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branewurms
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 19
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 Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:46 pm |
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| CCSYueh wrote: | | branewurms wrote: | | And I have absolutely no patience with the silly old standby I keep hearing about how oh, it's because there are no "good female characters" in manga and anime. That's thinly veiled misogyny, plain and simple, and I'm sick of hearing it. While there is plenty of sexism present in the portrayal of women in anime and manga, there are still plenty of well-developed, interesting, and strong female characters as well. |
I'm a female & a misogynist.
OK.
Not that I detest certain personality traits in gals & have no desire to read them in my stories.
Sadly our society IS still sexist in many ways & we still see some gals who choose to get ahead by means other gals find detestible, but if I find back-stabbing one's fellow female co-workers to get ahead instead of supporting another gal in the field detestable, I'm a misogynist.
Whatever.
If I have no patience for doe-eyed, indecisive chicks, I'm a misogynist
Not judging my peers
Ok. Even though I get enough of it from my clients (life happens to them. They're in the wrong place at the wrong time & just got arrested.)
Why should I read about fake characters I would NEVER, EVER, EVER consider to have as a friend (although I fully understand the need to work with all of my co-workers regardless of how I feel about them)? |
So basically, you hate women for what a sexist society turns them into. Yep, that's real supportive.
| Quote: | Why can't I read yaoi?
It upsets your values?
Doesn't upset mine. You don't have to read it. |
Uh. When did I say you couldn't read yaoi? Did you even read the post? I'm a BL fan. I said I was sick of being questioned on why I like BL, and sick of hearing other women give ridiculous (and often misogynist) excuses for something they shouldn't need to defend or explain in the first place.
Why should ladies like reading about beautiful men with idealized bodies getting it on with each other? Oh gee, I wonder. Maybe because it's... I don't know... hot?
It's a patently ridiculous question with an obvious answer in the first place. But people are so bowled over by the concept that GASP, women can actually have sexualities?! Women can actually like looking at porn?! that they keep asking why over and over again, as if there's got to be some deep reason other than horniness.
| Quote: |
1-I thought the topic of conversation was yaoi & shojo |
The topic is yaoi. Period. Misogyny comes up because ladies feel they have to defend their right to look at porn and say silly things like, "oh, I just don't like female characters."
| Quote: | 3-Lina STEALS from her teammates, BETRAYS them at the drop of a hat.
Yep, I find that to be a strong, admirable female role. |
Wow, um. So basically you require female characters to be nigh-flawless in order to be "admirable"? You don't find a character who is willing to sacrifice herself to save her friends and the world admirable because she's greedy? There's a reason you don't find many perfect characters in fiction. Because they are bad characters. Flawlessness makes for uninteresting fiction.
I don't know you from adam, and I don't know what male characters you like or admire, but most of the people I've encountered who hold female characters (and often females in general) to impossibly high standards don't hold male characters to the same standards at all. Which is essentially the point I'm trying to make here.
If you claim you're into yaoi because the characters are so much better, you're full of crap. Yaoi more often than not enacts the same f-ed up gender roles and has the same sort of passive, doe-eyed, indecisive characters you claim to hate playing the bottom. Do you like Gravitation? Love Mode? Junjou Romantica? Gorgeous Carat? Well, those are all full of exactly that type of character.
| Quote: | | You seem to have more issues with yaoi fans & yaoi than I have with shojo. At least I've tried a sizable amount of shojo. How are squealing yaoi fangirls so much worse than the Beevis & Butthead male teens? Are you not guilty of the SAME misogyny you accuse those of us who detest annoying shojo heroines for insulting the female gender when YOU tell those who do this to stop because they embarrass YOU? |
Again, uh, I'm a huge yaoi fan and have about two gigs worth of scanlations of the stuff on my computers. I have nothing against squealing yaoi fangirls. I am one. Flailing is one of my favorite hobbies.
I shouldn't have said the "making the rest of us look bad" remark. That was me totally missing the point. The point isn't how misogynist fangirls embarrass me, it's how they defeat themselves and their fellow women. If we're ever going to defeat gender stereotypes and sexist oppression, we have to be alert to the ways in which society has programed our expectations of the genders, and the way society has programmed us, as women, to behave.
