but most people here in the States would find the idea pretty repulsive.
Others view homosexuality as somehow stealing available parties of the opposite sex off the marriage market so again they would find reading yaoi wrong.
I've run into a pretty solid block of shojo fans who seem to detest yaoi. Not to mention those who see homosexuality as a sin, thus those of us who read it are deluded at best & probably worse.
It's just romantic fantasy without the annoying chicks. The director of the INuYasha anime commented in a Newtype that he softened Kikyo because he didn't like to see such harsh women. He commented that Rumiko Takahashi, being a woman, probably knew women better than he did, but he didn't like portraying it. As females ourselves, we're probably more aware of the little traits of our gender & it colors our reading of female characters in stories.
We don't really get that annoying bitchy "friend" character in yaoi that we get in shojo (& a lot of American stuff. There always seems to be that antagonistic beeyotch who always has something to say about the heroine's efforts, etc.--the character that usually manages to get her just deserts by the end of the episode/story. We often don't get much competition for the characters. Once in awhile we'll see 2 guys going after the same guy, but then the author often gives the "loser" a guy of his own--very much "happy ending" type stuff. |
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illustrata
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:19 am |
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Wow. The amount of female character hate from women themselves here is frustrating, yes, and so predictable. There are a lot of badly portrayed characters in fiction, that's nothing new; just as much as there are badly written female characters (which is, gee, probably a testament that the author isn't that good anyway, so why bother?), I can safely say I've noticed just as much, if not even more so, badly written male ones.
Ladies, I think it's time to start looking for other shoujo manga creators if the ones you've tried (and liked odd as it seems to me) can't even characterize their women (and men) well. *coughIkuemRyoandGeorge Asakuracough* |
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branewurms
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:27 am |
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I find it offensive that people still feel the need to discuss why m/m romance manga is so popular. No one ever boggles over why men like watching two chicks get it on - why is it such a mystery that women should want to watch men? It couldn't be that - GASP - we might find it arousing or anything, could it? Heaven forbid women indulge their own sexualities in the ways that they see fit.
And I have absolutely no patience with the silly old standby I keep hearing about how oh, it's because there are no "good female characters" in manga and anime. That's thinly veiled misogyny, plain and simple, and I'm sick of hearing it. While there is plenty of sexism present in the portrayal of women in anime and manga, there are still plenty of well-developed, interesting, and strong female characters as well. The last time I pointed this out using Lina Inverse as an example, I got told, "Well, she's too loud."
...What?
(I feel I should add this same lady spent the entire panel talking over everyone and shrieking piercingly every time conversation got out of hand. Not to mention, liked Shuuichi of Gravitation. But she doesn't like Lina Inverse, because Lina's "too loud." Right.)
Christ on a cracker, ladies, can we stop with the whole need to justify ourselves? We don't need to justify our own sexualities. And for the love of all that is good and holy, stop making the rest of us fans look bad by doing ridiculous crap like chasing around actual gay men like they're some kind of sideshow, or exposing your own lack of self-respect with all that disgusting female-character hate. There's no more excuse for the assumption that all fangirls are like that than there is for dismissing all female characters out of hand, but it's still pretty vile behavior, whoever it's coming from.
Last edited by branewurms on Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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branewurms
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:36 am |
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| Nanook wrote: | | I pray what you've expressed doesn't represent the entire lesbian community. |
Considering that roughly half of my yaoi fangirl friends are either lesbian or bisexual (and I count among the bisexual bunch), rest assured, it doesn't. |
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konkonsn
Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 163
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:27 am |
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| illustrata wrote: | | Wow. The amount of female character hate from women themselves here is frustrating, yes, and so predictable. There are a lot of badly portrayed characters in fiction, that's nothing new; just as much as there are badly written female characters (which is, gee, probably a testament that the author isn't that good anyway, so why bother?), I can safely say I've noticed just as much, if not even more so, badly written male ones. |
I think you're missing the point. -_- It's not that they're badly written, it's the viewpoint from which they are being written. My favourite shoujo is Beauty Pop, which has a very strong and fleshed out female protagonist. But despite the fact that she's the second best hair stylist in Japan, stands up for herself, doesn't care what people think about her, etc...these great personality traits are never mentioned by the male protagonists as the reasons why they like her. No...they like her because she's cute and because she showed her feminine side once by being afraid of the dark.
Same goes for Ouran. Why does Tamaki like Haruhi? Is it because she's confident and self-sufficient? Naw. It's cause she's so cuuuuuuuuuute!
It's similar to how women are portrayed in modern American television. Yes, you have your mentally strong women in positions of power. But their desirability is always emphasized as a highly important character trait. I'm not saying women can't be strong and pretty. I'm saying that when you have the actress playing a high-power lawyer wear a push-up bra and low-cut shirts, maybe you're not focusing on the right areas (pun intended). |
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caporushes
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:05 pm |
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Actually, interestingly, a lot of guys (in this country anyway) do prefer "cute" girls, because "cute" isn't solely looks--you can have a cute personality. Women like this, too! When a strong guy turns out to be, say, nervous about kissing or is really fond of a pet cat or dotes on his little sisters and brothers... That's unexpected, right? So it's cute! And attractive! And all of a sudden you find yourself just a little bit attracted to this person! It's not so much those qualities on their own as how they contrast to the way they project themselves. Girls do it just as much as guys, so as long as the girl is nuanced does it really matter?
