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The Mike Toole Show - A Tale of Two Dubs


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Myaow



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 1068
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:18 pm Reply with quote
Aw, I kind of miss mid-00s ADV dubs. Mignogna and Martinez sound so hyper and plucky in ADV's Megazone 23! These days Mignogna always sounds so smarmy. Bummer!

Anyway, my favorite double-dog-dub is the All-Purpose Cultural Catgirl Nuku Nuku OVA, with its wonky British dub! There's just something about the dysfunctional acting and horrible timing coupled with the outrageous range of accents that makes it kind of charming to me...
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kakoishii



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 741
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:42 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
belvadeer wrote:
Lightning Leo wrote:
I'm kinda annoyed by "purists", TBH. I have to admit, that dubs oftentimes change the delivery, tone and original expressive intent of the original Japanese... but that doesn't mean they can't be appreciated in their own way. I've watched Slayers in the original and the dubbed versions and love both. Purists make it sound like the original's are untouchable, and can't nor shouldn't be improved upon... which I disagree, there are some prominent examples to the contrary (the original developer of Shenmue thought the English version was superior to the Japanese version, and even had it theatrically released in Japanese theatres with the English dub and Japanese subtitles... and there's the Cowboy Bebop dub Anime hyper). Besides, no matter how good the translation, subtitling definitely loses meaning in the process anyways... so if you're so durned nitpicky about it being as close to the original as possible, then learn Japanese, I says! Anime hyper


"Sub purist" is the new age term for weeaboos. I'm with you on that one, they are an infuriating lot. They think Japanese is a "sacred language" and should not be "marred" by horrible stinky poopy English. Such a mature lot, huh? I always tell them, "If you think English is so horrible, then stop speaking, writing and reading the language right this second and see how far you get on Japanese. Two seconds? A whole new record of fail!". Honestly, no one can translate any language word for word into another without losing some meaning that the original was conveying. That's just how it is, yet they don't seem to get that when anything gets dubbed.


These posts are filled with so many logical fallacies I don't even know where to begin.

ah, ah, ah, not so fast. Go ahead point out those fallacies, I'm genuinely intrigued. Let's see where this one goes, I'm all ears.
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gatotsu911



Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 457
Location: US of East Coast
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:38 pm Reply with quote
It's okay Mike, I loved Innocence too. The Bandai dub is way, way better than the Manga dub, though (sorry Richard Epcar). The scripting and performances are worlds above, and it's the pinnacle of English voicework in the GitS franchise.
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GVman



Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 729
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:21 pm Reply with quote
kakoishii wrote:
TitanXL wrote:
belvadeer wrote:
Lightning Leo wrote:
I'm kinda annoyed by "purists", TBH. I have to admit, that dubs oftentimes change the delivery, tone and original expressive intent of the original Japanese... but that doesn't mean they can't be appreciated in their own way. I've watched Slayers in the original and the dubbed versions and love both. Purists make it sound like the original's are untouchable, and can't nor shouldn't be improved upon... which I disagree, there are some prominent examples to the contrary (the original developer of Shenmue thought the English version was superior to the Japanese version, and even had it theatrically released in Japanese theatres with the English dub and Japanese subtitles... and there's the Cowboy Bebop dub Anime hyper). Besides, no matter how good the translation, subtitling definitely loses meaning in the process anyways... so if you're so durned nitpicky about it being as close to the original as possible, then learn Japanese, I says! Anime hyper


"Sub purist" is the new age term for weeaboos. I'm with you on that one, they are an infuriating lot. They think Japanese is a "sacred language" and should not be "marred" by horrible stinky poopy English. Such a mature lot, huh? I always tell them, "If you think English is so horrible, then stop speaking, writing and reading the language right this second and see how far you get on Japanese. Two seconds? A whole new record of fail!". Honestly, no one can translate any language word for word into another without losing some meaning that the original was conveying. That's just how it is, yet they don't seem to get that when anything gets dubbed.


These posts are filled with so many logical fallacies I don't even know where to begin.

ah, ah, ah, not so fast. Go ahead point out those fallacies, I'm genuinely intrigued. Let's see where this one goes, I'm all ears.


It's a rather large generalization. He essentially created a strawman. Many people just prefer to view films, TV shows, and what-have-you in their original language, regardless of how they feel about English. Sure there's people like that, but I assure you they're a minority of the sub purist lot.

It's like if I'm watching a Chinese TV drama of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I'm going to want it to be in Chinese.

Shenl742 wrote:
Tangeantly related : A differant actor was used for Renton in Eureka 7, he got a few episodes in, but things weren't working out so they replaced him with JYB and redid all his lines.