Misogynist fangirls certainly aren't any worse than misogynist fanboys. I never said they were. But I would think that most women would want to be a part of empowering and liberation of their own sex, not acting as a tool of the culture of oppression.
| Quote: | | Why is there such a fuss over yaoi fans? |
That's, um, the question I was asking from the beginning. There shouldn't be a fuss to begin with. Nobody should have ever needed to ask the question, "why yaoi?" It's obvious, isn't it? DUDESEX=HOT. Very simple equation there. |
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Cait
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Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:02 pm |
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| konkonsn wrote: |
What's a cute personality? Isn't that a little derogatory in itself? We associate cute with things like puppies and children. I'm not saying it's wrong to think someone is cute, but to like someone only because they're cute...yeah, I think my point still stands firm. There's not much respect in it. |
I think the key here is "patronizing." it's dimissing all of the other personality traits a woman (or man, for that matter) has and focusing on something pretty insiginificant, like being "cute." It's an easy catch-all for ignoring anyone's complaints, and/or inconvenient personality traits (like, say, independence) by reducing them to something non-threatening. It's insulting. People call me cute or ask me why I don't dress more "cute" all the time and I want to hit them. They are basically asking me to allow them to reduce their perception of me to something as inoffensive or non-threatening as possible. I am not a kitten, a puppy or a child. I am an independent adult woman with no desire to be reduced to insiginificance by a word like "cute." |
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sekicharat
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:45 pm |
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| branewurms wrote: |
The topic is yaoi. Period. Misogyny comes up because ladies feel they have to defend their right to look at porn and say silly things like, "oh, I just don't like female characters." |
Okay, first I don't feel the need to defend why I prefer Yaoi over Shoujo. I am not defending my interests. I am simply stating my reasons for why I prefer Yaoi. I watch porn, don't feel I need to defend that either. I dislike most females in general. Most of my friends are male and my female friends have been few and far between. So when I say I hate most female shoujo heroines, I am being completely honest, no excuses. I read shoujo titles like Lovely Complex, Skip Beat and KareKano because they have female characters that I wouldn't mind being friends with. The female leads in those manga are sometimes weak, but are never pathetic. They are strong without coming off as overbearing bitches and are emotional without coming off as neurotic...they are not perfect or ideal, but they are flawed in a way I can identify with. As it turns out, Yaoi tends to have more of this type of likeable flawed characters.
And with all due respect, I do not feel my reasons are "silly".
| Quote: | | If you claim you're into yaoi because the characters are so much better, you're full of crap. Yaoi more often than not enacts the same f-ed up gender roles and has the same sort of passive, doe-eyed, indecisive characters you claim to hate playing the bottom. Do you like Gravitation? Love Mode? Junjou Romantica? Gorgeous Carat? Well, those are all full of exactly that type of character. |
Same reasoning as above. But honestly, even some of the most annoying uke roles aren't even on the same level as your most annoying shoujo character. If a guy is weak, passive and doe-eyed..hell, more power to him. As long as it's not a female playing that part, I don't care. And the reason I love the specific manga you mention is not because of the "uke" role anyway....It's because I absolutely ADORE the semes in those manga. The ukes are all forgettable.
| Quote: |
That's, um, the question I was asking from the beginning. There shouldn't be a fuss to begin with. Nobody should have ever needed to ask the question, "why yaoi?" It's obvious, isn't it? DUDESEX=HOT. Very simple equation there. |
No, I whole-heartedly disagree with you on this point. The amount of back and forth in this topic should make it clear that the reason women read yaoi is NOT obvious. Everyone has their own reason. If you read it because DUDESEX=HOT, then yay for you!
Respect people's own reasons for liking yaoi, because like it or not, not everyone thinks exactly as you do. |
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branewurms
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:04 pm |
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| sekicharat wrote: | | If a guy is weak, passive and doe-eyed..hell, more power to him. As long as it's not a female playing that part, I don't care. |
Oh, that's not sexist at all.  |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:28 am |
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| branewurms wrote: |
So basically, you hate women for what a sexist society turns them into. Yep, that's real supportive. |
So my entertainment has to include characters I would never choose to be friends with in the name of supporting my gender?
