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20 Years in Prison for Buying a Manga


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Unholy_Nny



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 622

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:19 pm Reply with quote
No offense, I'm quite liking this editorial, but it sounds a little bit like one of those "For only a few pennies a day, YOU can feed a starving child" commercials.


EDIT: Does all of this mean that ANN is taking an official stance on the subject?


Last edited by Unholy_Nny on Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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aluria



Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Posts: 367
Location: New Westminster, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:21 pm Reply with quote
Ah the States. They will glady promote something as obsene as Playboy but want to jail a man for wanting to read a manga.

I'm curious as to what exactly is obsene about the manga. Was the manga stopped at customs and then he got arrested or did it make it all the way to his house?
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Panda Man



Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 257
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:29 pm Reply with quote
I hope he gets off free. I mean, it was drawn, so doesn't that technically count as freedom of press. We can have Dakota Fanning raped in a movie (you don't really see it all) but if we have something drawn, and something that no one else will see, it's automatically bad. I get the feeling someone is just has a grudge against another country.
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Teriyaki Terrier



Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 5690

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:30 pm Reply with quote
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime"

Years ago I heard that on a public annocument. That quote apply's exactly to this sitution.
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angel_lover



Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 645
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:30 pm Reply with quote
Apparently I deserve to be strung up for reading the sort of manga I like, so I think 20 years in prison seems fairly mild in comparison. Seeing that ANN itself now sees fit to stream anime with naked minors in it, all I can bring myself to say is enjoy your hypocrisy.
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loka



Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 364
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:32 pm Reply with quote
the way I see it, it's up to the jury's opinion of obscenity. and most of us can probably agree that people really don't change those sort of 'core values' based upon a lawyer or expert lecturing them. I just don't know what all of this funding will help.
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W-General



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 279
Location: Ithaca, NY, USA / Taichung, Taiwan

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:36 pm Reply with quote
Thank you for this article and editorial. I am glad that ANN is making this heard.

I am absolutely outraged at the constant attack some of those hypocritical moralists have made on drawn materials like adult manga, etc. No children were harmed in the production or enjoyment of these materials. It's absolutely ridiculous to even suggest the notion that life imitates art. That the readers of these manga would one day go out and rape actual children.

If this is the case then the streets would be in full bloodshed by now as people take up guns and gun down others like they do in movies. Perhaps the government should take a similar stance on all violent Hollywood movies, or video games too (not that I want to see it happen - I'm an ardent video games fan) - oh wait, I forgot - those have powerful industry backers, while animation and manga are powerless. I see what this is: hypocrisy at its best - pick on the weak ones.

aluria wrote:
Ah the States. They will glady promote something as obsene as Playboy but want to jail a man for wanting to read a manga.

I'm curious as to what exactly is obsene about the manga. Was the manga stopped at customs and then he got arrested or did it make it all the way to his house?


You may find information about the guy's case in the first link in the article. But I believe the man got in trouble because a loli manga he ordered online was inspected by his local post office in Iowa and the worker informed authorities about it. (oh Iowa...one place to add to my list of "places to not live in"). Speaking of which, there's a similar case in Australia... (I forgot the exact name of the case) this global censorship indeed is frightening
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DFBTG



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 385
Location: Hell

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:42 pm Reply with quote
Teriyaki Terrier wrote:
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime"

Years ago I heard that on a public annocument. That quote apply's exactly to this sitution.


If I'm understanding you correctly, I'm not entirely sure what 'crime' he's committed. As the editorial points out, we don't know what manga he even had, and given the extreme subjectivity of the word 'obscene' this whole thing could be one giant joke. Of course, given that it's fictional material that in all likely hood wasn't based of any factual account, I fail to see what it matters even if it is 'obscene'. It's not exactly like he's putting out a stand in his front yard and giving copies away to 12-year-old kids. From what I can tell it was a PRIVATE collection. Funny how the government cares about what people are reading in private but doesn't give a damn about what some of the things people do in private (rampant teenage sex anyone?) that actually more of an effect than just someone getting off. Not to mention the whole free speech thing. As long as you're not threatening/abusing someone I'd very much like to know when America lost the right to say/read/write what we wanted. I may be going overboard here (in fact, I am), but this just makes me think of Fahrenheit 451. Granted (if I remember correctly) the reasons were a bit different, but some things are a slippery slope.


Last edited by DFBTG on Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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blind_assassin



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 755

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:42 pm Reply with quote
As bad as this sounds, the law also sounds incredibly unconstitutional. I won't be surprised if the law dies within the foreseeable future but I'd also not be too surprised if this turned out poorly before then. Best of luck.
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TheMysterious



Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:49 pm Reply with quote
20 years? I'm glad I don't live over there... Anyways, they never mention in the article what kind of obscene content the manga in question had and therefor I think it is very angled. :/ However it doesn't matter if it was a rape, torture, loli, hentai manga. 20 years is like what you get for murder in my country! I don't think it matters how disturbing that manga ever could have been, that mans twisted perversion doesn't hurt anyone...
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Big Hed



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1607
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:49 pm Reply with quote
Teriyaki Terrier wrote:
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime"

Years ago I heard that on a public annocument. That quote apply's exactly to this sitution.


