Forum - View topicChicks On Anime - Female Crossdressers in Media
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konkonsn
 Posts: 172 Location: Illinois |
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Women still recieve fewer benefits and less pay than men who work the exact same job as them. Women are still under-represented in jobs that are considered the "creme of the crop." Specifically technical fields, CEO and higher corporate positions, and math/science fields. Oh, and there's this whole fun fact: Most elementary school teachers are women; most college professors, principles, and college presidents are male. Most food service workers are women; most chefs are men. Most social workers are women; most research psychologists are men. One in four women on college campuses are raped. One in five overall. Domestic violence is the leading cause of death among pregnant women. Women sports are significantly under-represented in the media. Most forms of birth control are made for women. Most drugs to make you sexually active are for men. In reports on robberies, murders, and so on, sentences are structured to say, "Robert Jenkins stole the vase..." or "Robert Jenkins murdered the two victims." In reports on rape, the passive tense is almost always used. "Jenna Marton was raped..." This puts the focus on the rape victim instead of the person who raped him/her. I could go on, but I think I made my point. |
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ArthurFrDent
 Posts: 466 |
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I could go on, but I think I made my point. - konkonsn
yup, but I'd encourage you to really read between the lines on these facts an find the whole picture, not just the from the female perspective. Each one of these points is part of a whole. For example. The birth control point. Chemical birth control works for women because their reproductive system is more complex, so there are more places to disrupt it, without causing permanant damage. SO FAR, and belive me this will be worth billions when they figure it out, they can't figure out how to do this on the male system, consistantly, yet without destroying it. Meanwhile the most useful form of birth control, barrier, works best on the man. Cheap and effective, no side effects, and protects against disease. On the flip side, BECAUSE the male repro system is pretty simple, fixing it when broken, is pretty straight forward. Can be done often with a pill, with few side effects. Since women are so much more complex, there is rarely a single thing to fix for them, and so far, no single pill. You can imagine THAT will be worth billions as well, if they can figure it out. There isn't a conspiracy there. The biology is what drives it. Some of this is just out and out criminal activity. I don't see where there is a gender bias there. Men are killed in every category at far higher rates than women. It's a criminal activity, how do you fix that except by punishing? Criminals by definition don't follow the law, what do you think gender has to do with that, exactly. Maybe once you point it out to me, I'll have an a-ha moment, so please do. The pay thing, dunno what to do about that to make it faster. There are laws galore, and in my company tons of quotas, dunno if that solves anything. The president of my company is a woman, and it's a large tech company. My immediate boss is also a woman, and my team is 65% women, I'm a programmer. If you have other ways of making that work, I'm all ears. Women in sports are represented as well as the media can make money off of that. If no one wants to watch it, you won't hear about it. On the news you hear, but in terms of shows? The WNBA doesn't bring in enough revenue to be televised all the time... this is also not a conspiracy. It's just economics... There is a whole to be had here, but you certainly have to go looking for it if it matters to you. |
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LordPrometheus
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The "women's traits" I was speaking of were not "being good at sports". I was speaking of things like female emotions, motherly instinct, acting feminine, etc. Being good at one sport or another has nothing to do with female traits. So yes, I still stand by my statement that I don't know anybody who thinks that female traits are inferior to male traits. Stating the obvious fact that most women would get crushed playing against a men's sports team (of ANY variety) does not negate my point.