How does my reading shojo over yaoi do squat? Yaoi IS a genre of shojo. Some yaoi authors write shojo also.
| branewurms wrote: |
Uh. When did I say you couldn't read yaoi? Did you even read the post? I'm a BL fan. I said I was sick of being questioned on why I like BL, and sick of hearing other women give ridiculous (and often misogynist) excuses for something they shouldn't need to defend or explain in the first place.
Why should ladies like reading about beautiful men with idealized bodies getting it on with each other? Oh gee, I wonder. Maybe because it's... I don't know... hot?
It's a patently ridiculous question with an obvious answer in the first place. But people are so bowled over by the concept that GASP, women can actually have sexualities?! Women can actually like looking at porn?! that they keep asking why over and over again, as if there's got to be some deep reason other than horniness. |
Women also like romance, or so all the experts keep telling us that Men are from Mars, etc. So who says I even have to read yaoi for sex? Why can't I read it for the romantic angle, but not have to deal with the author trying to humanize the gal by giving her traits I dislike in people I know?
However, it's not just guys complaining about yaoi fangirls--there is a solid section of shojo fans who freak at yaoi (which I find strange in itself if just because of all the underlying BL one finds in shojo. Yes there are many straight hetero shojo titles, but it also seems we get a share of hinted BL in many shojo titles.)
| branewurms wrote: |
The topic is yaoi. Period. Misogyny comes up because ladies feel they have to defend their right to look at porn and say silly things like, "oh, I just don't like female characters." |
No, it's not female characters in general, but certain ones. Watase commented Japan likes the "idiot" hero, so to humanize their heroines, shojo artists add annoying quirks some of us don't want to put up with.
I sad there are some good female characters. I just don't like having to put iup with the annoying ones unless the payoff is worth it. Orihime is annoying as hell, but I like Gin & Aizen, as well as Hanataro, so I can deal with her.
| branewurms wrote: |
Wow, um. So basically you require female characters to be nigh-flawless in order to be "admirable"? You don't find a character who is willing to sacrifice herself to save her friends and the world admirable because she's greedy? There's a reason you don't find many perfect characters in fiction. Because they are bad characters. Flawlessness makes for uninteresting fiction. |
Lina is interesting, but she is annoying.
I like Xellos & Zelgadis & I feel very sorry for Goury how Lina treats him so no, she's an annoying beeyotch.
| branewurms wrote: |
I don't know you from adam, and I don't know what male characters you like or admire, but most of the people I've encountered who hold female characters (and often females in general) to impossibly high standards don't hold male characters to the same standards at all. Which is essentially the point I'm trying to make here. |
Maybe we hold ourselves to a high standard.
Because all it takes is something like Paris Hilton running around to give guys an excuse to say "Yeah, women are like that", but I can't dislike Paris Hilton because I have to support her for being a chick?
| branewurms wrote: |
If you claim you're into yaoi because the characters are so much better, you're full of crap. Yaoi more often than not enacts the same f-ed up gender roles and has the same sort of passive, doe-eyed, indecisive characters you claim to hate playing the bottom. Do you like Gravitation? |
I like K.
| branewurms wrote: |
Love Mode? |
Not so much.
| branewurms wrote: |
Junjou Romantica? |
The seme
The ukes in this one are all pretty annoying.
| branewurms wrote: |
Gorgeous Carat? |
The seme & the art. I like You Higuri's art.
| branewurms wrote: | | Well, those are all full of exactly that type of character. |
...
The uke in Love Mode is not at all like the uke in Gorgeous Carat. Nor is he like Shuichi. Nor the punk in Romantica.
And did you ever consider maybe some of us find it more annoying to find girls portrayed with negative traits we feel continue to spread stereotypes of women? I don't care if a guy is portrayed as moody.
| branewurms wrote: |
Again, uh, I'm a huge yaoi fan and have about two gigs worth of scanlations of the stuff on my computers. I have nothing against squealing yaoi fangirls. I am one. Flailing is one of my favorite hobbies.
I shouldn't have said the "making the rest of us look bad" remark. That was me totally missing the point. The point isn't how misogynist fangirls embarrass me, it's how they defeat themselves and their fellow women. If we're ever going to defeat gender stereotypes and sexist oppression, we have to be alert to the ways in which society has programed our expectations of the genders, and the way society has programmed us, as women, to behave.