Anyway, the blatant self-hate that comes from a lot of women in relation to yaoi is really sad. I don't like yaoi because I hate shojo heroines! I like yaoi/BL/shonen ai/june--whatever!-- because, well, there are more boys to go around and I like all romances! I read some shonen romances, too. As long as my needs are being met in a story I don't really care too much.
The thing I didn't like about the article wasn't that it exists, or that it questions a woman's sexual fantasy--though it is irritating when men's are investigated, either-- but that it seemed so ashamed of itself. I would like to know why we're being made to feel ashamed, and being forced to explain ourselves? The young are young and will settle down, but there's this whole undertone to the "outside" anime community (the non-yaoi fans who don't get it) that we should all be vaguely ashamed of ourselves. To see this shame come through in someone who proclaims to be a fan, in a sort of public medium like an article on ANN... Ouch. |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:49 pm |
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| illustrata wrote: | Wow. The amount of female character hate from women themselves here is frustrating, yes, and so predictable. There are a lot of badly portrayed characters in fiction, that's nothing new; just as much as there are badly written female characters (which is, gee, probably a testament that the author isn't that good anyway, so why bother?), I can safely say I've noticed just as much, if not even more so, badly written male ones.
Ladies, I think it's time to start looking for other shoujo manga creators if the ones you've tried (and liked odd as it seems to me) can't even characterize their women (and men) well. *coughIkuemRyoandGeorge Asakuracough* |
Why do I have to give up yaoi if it satisfies what I'm looking for? Out of 620 titles (over 2000 volumes counting multiple titles such as Saiyuki & Slayers as one title each & of course mulitple volumes-DBZ is about 42 volumes.), 408 are shojo titles or 198 after removing all the yaoi (because yaoi IS a division of shojo. It sure isn't shonen). It is hard to define the dif because you do have titles like Hana Kimi which ARE shojo, but have one or more gay characters.
But if 1/3rd of the titles in my are shojo, that does suggest I've sampled more than enough shojo to know I don't care for the genre as a whole. I've read almost as many shojo titles as the shonen & horror in my collection & yaoi being shojo tips that to by collection being 2/3rds shojo.
I find a lot of shojo fluffy. I commented before I have started so many of those 198 titles with the greatest of hopes the title would live up to my expectations and so many have failed miserably. The good stuff is good, but overall I find more satisfaction in shonen tales & all I want out of yaoi is some nice droolworthy art (& I mean nice butts in or out of pants & nice head/shirtless chest shots) because many of the titles are only 1 volume.
So often shojo seems a primer to what Japanese society believes girls SHOULD be. The strong chicks often have issues such as From Far Away where she sticks with her man, but isn't really what I call a strong female in the Western style. However, she wasn't a doe-eyed doormat, so it worked.
| Quote: | | And I have absolutely no patience with the silly old standby I keep hearing about how oh, it's because there are no "good female characters" in manga and anime. That's thinly veiled misogyny, plain and simple, and I'm sick of hearing it. While there is plenty of sexism present in the portrayal of women in anime and manga, there are still plenty of well-developed, interesting, and strong female characters as well. |
I'm a female & a misogynist.
OK.
Not that I detest certain personality traits in gals & have no desire to read them in my stories.
Sadly our society IS still sexist in many ways & we still see some gals who choose to get ahead by means other gals find detestible, but if I find back-stabbing one's fellow female co-workers to get ahead instead of supporting another gal in the field detestable, I'm a misogynist.
Whatever.
If I have no patience for doe-eyed, indecisive chicks, I'm a misogynist
Not judging my peers
Ok. Even though I get enough of it from my clients (life happens to them. They're in the wrong place at the wrong time & just got arrested.)
Why should I read about fake characters I would NEVER, EVER, EVER consider to have as a friend (although I fully understand the need to work with all of my co-workers regardless of how I feel about them)?
Why can't I read yaoi?
It upsets your values?
Doesn't upset mine. You don't have to read it.
| Quote: | | The last time I pointed this out using Lina Inverse as an example, I got told, "Well, she's too loud." |
...
1-I thought the topic of conversation was yaoi & shojo
2-I have never, ever considered Slayers to be a shojo title. It's shonen sword & sorcery/comedy & jiggle (Naga)
3-Lina STEALS from her teammates, BETRAYS them at the drop of a hat.
Yep, I find that to be a strong, admirable female role.
Sorry, I find Bulma far more admirable. Yeah, she originally was using Goku, but she did become someone the team could count on for scientific gadgets.
But she's not shojo, either. She's a heroine in a shonen title.
| Quote: | | And for the love of all that is good and holy, stop making the rest of us fans look bad by doing ridiculous crap like chasing around actual gay men like they're some kind of sideshow, or exposing your own lack of self-respect with all that disgusting female-character hate. |
Wow. I always correct my co-workers when they make snide comments about our gay clients or make stupid gay jokes like not bending over when going to lunch in Hillcrest (You're a chick. I think you're safe).
