encyclopedia
forum
username password login remember me | register
menu_news
menu_views
menu_encyclopedia
menu_video
menu_forum
menu_myann

Forum - View topic
Buried Treasure - Serial Experiments Lain


Goto page Previous    Next

 Note: this is the discussion thread for this article
Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
josegodumb



Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 8
Location: fukai mori of east oakland, ca
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:56 pm Reply with quote
Lain is not buried treasure. If you haven't seen Lain then you can't consider yourself an anime fan. I watched it last year for the first time and have watched it around five times overall. It is the first mindscrew anime I ever watched and it got me into the genre. I've had this idea that if I were to become a teacher I would make all my students watch this series. In my English 5 class we read Neil Postman's "Amusing Ourselves to Death" which dealt with how new forms of media affect the way we communicate and our ideas of what truth is. Lain would definitely fit under that discussion. I LOVE S.E LAIN Exclamation
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Selkie



Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 60
Location: The Golden State
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:56 am Reply with quote
I don't care if it's buried or not, what I really enjoy are the Garbage articles. Justin does such a good job of shredding bad anime, that I laugh the whole time. Smile But as he indicated in Puppet Idol Master 2 (or whatever it was called) writing such articles dredge up trauma inducing memories, so I can understand why he prefers to write about anime he actually liked.

Until the next Buried Garbage, I must admit, I'd like another article on a newer anime, (last ten years or so) that way I might have a chance of actually discussing it. ^^ Being relatively new to anime, some of the really obscure titles made me feel like an outsider. Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail My Anime My Manga
Labbes



Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 742
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:32 am Reply with quote
Selkie wrote:
Until the next Buried Garbage, I must admit, I'd like another article on a newer anime, (last ten years or so) that way I might have a chance of actually discussing it. ^^ Being relatively new to anime, some of the really obscure titles made me feel like an outsider. Sad


I am also fairly new to anime, and I had heard about maybe 2 or 3 of the anime Justin has presented up to now, and watched two. However, I take this column as a chance to get to know some more obscure, but still fun titles from a time where I probably wasn't even born.

Of course I would like to join the discussion, sometimes, but it's also nice to see there was anime before I knew it, and it was obscure and hard to get. It's like being nostalgic about something I never experienced Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
DragonsRevenge



Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 868
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:56 am Reply with quote
I wouldnt have thought Lain to be a buried treasure, but if it's OOP already, I guess it makes sense.

I never got into it, I bought two volumes when I was really into anime, and buying tons of DVDs at a time, took months to watch the first volume, and never even unwrapped the second one. Ah well. Ces La Vie.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dangerwhat



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 150
Location: Northern Illinois
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:14 am Reply with quote
Labbes wrote:
Selkie wrote:
Until the next Buried Garbage, I must admit, I'd like another article on a newer anime, (last ten years or so) that way I might have a chance of actually discussing it. ^^ Being relatively new to anime, some of the really obscure titles made me feel like an outsider. :(


I am also fairly new to anime, and I had heard about maybe 2 or 3 of the anime Justin has presented up to now, and watched two. However, I take this column as a chance to get to know some more obscure, but still fun titles from a time where I probably wasn't even born.

Of course I would like to join the discussion, sometimes, but it's also nice to see there was anime before I knew it, and it was obscure and hard to get. It's like being nostalgic about something I never experienced :)


I know that feeling. I can remember when I first got into Anime and had similar woes. Its ok though, stick with it and you'll be rewarded. Someday, YOU'LL be in my position talking about obscure Anime that no one has ever heard of to people several years younger than you xD

I like the columns for that reason too though. There are still things I haven't heard of and I like checking things out. I can remember "back in the day" when we bought VHS tapes, sight unseen, no idea what we were getting in to. Nowadays at least you know what things are befor you see them.

....man I hate being old xD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Soldat of life
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 63
Location: Quebec(Canada)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:07 pm Reply with quote
I remember someone lending me their VHS cassettes of Serial Experiment Lain back when I was in High School. He suggested me not to watch them in one sitting. I did not comply. I didn't quite know the internet very well back then, so some things really got me confused throughout the technical terms and all. It took me about 3 viewings of the show and some help from a forum I had found back then that helped out those who were confused.

Indeed this show is slowly getting old, but I'd not call it buried just yet. Give it another year or two before it begins to sink, unless a blue-ray comes out. Then it'll rise again Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
pparker
SubscriberSubscriber


Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1054
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:06 pm Reply with quote
dangerwhat wrote:
Not to say that Lain wasn't entertaining and that I didn't "enjoy it enough" but it philosophizing or whatever does really feel like garbage - like confusing passages just for the sake of being confusing passages and not digging at any real truth. Not to say that Lain is devoid of pertinent message, its not, but overall I think it was just "trippy," as we used to say. You got your enjoyment out of being confused by it.