Misogynist fangirls certainly aren't any worse than misogynist fanboys. I never said they were. But I would think that most women would want to be a part of empowering and liberation of their own sex, not acting as a tool of the culture of oppression. |
So my reading Tohru/Fruits Basket fights gender stereotypes how?
I would think my not buying shojo that has gender stereotypes of gals is more not promoting gender stereotypes by supporting it financially.
I've subscribed to Shojo Beat from day 1. It also means I am exposed to a slice of Viz shojo & frankly a lot of it I don't bother buying in the graphic novel form. I'm reading FMA, Ouran, Kyo Kara Maoh, Vassalord, XxxHolic, Tsubasa, Tactics, Jyu-Oh-Sei, Antique Gift Shop & Angel Diary besides all the yaoi, so I'm supporting the authors with them. I have most everything licensed here of Clamp. I believe supporting female artists is more supportive of promoting the cause of women than reading shojo titles just because they're shojo |
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illustrata
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:48 am |
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I have never in my life seen as much strawman tactics as I have with your post. Wow. |
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sekicharat
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:24 am |
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| branewurms wrote: | | sekicharat wrote: | | If a guy is weak, passive and doe-eyed..hell, more power to him. As long as it's not a female playing that part, I don't care. |
Oh, that's not sexist at all. |
Yeah, and your point is?
Some would argue that its sexist to say you like to watch two men going at it. DUDESEX=HOT is in no way sexist at all, right? How dare you objectify men in such a way!
I'm tired of reading about the weak and passive woman....it is boring as hell!! But if you make that character a man, I can enjoy it. Does that make me sexist? Maybe it does. I don't recall saying I was one thing or another.
But honestly....
An eye-rolling smiley?
Seriously? |
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branewurms
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:59 am |
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| CCSYueh wrote: | So my entertainment has to include characters I would never choose to be friends with in the name of supporting my gender?
How does my reading shojo over yaoi do squat? Yaoi IS a genre of shojo. Some yaoi authors write shojo also. |
Er, no. What you read or don't read has nothing to do with anything. It's the misogynist attitude that's the problem.
| Quote: | | Women also like romance, or so all the experts keep telling us that Men are from Mars, etc. So who says I even have to read yaoi for sex? Why can't I read it for the romantic angle, but not have to deal with the author trying to humanize the gal by giving her traits I dislike in people I know? |
From my pov reading BL for romance is simply an extension of reading for sex; but that's fairly irrelevant. What is relevant is the "uke" is generally humanized in that exact same way. Why can you put up with it in an uke who is clearly and unrealistically cast in the gender role of a woman, but you can't put up with it in a person actually of the female sex?
| Quote: | No, it's not female characters in general, but certain ones. Watase commented Japan likes the "idiot" hero, so to humanize their heroines, shojo artists add annoying quirks some of us don't want to put up with.
I sad there are some good female characters. I just don't like having to put iup with the annoying ones unless the payoff is worth it. Orihime is annoying as hell, but I like Gin & Aizen, as well as Hanataro, so I can deal with her. |
Ahahaha, wait, wait. You like Gin and Aizen? Yet Lina is a horrible person for being greedy? Oh wow. Oh, wow. Yeah, there's no double standards going on here, none at all.
| Quote: | Maybe we hold ourselves to a high standard.
Because all it takes is something like Paris Hilton running around to give guys an excuse to say "Yeah, women are like that", but I can't dislike Paris Hilton because I have to support her for being a chick? |
What does Paris Hilton have to do with the price of tea in China? Holding women to a different standard than men is the very definition of sexist. I dislike many of Paris Hilton's traits, and would dislike those same traits just as much in a man. Giving a silly excuse like, "well that's all it takes to make people think 'women are like that'" - don't you think you should be angry at the people who are stereotyping an entire sex's traits based on that one person? All people should be perceived as individuals, not as representative of their sex, gender, sexuality, race, creed, or anything else. If you hold a woman to higher standards, you are forcing her into being representative of her sex just as much as any man who says, "well all women must be like that".
| Quote: | | And did you ever consider maybe some of us find it more annoying to find girls portrayed with negative traits we feel continue to spread stereotypes of women? I don't care if a guy is portrayed as moody. |
So why are you angry at the character rather than the author who portrayed them that way? If a manga portrays stereotyped gender roles, that is the author's fault.
