Forum - View topicANNCast - Super Lovers 64
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Angel M Cazares
 Posts: 5420 Location: Iscandar |
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As far as retro anime, for me the best era is 1995-2003. I know that it might look like a too broad of an era, but I believe that these years had some very revolutionary works that continue to influence modern anime. There were also works that might not have been that revolutionary, but they are in my opinion references of how particular genres should be handled (like Azumanga Daioh for school comedy and comedy in general and Inuyasha for long-running action/adventure).
This is my list of what I consider the best anime series that aired from 1995 to 2003. I apologize in advance if any of my dates are wrong. Neon Genesis Evangelion (1995) The Vision of Escaflowne (1996) Revolutionary Girl Utena (1997) Cowboy Bebop (1998) Trigun (1998) Turn A Gundam (1999) Inuyasha (2000) Noir (2001) Azumanga Daioh (2002) Haibane Renmei (2002) Planetes (2003) Fullmetal Alchemist (2003) |
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5502 Location: Mexico |
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This was a fun podcast. Super Lovers has definitely turned out to be super creepy and cringe-worthy. I'd read a bit of the manga before and had been mostly bored by it, rather than grossed out, but maybe my tolerance for such stuff was a lot higher back then. I got chills when Ren said Haru had been the one to teach him everything he is and knows, i was like "yeah, that doesn't sound like grooming, sure it doesn't". I'm also really bothered by how everyone's just okay with it? Like one of the twins literally walks in on his older brother trying to hump his teenage brother and he's just like "take your time"? I mean if they were going to go with this very questionable premise, at least they could've made a more realistic portrayal of the struggles the two guys would have to go through to be accepted as a couple.
I really like this new format, I hope it's working out for you guys as well. I'll be looking forward to the Kiznaiver episode 
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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What a treat this episode was! Thank you most kindly for answering my question, amongst many other things.
Owing to Jacob’s almost worrying enthusiasm for the abysmal, Super Lovers is proving to repay us for its existence fourfold. “Peak bad decision time” turns out to be of at least some benefit, judging by how heartily I laughed during the description of the latest episode. (If my suggestions count for anything, it would be for there to be more “breaking news” of this nature to unfold during future podcasts.) Jacob, I would be interested to learn how you lost your previous enthusiasm for the Fruits Basket anime. I recall you expressing how much it moved you way back when, even though you always had more to say about the manga. Zac, spoiler[you seemed to suggest that certain content would be in Vice and Luna “for subscribers only”. Should I pretend that I didn’t hear that?...] |
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BodaciousSpacePirate
 Subscriber Posts: 3017 |
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Excellent episode. I'm really enjoying this current guest-of-the-week format; I almost straight-up prefer this kind of thing to the single-series-focused episodes.
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Parsifal24
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As far as “best” era of Anime goes I would say the 80s is the best era for Anime, in particular, the height of the “OVA boom” as it allowed for series to get made that may not have had any other way to exist. Legend of The Galactic Heroes being the most prominent example I can think of.
I thankfully avoided Super Lovers I couldn't even make it through the first episode mostly due to the character design and color pallet. Though when it comes to Yaoi tropes I mostly shrug. I'm not the audience for it although I also find the psychology behind its enjoyment more interesting than the actual media being consumed. I wanted to like Bungo Stray Dogs but for me, it's sort of become what I was afraid it was going to become which was this cliché emotionally flat uninteresting series with characters that makes it feel like fan fiction. Netoge had a surprisingly good episode this week I was afraid it was going to be “very special episode” fodder. It actually made me care that something bad happened to Ako while the whole plot everyone came up with did seem over involved and convoluted. I wish I could care about Baccano but I never watched the Anime and the novels hold no real appeal for me good on you if you like it I just never got around to it and probably never will. I believe the series with the awful relationship Zac is thinking of is Black Bird although honestly almost anything by Mayu Shinjo could have that same kind of dynamic. Hot Gimmick was pretty nauseating as well. While prime Shojo Anime for me would be Full Moon O Sagashite though it does tone down some of the darker elements in the Manga. It still has a lot of the tropes of plucky girl wants to make her dreams come true and tragic illness. Older titles may have done it first but Full Moon is kind of a crystallization of those tropes for me. |
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walw6pK4Alo
 Posts: 9322 |
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Ouran came way too early to fall into the weird gap Jacob's describing. That gap between fansubbing and streaming dominance only really occurred after the market crash, when publishers weren't grabbing as much. I'd go further to say fansubbing never slowed down until just the past couple years (for TV anime) when fansubbers don't have the luxury of getting pre-air scripts.