What the crap does that have to do with anything? Instead of seeing those stats and crying "Oh, those poor oppressed women!", maybe you should step back and ask youself why that is. Maybe those careers don't interest a lot of women, specifically technology. It is VERY hard to find girls interested in things like the IT industry, for example. Maybe they're falling out of the woodwork where you live, I dunno. Perhaps women are occupied with other things than filling up some imaginary quota of "equality" in certain fields. I'd wager that men are pretty under-represented at your local Victoria's Secret, but you don't hear me complaining about it. There's a hundred reasons why women wouldn't be as big in those fields, and I'm willing to bet that oppression is pretty dang low on that list. Besides, in the end, who freaking cares if there are more male chefs than female?? I mean really... does ithave THAT dramatic of an impact on your life if Emril gets more face time than Rachel Ray, for whatever reason? Seriously. |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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I wouldn't really call this a product of an unequal society, though... Many women *choose* not to pursue a career in the sciences, because it's very long hours, and it's harder to get to the point where you can comfortably raise a family. The path to being a professor is difficult. After college , you spend 6-7 years in grad school (or more, depending on the field), then if you're in the sciences, you spend another 2 years as a post-doc, then you eventually get to be a professor after slowly climbing up the food chain, but it's many, many years until you're a tenured professor. Until you're a professor, you're pretty poor, too. And the hours are very long. Also, keep in mind that many professors spend more time doing research, and not as much time doing any teaching. So women who do want to *teach* end up teaching, as schoolteachers. Career choices are choices that women make. Some women choose to be researchers or professors. Some women would rather do something else with their lives-- and something that would let them spend more time with their families. Honestly, if a woman wanted to be a scientist, the doors are open. If women want to be researchers, they should consider majoring in something that will allow them to start that career path. Nobody is forcing women to major in Art History or Communications or whatever. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Because by most definitions of "sport", a quantitative means of victory is required. Artistic performances that require judges to assign points don't qualify under this definition. Sports like baseball, football, hockey, and such have very specific and obvious ways of determining the victor, while gymnastics, diving, figure skating, and such require someone intimately familiar with the event and the arbitrary scoring mechanics to determine who is the winner. That also is a probable reason as to the greater popularity of male sports compared to ones for females; there is less ambiguity in who is better. It is far easier to see who wins a competition of strength than a competition of flexibility, and generally speaking, males have more of the former while females have more of the latter. |
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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I am really enjoying this thread, and I generally like your POV on this issue. But I'm very disappointed with your comment here. This is a prime example of "women's work" being degraded. It seems like careers that attract men and make the most money are deemed more respectable then careers that primarily attract women, such as teaching children and social work. Social workers and teachers are my superheroes! They do more good for society in general and individuals in particular in a single day than most CEOs or sports heroes (who I don't really respect at all. Flame me for this, but what's the big deal about playing a children's game really well, and why should one be payed millions for the privilege?) do in a lifetime. Not to mention that "feminine jobs" are the least likely to be outsourced, and are the most in demand because society will never lack a need for social workers, teachers, nurses, or therapists (psychological, occupational, speech or physical, all of which are really popular therapy majors for young women right now). What the world needs less of, IMHO, are CEOs, investment bankers, and over-payed, over-idolized celebrities, including sports players. Especially ones that screw up and beg the Government for bail-out money. 
What really gets my goat is reverse discrimination, in that a man pursuing a career deemed feminine will automatically make people think he may be homosexual, even if he's not. I see this a lot when I hear my friends in nursing school discuss their (very few) male classmates, and it's just sad (ever seen "Meet The Parents"?) In addition, after working in a day care center, I gained TONS of respect for men and women who make sacrifices in their own lives and livelihoods to ensure that their young children are well cared for. It's time to set our priorities straight and stop bashing people who prioritize caring for others over making money, fame and prestige. 
BTW, in reading another thread, the "burriko behavior" prevalent in Japan was brought up and a light dawned on me. It's obvious that anime would have crossdressing female characters, if only to portray characters who can legitimately avoid any temptation to "do burriko" in front of men in order to be treated as respectful and modest. Burriko: http://books.google.dk/books?id=j3J8P7g_O0wC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=you+are+doing+burikko&source=web&ots=FZ3VSmXSNd&sig=paFommc4fSYFRJ85Y9SMtGF9a2M&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA165,M1 |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I'm not an athiest. Why is it assumed everyone who is wary of organized religion is an athiest? I was brought up Christian & am agnostic. I pretty much believe in the God I was reared with, except I've redefined it for myself that God cares a hell of a lot more how we treat our fellow man than whether we pray thru Jesus or Mohammad or The Goddess. Most takes I've seen on religion seem to be pushing someone's agenda be it LeVey's Satanic Bible (Worship oneself as god) or the dozens of takes on Christianity. Some of the Wiccan stuff I've looked over also pushes an agenda. Basically, if it's not hurting anyone else (& that's actual hurt like the impact of drug use on family members, etc, not "I'm offended the gay neighbors can get married"), it should be between the person & their god. If they burn in hell forever, it's the choice they made. Maybe they're right & they won't so it won't hurt you anyway, so who cares? I was sort of surprised at the "trap" thing for guys. I wonder if it's not there for guys to sort of explore bisexuality secretly so no one else needs to know. I've read there are all sorts of issues about homosexuality in Japan-shameful in open practice, but don't ask/don't tell works, so traps could appeal to that audience. I know a friend of my teen who is bi who has not come out to his Catholic Republican mother & they had a pro-prop 8 yard sign, etc. In fact, I don't believe he's ever been with a guy over the whole sin thing (self-pleasure material only). Which is stupid in it's way. If that's the way one's child swings, one should just be happy the child becomes a well-adapted adult who can have a mutually consented relationship or 7 s/he's comfortable with existing in. We in the west do put our spin on it, but this stuff is also coming out of Japan which does have a different societal structure from ours. I've seen it commented they believe homosexuals are more accepted in our society. We've seen comments that women are less equal in Japan & other Asian societies, thus the cross-dressing female IS moving up in the world of power. We've all probably seen stories of gals cross-dressing in Western society to gain a position banned to them. There are stories from time to time of people who die & then are exposed as women, having lived their lives as men. Women have more freedom in the West than we did, so this is less common than it was, but in Japan the idea still works because females are still seen with fewer options.