Once again, you are holding females to a different standard than you hold males. This is the very definition of sexist.
| Quote: | So my reading Tohru/Fruits Basket fights gender stereotypes how?
I would think my not buying shojo that has gender stereotypes of gals is more not promoting gender stereotypes by supporting it financially. |
Again, what you read or don't read has nothing to do with it. It's your supposed reasons for what you read.
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| sekicharat wrote: | | Some would argue that its sexist to say you like to watch two men going at it. DUDESEX=HOT is in no way sexist at all, right? How dare you objectify men in such a way! |
And those people are anti-porn. I am deeply opposed to the philosophy of the anti-pornography faction. It's simply human nature to be interested in sex, and just wanting to see people of any sex or gender having sex is not in and of itself objectifying or sexist in any way. It's natural.
| Quote: | An eye-rolling smiley?
Seriously? |
Yes, seriously. What else does an argument that essentially consists of "I hold women to different standards than I hold men" deserve? |
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dAngel
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:41 pm |
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| branewurms wrote: | | From my pov reading BL for romance is simply an extension of reading for sex; but that's fairly irrelevant. What is relevant is the "uke" is generally humanized in that exact same way. Why can you put up with it in an uke who is clearly and unrealistically cast in the gender role of a woman, but you can't put up with it in a person actually of the female sex? |
You know, it's true these same character types occur in both yaoi and shojo, but I think we tend to forget there are male stereotypes as well. So seeing male characters portrayed in a more passive and emotional role is actually sort of refreshing, and liberating... just as it is to see female characters take on roles traditionally reserved for males. So I don't think this is necessarily a fair comparison because it has very different connotations in shojo where more often the gender roles are assumed. I don't find these male "uke" characters to be particularly offensive or pathetic, whereas I might resent the same qualities in a female character because it's so common. It's a twist on a very old formula and that makes it exciting.
Personally, I was hesitant to give yaoi/BL a chance, even though I've always found the idea of two guys appealing. I admit it was mostly due to the obsessive fangirl stereotypes that people complain about. It's not so much bad behavior, but more the tendency of some fan fiction writers to slash characters whether there's a basis for it or not. Sometimes two characters are just close friends, and I think there's a sense that these few vocal fangirls have "taken over" in some fandoms. Perhaps that's where a bit of the backlash comes from?
That being said, I've started getting into BL stories and I'm sorry I ever let these "stereotypes" color my opinion of it. There are a variety of different reasons why I find it appealing, but I agree we shouldn't feel the need to explain or justify it. That doesn't mean it isn't an interesting topic to discuss though. |
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branewurms
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:36 am |
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| dAngel wrote: | | You know, it's true these same character types occur in both yaoi and shojo, but I think we tend to forget there are male stereotypes as well. So seeing male characters portrayed in a more passive and emotional role is actually sort of refreshing, and liberating... just as it is to see female characters take on roles traditionally reserved for males. |
It's certainly refreshing to see people breaking out of gender roles - there's just about nothing I find hotter than a lady with traditionally masculine characteristics kicking butt in fiction, especially if she's crossdressing. I don't really think that yaoi is shirking gender-roles, though - seems to me that it's more reinforcing them. Why is the uke, the one getting penetrated, so often very feminine-looking, submissive, flakey, indecisive, and prone to getting kidnapped or pushed around and bullied so that he can be rescued? And why are the "uke" and "seme" roles so concrete and unchangable, when they aren't at all in real life? Because it's assumed that the female readers will project themselves on the uke, and thus he has to "be like a woman". This says all sorts of unsettling things about the way women are viewed.
It's not that I'm opposed to uke-type characters having these traits at all, mind - there are many different types of people in the world, and it would be ridiculous to pretend that men with these traits don't exist. (And besides, I find many of them unbearably hot. I wanted to keep Raenef of Demon Diary chained up in my closet, holy god.) But it does bother me that they are almost always portrayed like that. Even aside from the bothersome messages I think that sends about gender roles, I have varied tastes! I like to see two manly men going at it sometimes, too! This is tragically rare, s-sob. (Thank goodness for Nanae Chrono and Vassalord. Which isn't explicit, but Christ, it doesn't even need to be.)
