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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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 Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:12 pm |
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I really didn't have as much of a problem with the review overall (it was in the B range, after all) as the whole issue Casey seemed to hate it for not being as complex as a manga
Really, I took issue with it being so much fluffier than the Ouran manga, but it's far less fluffy than Doki Doki School Hours & a few other High School anime out there.
I also took issue with DNAngel adding a chick to increase the romance & the director commenting they had to pull Satoshi out for a bit because he advanced the plot too swiftly when the anime was the one that brought the alter ego out much faster than we saw in the manga. However, all these things are the vision of the director of the piece. The director does have the right to present the story as he/she sees fit just as the fans have the right to like it or not |
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mufurc
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 472
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:31 pm |
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I completely agree with marie-antoinette. Also, I think the anime pretty much deals with all the same "profound" issues that the manga offers (except of course everything that came after the anime), only in a more subtle and, IMO, more clever way. Actually, as far as I'm concerned, Ouran Host Club is one of the very few examples of an anime adaptation being much better than its source material.
But whichever one prefers, ultimately I think Ouran is a fluffy comedy that doesn't want to be particularly complex and intriguing. Taking an issue with this is sort of like taking an issue with One Piece for not being like Monster. |
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Beryl7
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:20 pm |
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| I think it was during one summer a year or two ago when I marathoned the whole series in two days--which was the first and only time I've ever done something like that. I wouldn't have been able to do that if I didn't find it hilariously entertaining. And it wasn't a series I thought I'd particularly like, either. I wasn't expecting substance, I was expecting generally mindless entertainment, which I generously received. Bottom line, everyone has their own personal opinions and expectations when it comes to any type of show or film. Doesn't mean it's what everyone is looking for. |
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maaya
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:39 pm |
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| Gewürtztraminer wrote: | But, was it funny and entertaining?
Sure it was shallow and chock full of one dimensional characters, but were they really trying for something more? |
Not sure. Ouran is definitely first a comedy and a parody. And that it does very well. But it does indeed have some more profound parts and actually each character does get his own story and deepness, so you can't really call them one-dimensional anymore. But this happens in the second part of the series.
So, for a comedy/parody-series Ouran is surprisingly non-one dimensional, but it is still first and foremost a comedy. I don't really see the use of criticizing the series for being too superficial ... I'd never criticize a series like Azumanga Daioh for not having enough character development or so oO;
I for one really enjoyed how the series made fun of (yaoi) fangirls without being insulting or how it made fun of all the glitter and sparkling in shojo series with Tamaki's exagerated gestures and Haruhi's complete insensitiveness to those things. Haruhi is one my favorite shojo heroines ^^
I actually think the humor was quite witty and it was simply a lot of fun to watch. It is among the best comedy animes I've seen so far.
| Quote: | | We lose the twins have known Haruhi since grade school. We lose that Tamaki, in his seeming air-headed fashion, put together the Host Club to actually help the members & continues to help them(or at least so far). The twins never opened up to outsiders. Kyoya, not being the eldest son, is damned to be second place in his endeavors, forced to make Tamaki look good because of their families. Tamaki isn't allowed to see his mother in the name of accepting being the heir to the family with a very harsh grandmother only accepting him grudgingly. |
Maybe I misunderstand you, but all this has been covered in the anime as well, hasn't it? I haven't read the manga this far yet, and I know it all oO Maybe in the manga it is more detailed, but it definitely did reach and touch me while watching the anime and not only a little bit. |
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CloverKuroba
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 504
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:57 pm |
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| mufurc wrote: | I completely agree with marie-antoinette. Also, I think the anime pretty much deals with all the same "profound" issues that the manga offers (except of course everything that came after the anime), only in a more subtle and, IMO, more clever way. Actually, as far as I'm concerned, Ouran Host Club is one of the very few examples of an anime adaptation being much better than its source material.
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And I completely agree with you. I think Ouran High School Host Club is much better than it's manga counterpart, which isn't bad by the way but pales in comparison. Someone called the anime empty but I totally disagree. I think the animated version gives it life; a certain vivid energy that the manga lacks. Perhaps the manga expands the characters more and is more serious, but it gives into shojo conventions a lot more than the anime-- which is unfortunate because the tongue in cheek, exaggerated parody of the shojo genre is what the series really excels at. The animation and voice acting really brings OHSHC to life, as does the witty writing.