That actor was Yuri Lowenthal, I believe.
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Daimao Raki



Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 593
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:28 pm Reply with quote
I want to hear this dub of ZZ Gundam.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8458
Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:44 pm Reply with quote
Daimao Raki wrote:
I want to hear this dub of ZZ Gundam.


It's pretty terrible.

Then again, it's only a little worse than Blue Water's Zeta dub.
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PurpleWarrior13



Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 2024
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:59 pm Reply with quote
GVman wrote:

That actor was Yuri Lowenthal, I believe.


It was Johnny Yong Bosch who voiced Renton Thurston, but Yuri did record 13 episodes before Johnny was cast and redubbed Yuri's dialogue. Muriel Hofmann voiced Renton in the Animax dub (and Catherine Fu voiced Eureka).

Quote:
Then again, it's only a little worse than Blue Water's Zeta dub.


I haven't heard said dub, but 90% of Blue Water dubs are pretty terrible. The only decent one I've heard is Pretty Cure...


Last edited by PurpleWarrior13 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 6248
Location: Katy, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:42 am Reply with quote
Mike, this is a interesting article. I'm aware of the anime with 2 different dubs. Dragonball was one of the series I remember having different English dub. I remember the Gundam movie trilogy used LA cast when the Tv series used the Ocean Group cast in Vancouver.

Oh, Mike, I don't know if you know this. Did you know Disney animated films get redubbed several time in Japan? I guess US and Japan are no different when it comes to having 2 different set of dub.
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twinklestarex



Joined: 15 May 2010
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:59 am Reply with quote
The early Blue Water dubs weren't that great but at least its much more watchable than those crappy Animax Asia dubs sourced from HK and the Philippines.

Laughing

Digimon Adventure and Zero Two got too many English dub versions,the Philippine english dub(ABS-CBN and was later aired on Animax Asia),Singapore(made by Voiceovers Unlimited/Creative Fuzion),Hong Kong(Omni-SDI Media) and lastly the U.S version. Laughing

I remember there's also an English dubbed version of Wedding Peach aired in the Philippines and its dubbed by the same team that dubbed Yaiba in English dubs. Laughing
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Echo_City



Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 1236
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:31 am Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Echo_City wrote:


If you disagree, which knowing how things go on ANN you probably will, I ask that you consider this: Several of the "redubs" in the article concern tiny companies that have faded from the limelight, if they were ever truly there, while the Gurren Lagaan dub issue concerns both ADV and Funimation, 2 of the biggest and most renown dubbing studios in the US anime world. Mike Toole's columns tend to be shout-outs to the "old school" anime fans, so perhaps my complaint about the older shows being excluded is considered moot, but given the subject nature of the column (redubs) and the scale of the companies involved in the GL/SF redub debacle, both shows should have certainly been mentioned.


Saying "Hey everyone remember [thing Mike didn't include in the column but specifically said hey guys let's talk about the stuff I didn't mention in the comments]" is fine.

Being a demanding, confrontational ass who sounds like he's trying to rip down the author and criticize the column is basically the opposite of what anyone wants to see. Try being nice with your suggestions. Might help you.
Zac, do you see the irony in your post? It made my day, thanks. Wink

BTW, you're the one assuming that I am excoriating Mike Toole and dragging his column through the mud. I didn't explicitly say such, and as text has no inflection, it can't really be said that I intentionally implied it. I suppose arrogant posturing on the internet is "par for the course", but I'll point out the irony in rudely suggesting that I be nice with my suggestions (more on that below) anyway.

I haven't gone back and looked, but I'm pretty sure that I asked a question originally; I do not believe I left a suggestion.

Also, you say that no one wants to see a "demanding, confrontational ass" rag on something? Isn't that what any review is based on? I'm sure that massively popular internet phenomenons like Zero Punctuation and ANN's own reviews would beg to differ with this assertion of yours. Also, such a sweeping generalization cannot be true. Bonus points for actually doing yourself what you're ragging on. Wink Shoot, I'm sure someone out there enjoyed reading your thin attempt to lambast me. I'm just about the largest dub-fan to set virtual foot on the internet and I'm not reserved about it, so surely I have a "target" of sorts on me here at ANN Rolling Eyes Cool
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GVman



Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 729
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:42 pm Reply with quote
PurpleWarrior13 wrote:
GVman wrote:

That actor was Yuri Lowenthal, I believe.


It was Johnny Yong Bosch who voiced Renton Thurston, but Yuri did record 13 episodes before Johnny was cast and redubbed Yuri's dialogue.


I was responding to the part where he talked about the fellow that voiced Renton before JYB. I guess I should've been clearer.
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silentjay



Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 303
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:30 pm Reply with quote
nicomorr wrote:
I therefore treasure great subtitles that allow me to follow the emotional nuances of the works without being distracted.