I don't think there's anything wrong with being dissatisfied with the portrayal of women in fiction; I'm pretty dissatisfied myself. But blaming the character? Calling her an "annoying chick"? The character is only behaving as they have been programmed to behave - just the same as many women in real life. This is what we call "blaming the victim". And I also see a lot of hate for characters who are perfectly well-developed and empathetic, because they don't fit some super-human image of perfection that many women expect out of a female character in order to like them - it all comes back to holding women to a different standard than men, which is patently sexist. |
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dAngel
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:36 am |
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| branewurms wrote: | | It's not that I'm opposed to uke-type characters having these traits at all, mind - there are many different types of people in the world, and it would be ridiculous to pretend that men with these traits don't exist. (And besides, I find many of them unbearably hot. |
Well I agree with you, variety is better than seeing the same exact formula over and over again... I do wish more authors would think outside the box, because it can get old after a while. But I think you kind of answer your own question here - it's hot, and it's a tried and true formula. There's a lot of reasons why it's popular, which I think have been discussed already.
As far as female readers identifying with the ukes... maybe. You could say it's one way to fantasize about having a more aggressive lover without having to feel guilty about it, or wonder if you're somehow "weak" or betraying your gender. Personally, I don't always find these types of female characters annoying either...depends on the story and what I'm in the mood to read. I liked Haou Airen, for example, and I don't think you get any more sexist than that. It's just that you so often see females portrayed this way in media, that after a while you start to feel like it's automatically expected and that can be irritating. With male characters though, one could choose to be either the top or the bottom... there's no sense that you have to identify with the uke, you could just as easily identify with the seme. Or you could not identify with either and just enjoy the story.
| Quote: | | And I also see a lot of hate for characters who are perfectly well-developed and empathetic, because they don't fit some super-human image of perfection that many women expect out of a female character in order to like them - it all comes back to holding women to a different standard than men, which is patently sexist. |
No, I definitely agree with you there. I like strong well written female leads, who are every bit as important and capable as the males..... but then again, sometimes I feel like stories designed specifically to portray "strong women" feel forced and almost "too perfect". Most of the time the strong female characters I like are the ones who aren't designed to make a statement...they just happen to be realistic and well written. I do think women tend to be more critical of other women than of men - because they are "one of us" and we feel more competitive. Plus...we don't want women in the way of our hot guys! I know when I'm reading porn, I'm not exactly thinking about gender politics... I just want to read something juicy.
Last edited by dAngel on Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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musouka
Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:21 am |
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| branewurms wrote: | | It's certainly refreshing to see people breaking out of gender roles - there's just about nothing I find hotter than a lady with traditionally masculine characteristics kicking butt in fiction, especially if she's crossdressing. |
I like crossdressing too, but I don't believe a woman is somehow better if she has "traditionally masculine characteristics". That's just another form of sexism.
| branewurms wrote: | | I don't really think that yaoi is shirking gender-roles, though - seems to me that it's more reinforcing them. Why is the uke, the one getting penetrated, so often very feminine-looking, submissive, flakey, indecisive, and prone to getting kidnapped or pushed around and bullied so that he can be rescued? |
Whoa, wait, what? I expect this sort of stereotyping from people that have never read yaoi extensively, but from someone that claims to be a fan of the genre, this is ridiculous. The only thing all uke have in common is that they're usually bottoms in the sexual relationship. Other than that, their characterization ranges quite a bit, as do semes'. And I can't remember the last time I saw an uke that could genuinely be mistaken for a girl, looks-wise. That's been out of fashion for years, with a few hold outs here and there.
| branewurms wrote: | | Because it's assumed that the female readers will project themselves on the uke, and thus he has to "be like a woman". This says all sorts of unsettling things about the way women are viewed. |
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. No, I'm sorry, this says all sorts of unsettling things about you. You DO realize that many women--myself included--and authors tend to identify with the seme, right? I guess not.
Please, if you're going to be defending against sexism, it behooves you to look over your posts and make sure you aren't making the same offensive generalizations. |
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branewurms
Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:44 pm |
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| musouka wrote: | | I like crossdressing too, but I don't believe a woman is somehow better if she has "traditionally masculine characteristics". That's just another form of sexism. |
Certainly it is sexist. In fact, it is one of the most insidiously sexist behaviors common among self-professed feminists: thinking that "strength" lies with traditionally masculine traits, and thus women have to essentially become men with breasts and vaginas in order to stand on equal ground with men.