Plus, for an episodic series, the character depth really isn't shabby. The characters (specifically the host club members) are meant to parody conventions but they do have a sufficient amount of background to keep them from being completely one-dimensional. Even so, I think if you're looking for a heavy, complex series, Ouran-- manga or anime-- probably will not satisfy you. It's simply a lot of fun. |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:03 pm |
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| maaya wrote: |
Maybe I misunderstand you, but all this has been covered in the anime as well, hasn't it? I haven't read the manga this far yet, and I know it all oO Maybe in the manga it is more detailed, but it definitely did reach and touch me while watching the anime and not only a little bit. |
We've only seen the first 13 eps released here-that's thru about the Alice in Wonderland ep. I tend to watch the dub with the subtitles up to compare the difs in the scripts, but I have yet to see it mentioned the twins knew Haruhi in the anime. The anime does play up the fluff, but a lot of shows do play for the first half. I felt they sort of dumbed Tamaki down (as impossible as it sounds on the surface) & played up Kyoya more & Hunny & Mori seem less important to the plot while the twins seem to be more involved than they were early on. Of course, I also seem to recall more of Ranka & his co-workers because I like the character. There's a bit less of the humanizing stuff, but that might be brought out in the next 13 eps.
Of course I picked the manga up on an impulse when Viz first released it under their Shojo Beat line & haven't re-read the older volumes, so my memories of the older volumes run more what stood out than the subtle stuff. I do recall in the side talks that the characters were designed to be shojo stereotypes. |
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maaya
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:14 pm |
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| CCSYueh wrote: | | We've only seen the first 13 eps released here-that's thru about the Alice in Wonderland ep. |
Ok, I see. I also don't remember cleary, when those things start to appear, but it will definitely be covered (it's also normal for the dramatic stuff to appear later on in a series). So that might change the opinion some have of the show being too superficial. Since I only read the first volumes of the manga and also some time ago, I'm not sure, but I don't believe the serious parts happened that early on in the manga either. |
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Vortextk
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 881
Location: Orlando, Fl
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:54 pm |
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| CCSYueh wrote: |
We've only seen the first 13 eps released here-that's thru about the Alice in Wonderland ep. I tend to watch the dub with the subtitles up to compare the difs in the scripts, but I have yet to see it mentioned the twins knew Haruhi in the anime. |
To anyone only halfway into the show, you can probably guess where I'm going with this, but still: You see a flashback of the twins as young kids sitting on a bench in winter, later on. You see this a couple times through out. One time, however, you see a young girl with Haruhi's same cut/color of hair play the hikaru/kaoru game and seemingly win. It's all very subtle, and nothing is ever said as definite, but I always took it to be Haruhi as a child guessing correctly which was which. If I noticed it, it couldn't be too hard to see. Not reading the manga, I don't know how they dealt with it and while the anime never said they were friends or anything, this scene did seem to hint at there being some kind of knowledge of eachother as kids. Maybe the anime wanted you to think it was Haruhi, and later in highschool, Haruhi and the twins had forgotten? |
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konkonsn
Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 163
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:20 am |
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| marie-antoinette wrote: | | I greatly disagree with that. I definitely enjoy the manga, but when it comes to the material which is covered by both manga and anime, I prefer the anime every time. And the only real noticeable change that I find between the two is a VAST improvement on the manga's greatest weakness, IMO, which is the idea that it can just ignore the passage of time. That's just sloppy writing. |
From my readings, the manga starts with the characters and then throws them into a weird setting and lets the fun happen. You can tell this by the slower pace, the way the characters are naturally given time to grow into their surroundings and react to them. The first two volumes were weak on this, but I found as the manga continued, the focus on the people and not the situation became more intense.
The anime does the opposite; it wants to cram as many funny scenes, awkward moments, and weird character traits into each episode as possible. You can tell the characters are thought about in passing. I see this as adaption decay; as authors tend to do, Hatori B. started to like her characters and got more into telling their story than focusing on the jokes. The anime, on the other hand, said, "Oh, this is funny. Let's make a funny show."
| Quote: | I guess the main problem people have with the review is not saying the Ouran is shallow, but saying it like that's a bad thing. It doesn't have to be and in Ouran's case I a) don't completely even agree that it is shallow (it certainly isn't the deepest thing out there, but the characters are pretty well developed and 3-dimensional) and b) find that it perfectly fits what the show is trying to do, which is not just parodying shojo but also being a fun, light, and greatly enjoyable series.