Not exactly analogous, but similar concept: Likely very, very few on this board were around to see Tommy when it premiered in theaters. Anyone who did thought it was amazing at the time, though mood enhancement methods (and Ann Margaret) played a part in that... But I dare anyone to try re-watching that show today. I could not finish it, and I really tried for nostalgic purposes Smile Point being it had a lot of topical significance for its time and was in fact fairly edgy and radical, and even seemed intellectual, but oh god not anymore.

Serial Experiments Lain is an excellent show, and though the philo- and pyscho-babble quotient is very high, it does present a lot of the more interesting ideas out there in a good story and quite prophetically for its time. Certainly for anime, it ranks high in terms of sophistication. But like nearly all topical and most intellectually-focused entertainment, it won't age that well. If it's not buried now, it will be soon enough.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Goodpenguin



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Hunt Valley, MD
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:38 pm Reply with quote
fuuma_monou wrote:
Goodpenguin wrote:
Of course America dropped the atomic bomb on a sleepy, peaceful Japan. A Japan that certainly hadn't been fighting one of histories most brutal, atrocity-laced race wars against it's Asian neighbors for a decade. No sir.


Yeah, A-bombing civilian targets makes the U.S. the good guys! TWICE, even!


Let's not take this to far afield, but you're clipping the sentiment out of context. A poster asked about a specific 'A cultural war against America' thread from the show. I posted an interview from the creator about it in which he 1. struggles to remember it at first and 2. fails completely to explain what 'cultural war' of 'differences in communication' are. What he does do is jump right to a 'bitter about the atomic bombings' point, which is very, very different from what was posed as some philosophical musing.

I noted, and this is far from the first time this point has been made on this subject re: Japanese/anime views on WWII history, that a portion of the Japanese are very quick to invoke the specter of war bombings as a point of lingering hostility while also very conspicuously not dealing with the fact they were brutal, violent aggressors in that war. My point doesn't minimize the impact of Japanese bombings (and by the by, attacking civilian centers was essentially how WWII fought, not an extreme outlier), but that the creators actual point doesn't mesh to what the point was given in the show, and is more or less common nationalistic revisionism. And as noted, I don't think it really affects the show, at least to my memory.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Selkie



Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 60
Location: The Golden State
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:16 am Reply with quote
Labbes wrote:
Selkie wrote:
Until the next Buried Garbage, I must admit, I'd like another article on a newer anime, (last ten years or so) that way I might have a chance of actually discussing it. ^^ Being relatively new to anime, some of the really obscure titles made me feel like an outsider. Sad


I am also fairly new to anime, and I had heard about maybe 2 or 3 of the anime Justin has presented up to now, and watched two. However, I take this column as a chance to get to know some more obscure, but still fun titles from a time where I probably wasn't even born.

Of course I would like to join the discussion, sometimes, but it's also nice to see there was anime before I knew it, and it was obscure and hard to get. It's like being nostalgic about something I never experienced Smile


I'm always on the lookout for more anime (especially pre-2000's), but when I look down at the obscure-o-meter and find the series way at the bottom it isn't very encouraging.

Ah, I think nostalgia is contagious. When one hears other people talk up their favorite memories, it seems to make others want to experience the same thing. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail My Anime My Manga
SalarymanJoe



Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 424
Location: Marietta, GA, USA
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:07 am Reply with quote
I first saw this when the first Pioneer tapes came out, probably around 2000 or so. At the time, I thought it was mediocre. The animation was nice but the story didn't seem to have a lot going for it, though a good story seemed to be obfuscated by the mysterious psychobabble.

However, seeing Justin's review of it put it a little into perspective for me. I think, as I'd been a netizen (remember that buzzword?) for several years at that point, the idea of society being crept up upon by technology and how we'd all be interconnected as LAIN described it, didn't phase me. Given the technology at the time, I was already a part of it. LAIN wasn't shocking or thought-provoking at all in that instance; however, this also may be missing the forest for the trees (or, however that idiom goes). I think that watching it now, it'd seem quaint, like a fresh install of Windows 2000 I did recently on some vintage hardware. That, of course, is the fun of speculative fiction, especially science fiction. What seems like a contemporary revolutionary idea, in as little as several years, can wind up just being a ridiculously wacky presumption (I recently experienced this watching another anime).

All that said, I might be up for giving it another try...