Buuuut... I didn't say it was better. I said it was "refreshing" and "hot". (Boy is it hot.) I have a kink for characters that cross gender role lines in general, men in make-up and crossdressing ladies especially.
My sexual tastes aside, I'm of the opinion that a woman should be whatever she wants to be - and if that happens to be a stay-at-home mother who likes pretty dresses and jewelry, more power to her. As long as it's what she wants, and not what society is telling her she should want.
| Quote: | | Whoa, wait, what? I expect this sort of stereotyping from people that have never read yaoi extensively, but from someone that claims to be a fan of the genre, this is ridiculous. The only thing all uke have in common is that they're usually bottoms in the sexual relationship. Other than that, their characterization ranges quite a bit, as do semes'. And I can't remember the last time I saw an uke that could genuinely be mistaken for a girl, looks-wise. That's been out of fashion for years, with a few hold outs here and there. |
Er... I've read a god-awful lot of yaoi, most of it made in the last 10-15 years, and the number of traditionally "manly" bottoms I've seen have been very, very few. I've seen a great many that could be mistaken for a girl, but that's not really the point - the point is that they're nearly always much smaller and "weaker" than the seme and often have many traditionally "feminine" physical and personality traits (like, er, the whole "doe-eyed and indecisive" bit). I've maybe seen only one or two ukes ever that defied the so-called "height rule." Look at the ukes in Junjou Romantica - two of them look minuscule next to their seme, and with the only one that actually looks like an adult, they felt the need to compensate and make his seme outright gigantic.
I... really don't think I've actually encountered a BL fan that attempted to deny that most of it is very formulaic before... I mean, it's obvious, and for many fans, it's part of the point. Even for me, that's part of the point, although I like some of the cliches less than the others, and I like a change of pace now and then in general. Aside from any concerns about genderqueer politics, I just like to have choices.
| Quote: | | Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. No, I'm sorry, this says all sorts of unsettling things about you. You DO realize that many women--myself included--and authors tend to identify with the seme, right? I guess not. |
I tend to identify with both, one slightly more than the other. Whichever one I identify with most depends on the series, and whichever character I find most attractive. I certainly do realize there are many women that identify with the seme; but we're not talking about me or the women I know. We're talking about the industry.
The industry is concerned with who it thinks that women will identify with, and it thinks that most women will identify with the uke. It is a business, after all, and it's most concerned with how many copies of something it can sell, not with enforcing or with breaking gender roles or stereotypes or anything else. Whether it's correct or not in its assumptions, it will publish whatever it thinks will sell the most copies.
| Quote: | | Please, if you're going to be defending against sexism, it behooves you to look over your posts and make sure you aren't making the same offensive generalizations. |
It also behooves you assume things about the speaker that the speaker has not stated. You know what they about "assuming", after all... 
| dAngel wrote: | | I like strong well written female leads, who are every bit as important and capable as the males..... but then again, sometimes I feel like stories designed specifically to portray "strong women" feel forced and almost "too perfect". Most of the time the strong female characters I like are the ones who aren't designed to make a statement...they just happen to be realistic and well written. |
I do love female characters in traditionally masculine roles - like I said, I find them hot - but I think the fixation on having female characters be "strong" can be harmful in and of itself. I understand why it's there - like you said, there's the stereotype of women being weak, and it's obnoxious to deal with. But some women are weak, not because they're a woman, but simply because they're weak - and they shouldn't be judged as "betraying" their gender. We all have our own personal battles to fight. Furthermore, there's a lot of one-track thinking when it comes to strength and women - a lot of ingrained beliefs that a woman can't fill traditional gender roles and still be a "strong" person, and that's harmful. A character that runs a household and rears children can be just as "strong" as a character who destroys monsters with a huge sword. Child-rearing is an oft-ignored but important job, certainly equally important as any silly war.
