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Mr. sickVisionz wrote:

kakoishii wrote:

Mr. sickVisionz wrote:

If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it]

Now this is the slippery slope one of the posters mentioned a few pages back that Brian quickly dismissed. I commend you wanting to give back to the original artist as much as you can, but buying used is not equivalent to pirating, just the same as borrowing a dvd from a friend or from the library for that matter. Does the artist get money specifically from that person who borrowed the item or bought it used from some nameless smoe? No, but that same item was purchased legally by the initial person and that profit was made. That situation is very different than someone stealing something and putting it on the internet for thousands of people to leach off of for free.

I never said buying used was pirating. In fact, I said there was nothing illegal or unethical about buying used, which can't be said about piracy imo.

Even if I did, which I didn't, how is what you quoted from me a slippery slope argument? I said nothing about future impact on the industry or implied anything about future events or where buying used could lead to. All I said was that I like to support the people who produce/release the content and buying used doesn't let me do that, so I don't do it. Where is the slippery slope?

It's about keeping titles in legal circulation, and showing companies that even after titles go OOP, there is still a demand for them. A *huge* demand, once the online used market starts charging $40+ for a single volume of manga, or $80+ for a volume of anime. It's about supporting artists by proxy, by acquiring hard copies of their art.

But most of all, it's about encouraging legal acquisition as opposed to illegal acquisition despite budget constraints.

By comparing buying used to piracy, you opened up that slippery slope can-of-worms. You aren't even the first person on this board to do so! You denied it, but then what is this statement:

Quote:

If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it

supposed to mean?

I remember someone once commenting on the ANN boards that buying anime and manga is not a form of charity. Spending more money on a purchase isn't a saintly act that you can lord over others' heads. If you want to have something as soon as it comes out, in mint condition, to keep forever(?) for your collection, you can buy it at its initial price. If you want to save money and are willing to wait, you can wait to buy it on sale or (*shock!*) used. The second option is not shameful, and the first option doesn't make you better than anyone else.

Edited because kakoishii pointed out the slippery slope sentence first.

And I'm sorry if I'm coming off harsh, but that "shame on you!" in Answerman's column this week really was unwarranted. I know that there are no "winners" in internet debates! Razz

Mr. sickVisionz wrote:

There's nothing illegal or unethical about buying used but I love anime and I want to see the people making it and releasing it profit from their work. If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it, which I haven't done for years, because

I can still access it, just like buying it used
Nobody who made it sees a penny of my money, just like buying it used
I spend $0, which is a huge benefit over buying it used.

If you purchase a used DVD or manga from someone, what is the most likely purpose that they will put those funds toward? Typically buying more anime or manga.

By contrast, if you pirate, you can be absolutely assurred no funds flow back to the anime or manga industry.

Given the choice of not buying a new title because either you can't afford it or justify the price, vs. buying a used title which you can afford or justify, which one will be most likely to benefit the industry?

TheAncientOne wrote:

Mr. sickVisionz wrote:

There's nothing illegal or unethical about buying used but I love anime and I want to see the people making it and releasing it profit from their work. If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it, which I haven't done for years, because

I can still access it, just like buying it used
Nobody who made it sees a penny of my money, just like buying it used
I spend $0, which is a huge benefit over buying it used.

If you purchase a used DVD or manga from someone, what is the most likely purpose that they will put those funds toward? Typically buying more anime or manga.

By contrast, if you pirate, you can be absolutely assurred no funds flow back to the anime or manga industry.

Given the choice of not buying a new title because either you can't afford it or justify the price, vs. buying a used title which you can afford or justify, which one will be most likely to benefit the industry?

hmm that is true enough say for example I want to resell some of my dvd sets that are long out print for money to fan that is willing x amount for it. Since you know I love higurash, Familiar of zero here is how much I could re-sell them on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B001F2U6XI/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1330308727&sr=8-1&condition=used

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002BWD75U/ref=sr_1_5_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1330308809&sr=8-5&condition=used

I could make a nearly 1000 dollars on used dvd's and the anime industry wouldn't see a dime...but I wouldn't do something like that lol.

Kakugo wrote:

What more can the US end of industry realistically do for the fandom, anyway?

The question should be what the Japanese end of the industry should realistically do for the fandom.