Henry Jones wrote:
I expected the usual Lain fight. I'm disappointed. Of course, this also means I don't have to sigh over the usual, "It doesn't REALLY mean anything! The creators just threw a bunch of crap together and laughed as fans though it actually MEANT something!" or other such comments. You really have NO idea how insulting that is to an artist. You don't have to like it. You can have problems that its confusing and difficult delivery made it so the series didn't connect with you; emotionally, intellectually, whatever. But to say that-with so much effort into designing this whole world-it's all a cosmic joke and they put as much thought into the story as if they wrote something called Super Cat Meow Pew Pew~Helper Love Eternity is a low blow. Anno would do it on a bet, I'm sure (And probably make something good out of it, too, considering how End of Evangelion is one feature-length middle finger), but I highly doubt Konaka and ABe would.


Bolded emphasis is mine: I'm glad you mentioned Anno because my exact retort would have been that, if the production had been GAINAX, then I would say that the symbolism runs a good chance of just being a tossed-in, coincidental, cool-sounding thing. LAIN, though, I'm not sure can be counted in this category.

If a bunch of fans see something there and through later correspondence (interviews, convention appearances, "free talk", etc.) they confirm those symbols than there's something to it. If they respond that "I/We thought it sounded cool ...", that's not symbolism. It might be neat how it all may connect together but still not symbolism. If you see something that's not there, you are, by definition, making stuff up.

Henry Jones wrote:
Well, I can tell you Lain hit a very specific audience that absolutely ADORES it. That's the cyber/computer culture. I know someone who builds his own computers from scratch, knows how to hack game systems and make them run whatever emulation he wants, etc. Everything he has, from the desktop to WinAmp to whatever the heck he can customize has Lain on it. Would he ever think about watching Texhnolyze? Never. I think the audience that made Lain a hit didn't carry over very much.


I'll attest to part of this, but introduce a caveat. I was into anime before I was seriously into computers. I started really getting into computers when I was fifteen or sixteen, mostly because I started hanging out with a lot of computer homebrewers. When I mentioned above when I'd first seen LAIN, it was one of my homebrew friends who'd gotten the tapes. He adored it, even with pieces of LAIN desktop themes and stuff like that on his own homebrew machine. He was also newer to anime than I was at the time.

Yeah, for a lot of people who crossed from computing to discovering LAIN as one of their first anime to watch, it was a huge hit with that population. To someone like myself, like I said, I got lost in the parallels because I was in between LAIN's 'reality' and the 'wired' in our own world.

I've never seen Texhnolyze, nor can I think of any of my computer-oriented friends who have, either.

LAIN, from what I can remember, was a huge computer-styling fad for several years after commercial release here in North America; for all I know, it probably still is, just that I've not seen anyone in my immediate circle of co-workers or friends who've used any LAIN stuff on their boxes. I know that in the past couple years, I've found myself more partial to the Red Hat guy and Sam Spade.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address My Anime
HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:41 pm Reply with quote
Goodpenguin wrote:
I noted, and this is far from the first time this point has been made on this subject re: Japanese/anime views on WWII history, that a portion of the Japanese are very quick to invoke the specter of war bombings as a point of lingering hostility while also very conspicuously not dealing with the fact they were brutal, violent aggressors in that war. My point doesn't minimize the impact of Japanese bombings (and by the by, attacking civilian centers was essentially how WWII fought, not an extreme outlier), but that the creators actual point doesn't mesh to what the point was given in the show, and is more or less common nationalistic revisionism.

This feels a bit presumptuous to equate Yasuyuki Ueda's remarks with someone like, say, Kaiji Kawaguchi (Zipang). You infer such from his reference to the atomic bomb... yet, in the same sentence, he himself says that it doesn't do actually invoke any sort of anger in him. I'm not certain that he can be classified as the type of Japanese citizen that Satoshi Kon's Paranoia Agent and Fumiyo Kono's Town of Evening Calm, Country of Cherry Blossoms (phenomenal manga, by the way; it's not in the top ten on ANN's manga rankings for nothing) are opposed to. (Though if one want's a more specific example of the "culture war" he alludes to, I'd say it's more or less about a struggle with communication and tradition: see NieA_7 for a more thorough examination of those topics).

Could you clarify your stance?

Salaryman Joe wrote:
Bolded emphasis is mine: I'm glad you mentioned Anno because my exact retort would have been that, if the production had been GAINAX, then I would say that the symbolism runs a good chance of just being a tossed-in, coincidental, cool-sounding thing. LAIN, though, I'm not sure can be counted in this category.

But the claim that "The End of Evangelion is a middle-finger to the fandom" is unfounded bull by angry viewers, as is the claim that the religious imagery isn't symbolic (not a Judeo-Christian allegory, but a displaced metaphor; see JesuOtaku's post and mine above it).

I also think that peope are downplaying some of the timelessness of lain somewhat. It is restricted due to some elements in the story, but I never took it as some type of prophetic tale to speculate on what the future is like: more of a "what-if" plot with fantasy elements that actually has timeless, universal themes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Goodpenguin



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Hunt Valley, MD
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:29 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
Quote:
Could you clarify your stance?