| Quote: | | Plus...we don't want women in the way of our hot guys! I know when I'm reading porn, I'm not exactly thinking about gender politics... I just want to read something juicy. |
Well, I don't really find female characters an obstruction to begin with. I'm not thinking of gender politics when I read porn either - but I don't really see as how female characters are "in the way". Most BL don't have many female characters to begin with, which is fine and all, given that it's about two (or more) dudes... But I don't see why the presence of females is a problem in any series. |
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musouka
Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:24 pm |
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| branewurms wrote: | | Er... I've read a god-awful lot of yaoi, most of it made in the last 10-15 years, and the number of traditionally "manly" bottoms I've seen have been very, very few. |
But we're not talking about "traditionally manly", we're talking about not being "feminine-looking, submissive, flakey, indecisive, and prone to getting kidnapped or pushed around and bullied so that he can be rescued". Uke might not fall under the grunting "he man" stereotype either, but I only rarely have trouble identifying them as male--and if I do that title gets tossed back on the shalf pretty fast. I have trouble thinking of any uke that falls under more than one of those categories at a time, and its usually offset by something else.
Look, it's like characterizing every shoujo heroine as "feminine, submissive, flakey, indecisive, and prone to getting kidnapped or pushed around and bullied so that she can be rescued". Some of them might have some of those traits, but generalizing an entire demographic like that just makes me go "buzuh?" If all shoujo heroines were like that, I wouldn't have three double-stacked bookcases of the stuff
| branewurms wrote: | | the point is that they're nearly always much smaller and "weaker" than the seme and often have many traditionally "feminine" physical and personality traits (like, er, the whole "doe-eyed and indecisive" bit). |
Who decided those traits were traditionally feminine? Is the average protagonist of your shounen romance series, not short in stature, physically weak, or indecisive? Are we supposed to view them as "women"?
| branewurms wrote: | | I've maybe seen only one or two ukes ever that defied the so-called "height rule." Look at the ukes in Junjou Romantica - two of them look minuscule next to their seme, and with the only one that actually looks like an adult, they felt the need to compensate and make his seme outright gigantic. |
The "height rule" is purely aesthetic and more emphasis is put on it than warranted. I agree that some authors take it too far (Fujisaki Kou's works spring instantly to mind) but a guy being short[er] doesn't make him any less a guy.
I might as well throw out HaruDaki to "prove" that all yaoi manga has seme and uke of similar heights that trade off in bed and are both "rescued" by one another in various aspects. That would be BS--my point isn't that in some series the stereotypes don't exist, only that this "wispy, useless, cry-baby uke" is a straw man and that series should be judged on their own merits no matter what genre they're in. I don't like Junjou Romantica or its style of couples, yet there is plenty in the genre for me to read and that should be acknowledged and accounted for.
| branewurms wrote: | | I... really don't think I've actually encountered a BL fan that attempted to deny that most of it is very formulaic before... |
I didn't say the genre wasn't formulaic, I just reject the idea that it's formulaic to the degree that you put forth. I mean, come on, if you must tar the entire genre with a huge brush, let's at least admit there are other cliches and dynamics within it--such as "weak seme/strong uke"--and that things like age of the participants (a younger seme and an older uke tend to have a totally different dynamic) also have their part to play, rather than "the uke cries a lot and is the girl in the relationship, while the seme is the stoic strong man".
| branewurms wrote: | | The industry is concerned with who it thinks that women will identify with, and it thinks that most women will identify with the uke. |
Do you have anything to back this up, like a quote or something? To be honest, I don't think the industry cares, as long as people buy the books.
Last edited by musouka on Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dAngel
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:32 pm |
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| branewurms wrote: | | Well, I don't really find female characters an obstruction to begin with. I'm not thinking of gender politics when I read porn either - but I don't really see as how female characters are "in the way". Most BL don't have many female characters to begin with, which is fine and all, given that it's about two (or more) dudes... But I don't see why the presence of females is a problem in any series. |
It's not that female characters aren't likeable (I do like them!), it's just natural to be drawn to characters you find more attractive or interesting, and that's all I meant....for many women, that's the opposite gender. Yaoi cuts to the chase and puts all the focus on the hot guys. But I think someone already brought up this point...it's not unlike harem manga that focuses on all of the awesome girls. Of course, I'm talking strictly porn/fantasy/wish fulfillment here. I love female characters too, I just can understand why some women don't want them in their porn. They want male pinups. |
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