The US guys are tied. Even if they suggest that X strategy will work in the long run, it's up to the Japanese IP holders to either accept or reject such ideas. I'll give some credit that the companies have possibly told the Japanese many things which have never come to fruition and could've saved the industry in many ways.

How else could you explain why 4Kids somehow managed to gain control of One Piece?

Quote:

How else could you explain why 4Kids somehow managed to gain control of One Piece?

Because they had money.

I don't know why some people have so much trouble understanding that money rules the world.

You know, I don't think I've ever bought manga second-hand. Not because I like it crisp and pristine (sometimes used copies are in really good shape) but because every used book store in every town I've ever lived in has crap-all selection for its manga. Nothing I buy is ever available in used bookstores, so I buy it online from various venders (Amazon, Rightstuf, straight from Dark Horse) or at Borders, before it went belly-up. Heck, when I lived in Iowa I gave huge amounts of money to my local comic book store by buying manga at full price, no discounts. To quote Erasmus, "When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothing."

Now, here in Japan, I get just about everything from Book Off, frequently used, but that's a whole different ball game...

As for anime, yes, I bought all of Cowboy Bebop used, because I couldn't find it affordable anywhere else. But otherwise, if you look, there are plenty of good deals without resorting to used copies, where you never know if they've been scratched up until you take them home.

But I will also say: I am a huge user of libraries. They're free (if you ignore taxes) and they are a great way to preview manga and anime. And given how many purchase requests I submitted that my libraries have followed up on, I've definitely contributed to the industry through them.

As for pirating... I don't want to get into all the details, but I've gradually moved away from fansubs save for older, unlicensed series. I know I'm not "entitled" to Legend of the Galactic Heroes, but I am appreciative that I was able to watch it in fansubs, and seriously hope that it someday gets even a bare-bones release. Fansubs can be a good way to spread the word on unlicensed series, which is something that I know many ANN staff members agree with. It's still pirating, and I'm not going to necessarily say I can justify it, just that I try to do it in a way that doesn't necessarily harm the industry.

I'm also very glad that there's more streaming in the states (even if I can't watch any of it here, the Japanese industry is so far behind the times) and it definitely helped me move past most of my bad old habits of fansub consuming. And I was reeeeaaallly bad, but my changeover is too long and complicated to get into here...

I think the anime industry is actually pretty ahead of the curve in terms of meeting demand, and certainly HBO could learn a thing or two from Crunchyroll. I hate Regions, I hate IP blocking, but I also believe that rationalized pirating is just a band-aid over the real problems of adapting to a global internet market.

Sunday Silence wrote:

The question should be what the Japanese end of the industry should realistically do for the fandom.

And to that, I ask, why should they even care about international fandom? The US market is the largest one for anime outside of Japan, and it's gradually become a land where a meager few thousand are willing to pay, roughly, the Japanese price of a single episode for an entire series.

Japanese companies have done a damn fine job of servicing their own market. The rest of the world? Well, we can generally rot, because even when we do pay for it we're pretty much just a drop in the bucket anyway.

Kakugo wrote:

The US market is the largest one for anime outside of Japan, and

Is it?

I mean, when I see anime and manga sales do like 10x+ better in countries like France I have to question that statement. Couple with other countries having much more anime on TV, and longer ones (like Detective Conan, Shin-chan, etc) I'll need to see some kind of source

TitanXL wrote:

Kakugo wrote:

The US market is the largest one for anime outside of Japan, and

Is it?

I mean, when I see anime and manga sales do like 10x+ better in countries like France I have to question that statement. Couple with other countries having much more anime on TV, and longer ones (like Detective Conan, Shin-chan, etc) I'll need to see some kind of source

That's come from Japanese and American industry sources, so I wouldn't doubt it. You have to remember that many countries like France only have a small fraction of the US' population. France's metropolitan population is only 65 million, including overseas territories. Even if anime is popular among a higher percentage of the population, it would have to be a HUGE percentage to approach the potential market in the US.

Plus, when it comes to English language markets, both UK and Australian companies have said they are still mostly dependent on US companies for dubbing. If the US wasn't a significant market outside Japan, that wouldn't be the case. That's largely why the US is so important to some Japanese industry insiders.

Here's some fairly in-depth info and it lists the sales by market "in order" as North America, Europe, and Asia (I assume this means outside Japan.)
http://www.jetro.org/trends/market_info_anime.pdf See page 15.