I think the whole 'War against American Culture' side-point is akin to when an American actor states that his latest buddy comedy has bold undercurrents railing against post-colonial hegemony, and then when pressed on the point mumbles something about Bush being stupid. Or in other words it's typical (and often harmless/baseless) trendy blather that folks sometimes toss out.

More specifically, let's look at what Ueda put in the show:

Quote:
this work itself is sort of a cultural war against American culture and the American sense of values we adopted after ww2


That's a pretty flatly political statement, not a subtle philosophical one. But how serious? Ueda doesn't even recognize it at first, and makes a joke of it next. Lets look to what he follows up on:

Quote:
when I was growing up, American culture had a huge impact on the way I am now, and while I find American culture to be very interesting, there are some things that are very complex and hard for me to understand, and the way Japan and America is now, we're on good terms, but there are still some things, there's a communication barrier, that we can't talk about certain things or we're not ready to, that we just kind of skirt around the subject of certain taboo issues


Again, the phraseology is political in nature. It's not addressing 'communication' at a subconscious, philosophical level, it saying there are historical issues we allegedly avoid that create a feeling of hostility. Unprompted, and to my recollection not involved in the show itself, what does Ueda immediately expand on as these 'taboo issues'?:

Quote:
For many countries in Asia, the second world war left a lot of scars, and I assume this will kind of put a cloud over this room, and I assume most of you are Americans, but as for Japan, this generation has pretty much forgotten about it because the new generation always wants to step forward. they don't really look back, and while my grandfather and grandmother both died in the atomic bombing, to me actually, it doesn't leave anything in me. I don't harbor any, hatred is a strong word, but you know, any feelings of regret and so forth, so basically I just want to keep on moving forward.


World War II and the Atomic Bomb. Again, not philosophical, historical. Ueda finishes with an upbeat sounding note, but honestly, when you talk about 'A war on imposed American values', raise the (dubious) specter of WWII victimization, grandparents killed in a bombing run, etc., I doubt Ueda's being quite sincere on his 'but it's never crossed my mind' ending. Now, from the hurried, clipped tone of the segment I wrap it back to my first point. Ueda, like many artists/creators, jotted out some throw-away, pseudo-intellectual cultural missive that probably sounded very profound in a writing room, and then markedly less so a few years later. No harm, no foul. But I stick with the assertion, from all context available, that the particular quote in mention was more historical (Japan bein' bullied by Westerners-Japanese cultural self centeredness) than grand philosophy. The issue of subconscious, cultural communication patterns does indeed fit the tone of 'Lain', but that's not the flavor of Ueda's own, unprompted answers, which focus on historical events.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
luisedgarf



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 128
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:22 pm Reply with quote
Goodpenguin wrote:
the particular quote in mention was more historical (Japan bein' bullied by Westerners-Japanese cultural self centeredness) than grand philosophy. The issue of subconscious, cultural communication patterns does indeed fit the tone of 'Lain', but that's not the flavor of Ueda's own, unprompted answers, which focus on historical events.


Maybe because the U.S. spended millions and millions of dollars just for taming the Japanese after WW2 and becoming the Big Senpai for the Japanese (unlike what's happening right now in Iraq, since Muslim culture is not so rear-kissing toward foreigners unlike the East Asian ones, due the fact that their cultures are based in Confucionism)?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
B-503_MIA



Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 106
Location: Green Bay, WI
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:14 am Reply with quote
Lain is actually the first series my wife & I bought on DVD, we were going to buy it on VHS but knew we'd be buying our first DVD player soon & held out until then. It still ranks as a favorite, even now...

A lot of praise is heaped on the Boa song "Duvet" (rightly so, it's a great song) but lost in that is the excellent soundtrack done by Nakaido "Chabo" Reichi, he excels in conveying the somber, disparate & chaotic moods that are necessary here. I really like the Twilight Zone-esque track #4 "Misty Strange Dimension" Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lain-san



Joined: 05 Nov 2009
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:13 am Reply with quote
Lain a burried treasure? 'Unburried', more like, in my case. I only found out about Lain several weeks ago (and I'm old enough that I could have been with the scene even if it had come out 30 years ago).

So, the question to me is the all the more pertinent, Does Lain still live? -- the fan-stuff, I mean, not the girl. Because I just fell in love with Lain! -- the fan-stuff, I mean, not the girl. :) Although... can't seem to get her out of my head. Do people still discuss Lain? Because -- listening to the calling of my soul -- seems I need to get connected with kindred folks.

So, please, please, tell me Lain isn't dead! Because I'm slowly going insane without others to talk to. Nah. Don't worry. I'm still me. :)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 10 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group