Sometimes it's nice to have something a bit fluffier to watch. |
Well it seems then that the problem people have is with the point of view and not if the review was right or wrong. This argument over easy reading verses good writing is as old as Shakespeare. Anything by Dan Brown, for example, sucks as a written work of fiction when you sit down and study what makes good fiction and what doesn't. But people still eat his books up because they like a "light read" or something they don't have to "think to hard about." I put those in quotes because I'm a librarian, and these are the things I hear from people.
So I don't get why people are so pissed at Casey. She's correct in her assertion, as you all point out by saying that Ouran is "meant" to be fluffy, that the show lacks substance. It seems to me that she "got" the point of the show. But being a critic, she's going to take the side that this isn't exactly admirable (welcome to book reviews everywhere). If you're the type of person who enjoys fluff, you're not going to care about her opinion and watch it anyway. If you're the type of person who likes something heavier, her review was very helpful.
Gwarsh, read some actual reviews over extremely popular but crappy fiction in The New York Times. Casey's tame compared to that stuff. |
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CCSYueh
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 1913
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:32 am |
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| konkonsn wrote: |
So I don't get why people are so pissed at Casey. She's correct in her assertion, as you all point out by saying that Ouran is "meant" to be fluffy, that the show lacks substance. It seems to me that she "got" the point of the show. |
No, the show parodies standard shojo plot tricks, but there is the depth Casey was complaining the title lacked. Yes, it is mass entertainment, but as a librarian you have to know a lot of the Required Reading List were books that stood the test of time, mass entertainment that contained something that kept people reading them over the years.
I've always found the message is where one finds it. I've been taught about speech all my life, but the message that spoke to me, put it in terms that actually sank into my head was in a Captain America where Cap was telling people the KKK had the right to say what they had to say. Even though I'd always been taught the words, most of the people saying them qualified them in politically correct terms.
All the well-written words in the world mean nothing if the reader can't grasp the concept. I always loved reading plays (like Shakespeare, The Lady's Not For Burning, etc), but I tried to talk a friend in Junior High into reading a play I'd just finished & she complained she didn't like plays because she couldn't understand them. So yeah, it's best to see it in the "high art" source, but if the "Illustrated Classics" breaks it down so the reader can understand it, at least the message has gotten across.
When one scratches beneath the surface of each of these characters, there is a story, a reason for why they are who they are & we are getting into the angst of teen life coupled with pressures Americans maybe would have a harder time comprehending because so few of us ARE expected to "carry on the family business". It seems these rich boys have it easy, but they don't because they all have duties to their families. The twins, in particular, are undergoing an identity crisis because it has been "Us/not us" for them
| konkonsn wrote: |
But being a critic, she's going to take the side that this isn't exactly admirable (welcome to book reviews everywhere). If you're the type of person who enjoys fluff, you're not going to care about her opinion and watch it anyway. If you're the type of person who likes something heavier, her review was very helpful. |
Actually, when I was a child I'd read Cleveland Amory's reviews in TV Guide. He was quite harsh & our tastes were totally opposite (because I bet he wasn't looking at it from the perspective of an 8-14 yr old girl) so he usually trashed everything I loved. It was then I realized a review is just one person's opinion. A lot of critics really have little special training & many (particularly in rock music) were failures in that field (I swear at least half the critics in Cream mentioned having a band, none of which seemed to ever have made it past bar band status while too many movie critics seemed to mention having written a screenplay). So I had to learn my tastes & how to match those tastes to movie trailers or the blurbs on the backs of books.