My favorite period of anime is about 1982 through 1990, give or take a year for some titles. That's about the stretch of VOTOMS, Macross and Do You Remember Love, Genma Taisen, and Crusher Joe on the early end, and Patlabor, Lodoss, OEDO 808, and others. OVAs and movies from that stretch have the budget, attitude, and design that I love. It also helps that all of the anime from this time, assuming their materials are in good shape, can came back as BluRays. Many have, several dozens still await their chance. I only wish anime could have the same kind of love, time, and devotion poured into restoration work like awful B sci-fi and schlock horror films get in the west. Some piece of shit slasher from 1981 shot on 16mm? You bet that sucker has a BluRay out already. I'm so jealous of that when my favorite anime schlock will never even see DVD remasters. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I've said this before but dividing it by calendar decade has always been the worst way to talk about different eras in anime in my opinion. By and large the biggest changes in anime occurred in roughly the middle of the decade. Firstly, in the mid-80s the OVA boom happened and then once again late night TV anime took off in the mid to late 90s. Then there was another pretty huge shift in the early 00s as TV anime really took off in the US and flooded a bunch of money into the industry and then, in the late-ish 00s the bubble burst. I'd personally divide it as such:
The Early Years When: Sometime in the 1950s until about 1975. What got made: A bit of everything I guess? Lots of long-running TV shows aimed overwhelmingly at kids. Family friendly comedy/sitcom stuff. Lots of hero teams, and very super-sentai influenced stuff. Movies more akin to what you saw out of western animation. Iconic examples: Astro Boy, Speed Racer. Why: Creatively, Tezuka (or more indirectly) Disney. Although economically the whole "post-war economic miracle" was obviously pretty important too. How was it: This is so far before my time that I won't even try to comment. The Mecha and Sci-Fi Period When: Roughly 1975 to 1985. What got made: More of the same as the early years to some degree but with tons more Sci-Fi TV shows. I mean, robots (giant or otherwise) were nothing new but this is when things turned away from the more fantastical, sentai-esque stuff and more towards the actual science-fictiony stuff. Iconic examples: Star Blazers, Captain Harlock, Mobile Suit Gundam, SDF Macross. Why: I couldn't speak to the underlying reasons but on the creative side, guys like Leiji Matsumoto, Yoshiyuki Tomino, and Yoshikazu Yasuhiko obviously had a big role. How was it: Eh. Honestly, early 80s tends to be about my limit (especially for TV shows) so I don't have that strong of an opinion. I can appreciate a lot of what this era did in terms of pushing the medium forward but the actual results were more mixed in my opinion. Then again, I'm not super familiar with this period and I do like some of the vintage stuff from the tail end like Crusher Joe, Space Adventure Cobra and Castle of Cagliostro. (I think movies were in a better place than TV shows at this point because they had a fair bit more money to work with). The Home Video Boom When: Roughly 1985 to 1995. What got made: So many random, experimental, often super gory OVAs! Tons of high budget movies too especially later on. Not a ton of note in terms of TV (arguably quite a lot less than the previous era) but a few big mega hits that really played a big role in what came next. Iconic examples: Robot Carnival, Akira, Porco Rosso, Ninja Scroll, Dragonball Z, Sailor Moon. Why: The advent of home video (coupled with an economic bubble) created a huge new market for previously unsellable purely adult oriented content that now found a home in video rental stores. Suddenly a whole range of material took off. How was it: Pretty great! This era gets remembered to some degree negatively mostly for its ridiculous graphic ultraviolence but A) That was actually pretty fun in a lot of cases and B) That was largely secondary. This was such a great period of unchecked experimentation. So