You seem to have more issues with yaoi fans & yaoi than I have with shojo. At least I've tried a sizable amount of shojo. How are squealing yaoi fangirls so much worse than the Beevis & Butthead male teens? Are you not guilty of the SAME misogyny you accuse those of us who detest annoying shojo heroines for insulting the female gender when YOU tell those who do this to stop because they embarrass YOU?
Why do you care what other fans think of you?
If you aren't hurting anyone, who cares what someone who doesn't know you from Adam thinks?
| Quote: | | There's no more excuse for the assumption that all fangirls are like that than there is for dismissing all female characters out of hand, but it's still pretty vile behavior, whoever it's coming from. |
You going to buy manga for me?
Or I'm just supposed to buy every shojo title there is looking for good female characters?
Do I not have the right to spend my money as I choose?
So if I choose to buy yaoi over shojo because it gives me what I want out of manga, what's it to you?
Why is there such a fuss over yaoi fans?
We've already established the so-called obnoxious yaoi fangirl is a minority & the majority of yaoi fans behave in a reasonable style.
Why do the yaoi fangirls stand out so much in this country?
How are they creepier than the otaku in Japan who buy figures with squishable boobs?
How are they creepier than the guys blocking the isles at cons around the half-naked chicks?
Are gay people so damned thin-skinned they can't tell a CHILD making an inappropriate statement to "F***-Off & Die"? I promise you if they did, those girls wouldn't bug them again & maybe not bug any other gay person again. It's sort of like the actions some movie stars take toward fans who interrupt them while they are eating, etc. Just say no.
It's not just the girls in shojo. It is, as konkonsn said, the situations also. Outside of the annoying traits, the gals often have no greater goal in life than to score the hot bishie in school or to beat him in something, but actually he secretly likes her or she likes him, but it all has to go around in circles for several chapters.
It's like they said about Dark Shadows--if the characters on the show just sat around the kitchen table TALKING about vampires, the show would have sucked. |
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illustrata
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:31 pm |
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@CCSYue:
Uh, okay.
No one's telling you to stop reading your eye-candies, but when you have to redundantly complain how the female characters in a particular series to be "doe-eyed, indecisive chicks", why bother sticking with it in the first place?
I guess what I'm really saying here is enough with the over-generalizations. Badly written female (and male too, as some of you may be conveniently forgetting) characters exist because imcompetent writers do too. |
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war angel
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:34 pm |
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| branewurms wrote: | | And I have absolutely no patience with the silly old standby I keep hearing about how oh, it's because there are no "good female characters" in manga and anime. That's thinly veiled misogyny, plain and simple, and I'm sick of hearing it. While there is plenty of sexism present in the portrayal of women in anime and manga, there are still plenty of well-developed, interesting, and strong female characters as well. |
I don't think anyone would argue that there are NO good female characters. But from what I have read of shoujo romance, they certainly seem to be lacking in that particular genre. Maybe I just haven't read the good ones. Regardless, that isn't why I like yaoi.
| branewurms wrote: | | We don't need to justify our own sexualities. |
I agree with you on this |
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konkonsn
Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 163
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:28 pm |
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| caporushes wrote: | | Actually, interestingly, a lot of guys (in this country anyway) do prefer "cute" girls, because "cute" isn't solely looks--you can have a cute personality. Women like this, too! When a strong guy turns out to be, say, nervous about kissing or is really fond of a pet cat or dotes on his little sisters and brothers... That's unexpected, right? So it's cute! And attractive! And all of a sudden you find yourself just a little bit attracted to this person! It's not so much those qualities on their own as how they contrast to the way they project themselves. Girls do it just as much as guys, so as long as the girl is nuanced does it really matter? |
What's a cute personality? Isn't that a little derogatory in itself? We associate cute with things like puppies and children. I'm not saying it's wrong to think someone is cute, but to like someone only because they're cute...yeah, I think my point still stands firm. There's not much respect in it.
| illustrata wrote: | | I guess what I'm really saying here is enough with the over-generalizations. Badly written female (and male too, as some of you may be conveniently forgetting) characters exist because imcompetent writers do too. |
I don't think anyone is conveniently forgetting anything. There hasn't been a need to bring up male characters. You're trying to make it sound as if we're being unreasonable by not including male examples too, but the sexism we're discussing by far applies to females on a greater level than men. Bringing up men is being PC for the sake of PC. |
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illustrata
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:53 pm |
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| konkonsn wrote: | | I don't think anyone is conveniently forgetting anything. There hasn't been a need to bring up male characters. You're trying to make it sound as if we're being unreasonable by not including male examples too, but the sexism we're discussing by far applies to females on a greater level than men. Bringing up men is being PC for the sake of PC. |
A lot of comments here (not saying you fall in them) reeked of double standards. That is all I'm going to say on this matter.
As for your comments regarding Beauty Pop and Ouran, haven't read Beauty Pop but I thought the whole Tamaki squeeing over Haruhi as comedy material, not the total basis for his affection. But then again, I only watched the anime, so what do I know.
There a lot of better shoujo manga out there though, you just need to know where to look. |
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