So, I take it you don't care if suddenly, most of the manga/anime you watch becomes a potential federal offense to possess? This case isn't just about OMG LOLIS EW, it could make being even a casual manga collector a risky prospect.

loka wrote:
the way I see it, it's up to the jury's opinion of obscenity. and most of us can probably agree that people really don't change those sort of 'core values' based upon a lawyer or expert lecturing them. I just don't know what all of this funding will help.


While it's undoubtedly true that the jurors' decision will be somewhat affected by preconceived notions of obscenity, it's rash to say that the proceedings of the case will have no effect at all. Look at it this way; at worst, any donation you give isn't going to hurt the guy's chances.

20 years -- hell, any prison term at all -- is insane in my opinion. I'll see if I can scrape a few dollars together to donate.
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Colonel Wolfe



Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 370

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:53 pm Reply with quote
I understand why these articles were written and why fans of foreign anime and manga should be concerned but I had a hard time trying to figure out just exactly where Carl Horn was coming from.

Not only was he vague but I saw nothing in there as to what the case was all about or what material was purchased or which titles he was arrested for.

Sure, we all respect the hard work that Mr Horn has done at Viz and Dark Horse but it just sounded like a long boring commentary on the Japanese manga genre and nothing about the particulars of the case.
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 8533
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:55 pm Reply with quote
Unholy_Nny wrote:
No offense, I'm quite liking this editorial, but it sounds a little bit like one of those "For only a few pennies a day, YOU can feed a starving child" commercials.


That's kind of the point. Go donate a few pennies a day and maybe you'll save some of your constitutional rights.

Quote:
EDIT: Does all of this mean that ANN is taking an official stance on the subject?


No. My position, I'll state this publicly, is in support of the CBLDF. ANN remains, as always, without opinion (Often times the ANN staff ourselves do not agree on issues such as this one).

Blind_Assassin wrote:
I won't be surprised if the law dies within the foreseeable future
Someone needs to challenge the law for it to die. Th CBLDF is doing that right now, and you can do more than wish them luck.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3312
Location: Back stateside

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:57 pm Reply with quote
So according to both these editorials, I'm a horrible person who doesn't support freedom of speech for wanting to know what it was exactly that he purchased? I keep hearing conflicting reports about the content, the age of the characters, etc. which is maybe part of the problem: Americans courts aren't familiar with the conventions of Japanese anime and manga.

Still, ignoring the fact that I'm dirt poor and don't have any money to give this guy, I'd feel better about doing it if I knew it didn't feature children under the age of 10 being raped.

There are two equally bad ideas at work here coming from both sides of the issue. The first is that if you read something with violence, rape, etc. you're more likely to go out and actually do it. If that were the case, given the kind of violent material I read and watch, I'd have a large body count to my name. Sometimes this stuff is the escape valve you need for inappropriate feelings.

The other flaw is that somehow depiction of children being raped is perfectly all right so long as it's just illustrations. While I don't think that Mr. Horn is likely to go out and be a child predator simply as a result of reading it, there's an issue here of what he's using it for. Is it for the storyline? Or is he whacking off? To me, that's what defined porn, not "obscenity."

The problem, of course, is that the government can't determine what he's using it for, whether it effects his views on children, or any of the complex inner workings of the human mind. Hence fairly legislating the issue is nigh impossible. Obscenity and pornography laws are notoriously vague, functioning on the "I know it when I see it" principle (and perhaps most of us do know when we see it, but it makes for bad law). At the same time, more specific rules about depiction of genitalia and pubic hair (as they have in Japan) can be just as ridiculous as artists find loopholes to get around them.

I think child pornography (here taken as prepubescent), even when only drawn, is disgusting, and that people who read it have serious issues. But 1) I'm not sure what the material really is here , and 2) 20 years and a permanent stamp as a sex offender is ridiculous. Where he involved in actual exploitation of living children, that would be one thing, but this is an issue of his moral character, not his harm to others. He may be a creep, but that's not criminal.

It does seem, though, that he broke a law about transporting pornography across state lines - am I right about that? Anyway, if he did, knowing full well that it was illegal, he should be ready to face the consequences, but to me those consequences should be a fine, not jail time.
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DFBTG



Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 385
Location: Hell

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:57 pm Reply with quote
Colonel Wolfe wrote:
I understand why these articles were written and why fans of foreign anime and manga should be concerned but I had a hard time trying to figure out just exactly where Carl Horn was coming from.

Not only was he vague but I saw nothing in there as to what the case was all about or what material was purchased or which titles he was arrested for.

Sure, we all respect the hard work that Mr Horn has done at Viz and Dark Horse but it just sounded like a long boring commentary on the Japanese manga genre and nothing about the particulars of the case.


As far as I can tell, nothing but the fact that material is supposedly 'obscene' has been released. You can't really expect him to hand out what he doesn't have. That being said, it was more of a commentary about the overall situation he-and if this gets through, the American manga/anime fans-are found in.
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