many weird, experimental projects got green-lit and once that first round of stuff found its way to the US, we also saw some impressive high budget movies too like Patlabor. I guess if there's a downside it's that there's a ton that amounts to "Hey, this is a neat little thing!" more so than a real masterpiece but still, there's a lot of great stuff. The Late Night TV Boom and Western DVD Boom When: Roughly 1995 to 2005. What got made: A ton of TV shows for an adult (or at least older teen) audience and a lot more stuff with international influence/appeal. (Plus still a ton of increasingly high budget movie projects). Iconic examples: Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, Fullmetal Alchemist, Spirited Away, Millenium Actress. Why: Late night airings for TV anime became a thing. Then, subsequently, a lot of that stuff made it onto Toonami and blew up in the West. That created a huge boom and an absolutely massive spike in TV anime. How was it: Fantastic! To some degree this era was an extension of the previous one. The home video boom kept going well into the early 00s although it admittedly skewed toward less experimental if also more polished productions (which wasn't a bad thing). Simultaneously though, we got an absolute ton of great TV shows like never before. The Bubble Burst and Subsequent Dead Zone When: Roughly 2005 to 2012. What got made: Er...not a lot relatively speaking. TV anime kept going sort but there was a lot less variety and a lot more really insubstantial otaku shows. Also, movies and OVAs basically died off entirely save the odd later day Ghibli. Iconic examples: Haruhi Suzumiya, K-ON, Bakemonogatari. Why: The bubble built on Western DVD sales was hopelessly unsustainable and predictably bloated and eventually burst. It didn't help either than a lot of big names simply seemed to ease off at this point. How was it: Pretty weak. I mean, we still saw a ton of pure content for at least a couple years before the bubble officially burst but honestly, in retrospect, I think things had noticeably started to bloat even before the bubble really burst in late 2007. And after that, we saw a drastic drop in the quantity of new productions and a lot more studios playing it safe. There were still a couple exemplary years in there but they seemed more the exception than the rule. The Advent of Streaming When: Roughly 2012 to Present. What got made: A bloody ton of TV anime of all sorts. Iconic examples: Madoka Magica, Fate/Zero, Attack on Titan, Space Dandy, Lupin III. Why: Streaming! Anime finally found a new business model and while it isn't as lucrative as the DVD boom, its hopefully a lot more stable (even if we are in a little bit of a bubble still). How was (or is) it: Great! Sadly, there's still not much going on in movies outside of like...Hosoda and some spinoffs. However, I feel like we've gotten back to pretty close to where we were when we first had the heyday of late night anime. There's a ton of crap out there obviously but that's always been the case to some degree. It's nice to see too that a lot of the big hits are actually in line with what's good. |
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rizuchan
 Collector Extraordinaire Posts: 974 Location: Kansas |
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Yeah, I don't "get" Super Lovers at all. It's like, for the first half of the show they were playing "innocent, but a bit too touchy-feely" family, but then Haru and Ren start full on making out and no one acknowledges that the relationship has changed...? And like everyone can see that their relationship is 100% inappropriate and all they do is either roll their eyes or go "kawaii...!!" Now I'm convinced that Haru molested his other brothers and that's why they've normalized his behavior and when you look at it that way this show is really quite dark... I actually dropped it when Haru started making his "I clearly groomed this kid" comments. Apparently that's where my tolerance for creep ends. But after this podcast I got curious again and had to catch up on it last night. Thanks Jacob, now I too am on the trainwreck for the long haul. 