It's not a force thing. There have been studies that teachers (in the past & maybe now still) give preferential treatment to male students. I recall one where the High School (or was it college?) teacher was speaking with the students, guys inserting dialogue/questions whenever, but when a girl spoke up in the same manner, the teacher reminded her to raise her hand. Females do get steered by teachers or families to more traditional female fields.
What rock are you hiding under? On this very thread the pregnancy issue came up--If I have 3 employees & hire a chick as one & she gets pregnant, what do I do? Forget the fact guys might break a leg in an accident & be out a similar 3 months or more. ANY potential employee can become suddenly ill or get cancer, etc, but the underlying theory against female advancement is women DO have a majority of the responsibility for child rearing so many employers do see men as a better risk for hires. A man is perceived as able to work late if necessary, forgetting the number of single moms we've seen in blue collar work, sometimes 2 or 3 jobs to support their children. I have actually heard of women passed over for guys in promotions. There IS the "good old boys" network. I have heard boss-types express opinions that guys play team sport in school, do the locker room routine, so they know how to be a team player over gals who somehow they believe don't get that (because we don't play team sports. Yeah, right) So basically, there is a very real Glass Ceiling.
Really? The guys I know who want to be sure they do not have children have a vasectomy. It's that simple. Otherwise far too often I see birth control left up to the female. It's something many guys don't think about because they don't have to unless the gal gets pregnant & then they can still walk if they choose. The gal's choice is have the baby or an abortion unless she's made sure she's protected On the bathroom issue, most of the men's rooms I've seen have stalls (unless they're single use or those weird things at the beach where they have stalls with no doors). I've heard of guys who will not use the urinals--they insist on a stall. So if there are no urinals, just stalls & the privacy of the person using the stall can be guaranteed (no cracks large enough to see thru), I don't see an issue to unisex bathrooms. Lacking urinals & only having stalls, the same goes for trans-gendered people. However one is dressed would be the bathroom one would use. If you're in your stall, who really sees? Among my clients, we ask if they've had the operation so they get the same gendered tester as they are physically--male officers for male-to-female pre-op, female testers post-op. That one's always confused me. Even if it's in school where everyone's worried about their precious daughters/sons, I would think a student living as a girl would use the Ladies Room & a student living as a male would use the Men's Room. The whole issue is so complex with so many stigmas attached to it, I really can't see someone using it as an excuse to get to the opposite sex & if they did, I'd say they need to seek counseling. |
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LordPrometheus
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All of this has very little to do with what I actually said. "Boss types" like you describe are just idiots(and probably breaking the law, depending on where you live), but they are not part of a grand conspiracy like you imagine. Until I see the vast throngs of women beating down the doors to be IT professionals or college professors and being turned away, I do not have any evidence to validate the existence of an anti-women conspiracy. Finally, as I said in my last post, why on earth does it even matter how many women are chefs or fix computers?? How does that affect your life even one iota? Unless you've personally been refused an IT job or a position of a chef based solely on your gender, then I can say with certainty that your life remains unaffected, just as I am unaffected by the lack of males working at Victoria's Secret. |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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Yes, but on the upside, it's easier to get accepted into science programs as a female, so it kind of balances out. When I applied to the engineering program at Brown, I'm pretty sure being a female helped. Hell, there was a girl at my school who applied as an engineer, even though she wanted to be an English major, because she knew she had a better shot at getting into the school if she said she was interested in science.
This is something that's prevalent, but once again, it goes back to those sacrifices that some women make in order to go into the sciences. It's not fair, no, but those are the choices that some women make. And many women make it work, because they have perseverance. It is somewhat of an uphill battle. Take two people who have the same job-- one male, one female. After work, their coworkers and boss all go out for drinks. The male is free to go-- the female decides that she should go home to take care of her family. Come promotion time, the guy gets the promotion because the boss is on friendlier terms with him. It's not entirely fair, no, but it's all about choices. Women are having children later and later in life because they want to get their careers started first. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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There is also the situation that a woman with the same qualifications as a man will be paid 5 to 7 thousand of [insert currency here] less just because they are a woman. Even with new laws against it here in the UK, it's still a problem within employment.