Now, if you said you were fluent in Japanese, without requiring subtitles, you'd have a point, but since you need subtitles to actually follow the dialogue...

Mike should do a column about the actual business of Japanese voice acting some time, as it's pretty enlightening.
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Mike Toole
Subscriber
ANN Columnist


Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 105
Location: THE GOOD OLE U-S-A
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:50 am Reply with quote
I'd love to go into detail on voice acting in Japan, but would need to find a couple of good sources. I had a long conversation with Akira Kamiya about the subject, but that was ten years ago.
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:57 pm Reply with quote
Where do you do star ratings for columns? I got no comment but that this column was a great read.
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TurnerJ



Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 481
Location: Highland Park, NJ
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:33 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Pazu sounds more like a child and not a teenager in Streamline's dub, and as for Kiki, they left Jiji's cat sound effects intact, instead of the Disney dub, which had Phil Hartman saying "Meow!"


Correction: Pazu in the Streamline dub sounds like a woman PRETENDING to be a child, not an actual child. He was voiced by Barbara Goodson, who I thought was an even stranger casting choice. And sorry to say, it's not one of her best roles at all. To my ears, she sounded very unnatural and detached, as if she didn't know where she wanted to go with the character. There was also an obvious artificiality to her voice that I found very distracting; it was just like listening to the kid from Streamline's Vampire Hunter D—very unconvincing and, frankly, not pleasant to listen to. James van der Beek would not have been my first choice to play Pazu, but I think he did a much better job. Even if he did make Pazu sound more like a teenager, the spirit and zest he brought to the role outclassed that issue by far; Barbara wasn't very well directed when she did the first dub, and sadly, it shows, because she's had much better roles.

Streamline did not do the older dub of LAPUTA; it was done by an unknown company that Streamline picked up.

I have mentioned this before but I do not like the Streamline/JAL dub of Castle in the Sky. At all. To me it sounds like an absolute trainwreck, with some of the most lifeless performances I've ever heard in any dub, the dialogue sounds sloppy and poorly written, and the overall production strikes me as a quick and dirty dub with no effort at all. Seriously, one listen to it and it only convinced me that the Disney version of Laputa was better; even if Pazu DID sound like a teen and the translation more liberal than it had to be, at least it sounded believeable and well-written, not like a crappy translated fansub. Plus, the performances in the Disney dub are much livelier than their JAL counterparts; Muska, Dola, the pirates, the incidental characters are especially excellent—their JAL VAs sound absolutely dull and uninspired by comparison. Sheeta also sounded very off and harsh on my ears in the JAL dub and only succeeded in making Anna Paquin's take, inconsistent though it may have been at times, a masterpiece by comparison.

For Kiki's older dub, I'm torn. I love the Disney dub a lot, but Streamline's version isn't too bad. It's made by the same team who also did the first dub of Totoro, which I also liked. But for these two films, I wouldn't say the first dubs are better or worse than their Disney counterparts, only different. Unlike Laputa's older dub, I had the feel that both were done with more care, even if I favor Hartman's Jiji more and liked the use of actual sisters in Totoro. And for the record, Disney DID issue a 2010 DVD release of Kiki where Jiji's cat sound effects are restored instead of Hartman's "meow"s.

Other two Anime I've seen with pre-existing dubs include Akira. While I understand the Streamline version has its fans I can't stand this dub; like Laputa's older dub, it sounded like a trainwreck from the start, with nobody involved knowing what they're doing and even more inept writing. The Animaze dub is miles better, plus the story is much more easier to follow.

Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water is another Streamline released dubbed by ADV title that doesn't often get mentioned. The accents are iffy in both dubs, that cannot be denied. But IMO, the ADV edges the Streamline dub out for having actual kids play the roles of the children and for the Grandis gang, all who ace their Streamline counterparts.

I haven't seen much of The Castle of Cagliostro's older dub, but I was fine with the AniMaze dub. Yes it has too much profanity, yet the enthusiasm and livelieness from the cast made up for that weakness. The Streamline dub sounded solid as well, but I found Zenigata's VA laughable—he sounded more like Ernie on crack, Goemon sounded very dull and detached. On the plus side, Jeff Winkless (who was absolutely HIDEOUS as Muska in the aforementioned Laputa '80s dub—some of the most boring voice acting I've ever heard. This is more effective than Hamill? Give me a break.) is quite good as Jodo, and Mike McConnohie ties with Kirk Thornton as the Count.

I don't necessarily prefer older dubs over their newer counterparts. In fact, I never really do. But for the titles which have absolutely hideous '80s dubs I have to put my foot down and say that the newer versions, although not perfect, are far more listenable to my ears.


Last edited by TurnerJ on Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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