Chagen46 wrote:

Quote:

How else could you explain why 4Kids somehow managed to gain control of One Piece?

Because they had money.

Bzzzt. Nope. Because they know how to make money. I mean sure, having money is a pretty good indication of your business skills and is really helpful when you need to buy the license, but it's the Japanese IP-holders that decide if you're allowed to buy it or not. You need a business plan to convince them.

So, what 4Kids said something like: Well, we know this market like the back of our hand. We can get your IP the largest audience possible and make you a ton of cash, if you let us do our thing.

That made sense, so there you go. Too bad it had the nasty side effect of pissing off anyone over 13, but since they weren't part of the intended audience anyway...

Chagen46 wrote:

Quote:

How else could you explain why 4Kids somehow managed to gain control of One Piece?

Because they had money.

I don't know why some people have so much trouble understanding that money rules the world.

And look how that turned out. Money doesn't solve everything natch.

TitanXL wrote:

Kakugo wrote:

The US market is the largest one for anime outside of Japan, and

Is it?

I mean, when I see anime and manga sales do like 10x+ better in countries like France I have to question that statement. Couple with other countries having much more anime on TV, and longer ones (like Detective Conan, Shin-chan, etc) I'll need to see some kind of source

I think it's more complex in that. For example, what sells in one area doesn't quite translate as sales in a different area.

At one point, Metal Heroes did well in South America, yet had a lackluster splash in the USA (VR Troopers/Beetleborgs).

TitanXL wrote:

Kakugo wrote:

The US market is the largest one for anime outside of Japan, and

Is it?

I mean, when I see anime and manga sales do like 10x+ better in countries like France I have to question that statement.

France has the largest manga market after Japan. Third is Korea if I remember correctly. But anime and manga are different. The US might very well be the largest for animes.

Kakugo wrote:

Sunday Silence wrote:

The question should be what the Japanese end of the industry should realistically do for the fandom.

And to that, I ask, why should they even care about international fandom? The US market is the largest one for anime outside of Japan, and it's gradually become a land where a meager few thousand are willing to pay, roughly, the Japanese price of a single episode for an entire series.

Japanese companies have done a damn fine job of servicing their own market. The rest of the world? Well, we can generally rot, because even when we do pay for it we're pretty much just a drop in the bucket anyway.

Well if they don't care then they shouldn't spend their time and effort shutting down fansubs, because our english speaking market is not their japanese collecting disk market.

But finding people willing to pay for a product and service they can provide is basic business logic. It would be illogical for them to not attempt to service a consumer base for their goods.

Kakugo wrote:

Japanese companies have done a damn fine job of servicing their own market..

Have they? Pirating anime and manga are rampant problems in Japan, too. In an age where many people like reading on their cell phones, manga magazine circulation and tankoban sales have been dropping. Japanese companies do not make their own shows available streaming in Japan, even when they are available legally outside of Japan. Shonen Jump is willing to try digitally distributing their manga in North America, but not in Japan.

If I lived in Japan, I'd be angry about the way Japanese manga and anime companies "value" their fans!

Agent355 wrote:

By comparing buying used to piracy, you opened up that slippery slope can-of-worms. You aren't even the first person on this board to do so! You denied it, but then what is this statement:

Quote:

If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it. I might as well as pirate it

supposed to mean?

What it means is the part that everyone keeps editing out where I explained exactly what I meant by it:

If nobody involved with the release/creation of the content will reap the benefit of my purchase, I don't see the point to spending money on it I might as well as pirate it, which I haven't done for years, because

I can still access it, just like buying it used
Nobody who made it sees a penny of my money, just like buying it used
I spend $0, which is a huge benefit over buying it used.

I'm specifically talking about supporting the people making and releasing content. In that regard, it is just like piracy because (don't ignore the next part when/if you quote this) $0.00 and 0% of money spent on somebody buying a used copy goes to the people creating or releasing the content. Yes, some random person out in the world did support the release/creators at some point and may or may not do so in the future, but I'm not talking about that random person out in the world. I'm talking specifically about the person buying it used. I don't see the relevance of falling back on what some random person did and trying to apply that to someone else who did something different.

I'm not saying buying used is illegal or wrong to do, which piracy is imo. I'm not saying that buying used = piracy. What I am saying is that it doesn't support the people making/releasing the content, and that is an aspect it shares with piracy. Not that everything about both acts are identical, but that one trait is identical.

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