Witness most of us have already seen Ouran so this review didn't influence us pro or con. Granted, other people will read the review & probably base their opinion of whether to buy or watch this title.
| konkonsn wrote: |
Gwarsh, read some actual reviews over extremely popular but crappy fiction in The New York Times. Casey's tame compared to that stuff. |
My issue was she claimed her issue was it lacked the stuff one reads shojo MANGA for, but she's not reviewing the manga. In that light, it's like complaining your cup of coffee sucks because it doesn't taste like tea. A manga IS ususally a more pure experience because it is the author putting his/her vision down on paper influenced only by the editor & maybe fanmail (though usually not) while the anime is the product of a director hired by a studio to make a popular title people will watch. The FMA director liked Lust & Gluttony, so he boosted their roles. Homunculi were switched around. The manga artist often seems to have precious little imput into the animes made from their titles.
Vortextk-
Yeah, it was in there already & I wondered if that was what they were getting at, but in the manga it was early on the twins admitted to knowing Haruhi already from school & it's something they hold over Tamaki from time to time (knowing Haruhi longer, being closer). |
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Vortextk
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 881
Location: Orlando, Fl
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:46 am |
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| Shows about what I know of things fitting in. Already in then huh? Yeah, I'm almost positive that is the only hint at that particular situation at all in the rest of the anime then. |
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maaya
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:08 am |
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| Vortextk wrote: | | Yeah, I'm almost positive that is the only hint at that particular situation at all in the rest of the anime then. |
To me that was more than enough of a hint. The scene is repeated so many times before and than shown in parallel to the older Haruhi doing the game, while the twins seem to realize that it is in fact the same girl or maybe they just remembered this particular episode, because it was quite some time ago.
| CCSYueh wrote: |
Yeah, it was in there already & I wondered if that was what they were getting at, but in the manga it was early on the twins admitted to knowing Haruhi already from school & it's something they hold over Tamaki from time to time (knowing Haruhi longer, being closer). |
Well, are you sure they are refering to knowing each other as children? Since they are in the same class/year, they know Haruhi better and get to spend time with her outside of the club activities, which is something Tamaki is jealous of and they make fun of him because of it. But Haruhi wasn't at Ouran School before (she only got a scholarship shortly before meeting the hosts), so I'm not sure they admitted to having known her as a child? At least, as said, in the anime they seemed a bit shocked and surprised when Haruhi guesses right and at the same time we see those flashbacks with a girl whose face isn't revealed ... but it's pretty obvious ^^; So it seems like they had forgotten or at least didn't know that this girl was her. |
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mufurc
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 472
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:52 am |
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| maaya wrote: | | At least, as said, in the anime they seemed a bit shocked and surprised when Haruhi guesses right and at the same time we see those flashbacks with a girl whose face isn't revealed ... but it's pretty obvious ^^; So it seems like they had forgotten or at least didn't know that this girl was her. |
It couldn't have been Haruhi. For one, the scene was in the Ouran kindergarten (they're wearing uniforms and you can see the clock tower in the background), and we know that Haruhi only came to Ouran when she entered high school - and even then she could only enter via scholarship since only the upper class can afford to pay the tuition and whatnot. Two, the girl guessed wrong: she pointed at Kaoru. (And looking at the episode credits, she's referred to as "kindergarten girl" and is played by a different seiyuu.)
I think the point of that scene wasn't who that girl was, but rather what Kaoru is talking about when narrating the scene. The entire episode is about how the twins grew to think that the world only sees them as one set and doesn't care about them individually - so at a very young age they locked themselves up in their own world, afraid to open up to others and clinging to each other for safety. This is what started to change with the Host Club and even more so with Haruhi, especially when Hikaru "took the first step" (so to say) and developed a crush on her. (I really can't understand how anyone can call this show dumb and empty. It's not GITS:SAC but for a light, ultimately fluffy comedy it's pretty intelligent. And the pumpkin symbolism is very nice and so typically Enokido. That man doesn't get nearly enough recognition...) |
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maaya
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 303
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:11 am |
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uugh, I'm even more confused now and my memory seems to be completely messed up (I slightly remember that this scene also tricked me, but I seem to have completely forgotten about the final part of the "mystery" being resolved ^^; ) ... I'll better just shut up and rewatch the show, which is even too complex for me 
But so indeed the twins and Haruhi did not know each other before they met in the host club - which makes a lot more sense as well ... was this only changed in the anime or is it the same in the manga? |
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marie-antoinette
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2626
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:12 am |
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| Yeah, I'm pretty sure the girl is not supposed to be Haruhi. I never got the impression that the twins and Haruhi knew each other before they met at Ouran. |
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