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Fairy Hime
Posts: 13 |
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One of the first things I want to point out is men don't have maternity leave but they do get paternity leave. Under federal law men are allowed 12 weeks off, the same amout women are given. It's under the Family Medical Leave Act and there is no difference in benefits between men and women. That's called equality and us feminists want men to have those rights just as much as we want to have them too.
Another thing to keep in mind is sex is biological; gender is sociological. Girls and boys are treated differently from the moment they are born and although scientists have been researching for over a century what comes from biology and what comes from sociology (ie: nature vs nurture) there really hasn't been any absolute proof one way or another. One of the reasons boys tend to be better at math and science is because girls are given dolls, pretend food, and dress-up clothes whereas boys are given cars and lincoln logs and toy guns. Based upon the toys which one do you think is more likely to try science as a career? I will admit that women do have certain advantages over men but most of the advantages come from the perception that we're inferior to men. So yes, guys always ask me if I need help carrying something or they'll make sure someone walks me home at night and I can't be drafted without congress changing the law but all those supposed perks are given to me because there's a belief that women are incapable. |
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UtenaAnthy
 Posts: 694 |
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Can I choose not being judged for having sex (I long for the day when terms such as trollop are no longer in wide usage) and also getting to wear pants/trousers and go to meetings and speak at them?
Also what people say about looking obviously female... long hair is not obviously female, if you were going to talk about obviously female, surely you'd at least pick a body part that only female homosapiens have, like the vagina, or uterus, long hair is marked as feminine in some cultures, yes, but it's not actually female. |
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ArthurFrDent
Posts: 466 |
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"One of the first things I want to point out is men don't have maternity leave but they do get paternity leave. Under federal law men are allowed 12 weeks off, the same amout women are given. It's under the Family Medical Leave Act and there is no difference in benefits between men and women. That's called equality and us feminists want men to have those rights just as much as we want to have them too. " Fairy Hime
This is fact but not practice... Those 12 weeks are unpaid by that law. Larger companies have leave policies where the new mom is paid for her maternity leave, men are genrally not, or in my case were allowed a week off with pay. I have numerous friends of both genders that work for large companies, and this is the case generally. Most Fortune 500's give 3 moths of maternity leave at full salary for the mother only. When you have a new kid, how can you take any time off without pay? "Really? The guys I know who want to be sure they do not have children have a vasectomy. It's that simple. Otherwise far too often I see birth control left up to the female. It's something many guys don't think about because they don't have to unless the gal gets pregnant & then they can still walk if they choose. The gal's choice is have the baby or an abortion unless she's made sure she's protected." CCSYueh Hmm, and women can't have a tubal ligation? Most people I know wouldn't do either, because they are figuring eventually they are going to find someone they want to have a family with. Reversals of either porcedure don't work very well to reintroduce fertility, so in essence they are permanent. What you say about guys protecting themselves is true, and astonishing. Beyond the fact that it's your kid too, why wouldn't you be involved... in most states paternity suits can be brought by legal aid, and they guy will be on the hook to pay. So if he is conscientious to start with, he will have to pay for the kid. 'Course if he was conscientious he might well have protected both of them, and would step up to the plate if he fathered the kid. What I have found a lot in the horror stories on both sides of this question is that the problem happens when one or both of the parties aren't conscientious. People quote those ones most often and I could, but does it matter? Just like people don't lock their doors and are astounded when they are robbed... |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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A woman being sterilized would be a form of protection which I mentioned.
That woman getting paid for being out on maternity leave is called disability. Most of the gals I know who choose to stay out longer than the time specified by their doctor also wind up using vacation pay or on leave without pay. I was actually not too happy I had to exhaust my vacation pay under the terms my company used
That's usually only in fields that are trying to attract females to the job. Here in the States bosses also used to get (may still) tax credits for hiring disabled workers & some other groups.
But it is stupid women automatically conjure up pregnancy & child issues when the specific case mentioned (motorcycle mechanic) I would think would suggest a man who fixes motorcycles might also ride them & thus maybe wind up in an accident (not disparaging motorcycle drivers. It's a fact most car drivers do not see them half the time & BOOM). We had an officer injure his knee playing football with the department's team, requiring knee surgery. Guys have that image of taking risks more than gals-mountain climbing, sky diving, etc. so they carry the same risks of employment. Yet everyone seems to worry about pregnacy. |
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ArthurFrDent
Posts: 466 |
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"Yet everyone seems to worry about pregnacy."
isn't it the one thing that actually IS gender specific? Heavens forbid, but either one of us could have a car accident today, break a leg on the ice, or get cancer, and be out. Only one of us could get preggers, and it ain't me. It will always be like that. There is a solid difference between us, and it should be addressed positively. And, at least at my corporation [130,000 emp] maternity leave is NOT disability. This I know having started as a programmer in benefits delivery. |
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