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Angel M Cazares
Posts: 5420 Location: Iscandar |
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I just want to point out that the Madoka Magica tv series aired in its entirety in 2011. The first half of Fate/Zero aired in Fall 2011, but its second half did air in 2012. |
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invalidname
 Contributor Posts: 2439 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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And the question is, should these be treated as turning points from the dead zone into the streaming era, or do they really belong to one era or the other? Trying to delineate these things with dates is probably a fool's errand, so maybe it's better to ask: were these shows made for the pre-existing niche otaku audience, or for a wider audience (including westerners) that streaming opened up? Would they have been viable a few years earlier or later? I'd also argue that some of the sore spots of the dead zone are still with us, just in a different form. Bitch all you want about moé shows pandering to buy-it-all otaku back in the day, and I'll reply that I'd like to know who the hell is watching and buying all these gamer culture shows (not just "trapped in a game" like SAO, but all this gamer-mindset stuff like And You Thought There Is Never A Girl Online or My Mental Choices are Completely Interfering with My School Romantic Comedy) |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Yeah, I perhaps could also have said 2011 instead of 2012. The prior was something of a turning point in my opinion. I'm not sure if streaming really started to make an impact until a little later though which is why I chose 2012. Madoka after all didn't even stream as it aired. It wasn't until the next year (2012) that it was put up on Crunchyroll. Technically though, yeah, it actually predates that period.
Indeed. There are no absolute dates. I think that's where 2011 was a very interesting year though. Shows like Madoka, or Fate/Zero for that matter, both were definitely for the very bankable otaku audience of the time so in a lot of ways they are a product of the previous era. (That follows too given that I don't think streaming really started to make a financial impact until after Madoka). However, I also think they both represented an underlying push to do more even within the confines of the market at the time. Both were ultimately shows that could comfortably fall back on sales from that audience but both also tried to be something more. One could even argue that such shows (particularly Madoka) really jump-started a fresh wave of creativity in the industry.
Those same people, largely. I don't really think that audience has gone anywhere. Their tastes have just shifted slightly. Nowadays these awful, gameified otaku fantasies are all the rage more so than the classic moe stuff. Anyway though, I don't much care. The problem was never really that there was a market for this crap. It was more the lack of a market for too much else. That seems to have changed though for the most part. |
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Zin5ki
Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Thank you for your compendious timeline, ikillchicken. Though I have one issue to raise:
Surely everyone acquired a few favourites during these years! As I am sure you will agree, so many series that are still held in high regard were created in 2006 alone. |
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Ammonite
Posts: 22 |
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[Post deleted.]
Last edited by Ammonite on Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Oh absolutely. Like I said, I'm just speaking relatively. Although, I will admit that 2006 never really did a lot for me. Most of the stuff that people seem to remember from that year I didn't much care for (although Kemonozume was...neat). '05 didn't really impress either aside from Mushishi. Still, we did get Moribito, Dennou Coil, Mononoke, and Baccano all in '07. So yeah, there is a decent argument that the "dead zone" didn't really begin in earnest until '08 after the bubble actually burst. Then again, I also feel like there was a bit of a "moe boom" that also kinda distinguished this era and that at least got its start as early as 2006. (I think it was largely post-Haruhi and/or Kanon '06 although I *think* it also kinda went hand in hand with the trend of adapting VNs that flared up around that time). Of course, even during that period there were still some gems too. '10 was a actually a pretty good year in my opinion too albeit almost entirely on the strength of the noitaminA block (House of Five Leaves, Tatami Galaxy, Shiki and Princess Jellyfish) although I also adored Time of Eve. And even during some of the more "off" years we still collectively got Michiko & Hatchin, Kaiba and Redline among others. And of course, these are all just my favorites. In the end, it's all subjective and different people are gonna have different perspectives. Although more objectively, there was indeed a financial bloat and crash that occurred over this period so I think it is definitely valid to view it as a distinct period if we're breaking it down that way. |
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Merengues.Pop
Posts: 22 |
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I just want to point that I'm really disappointed that the description of the podcast had the reference to episodes 25' and 26' of EVA but I had to listen for nearly an hour to notice they never talked about it, talk about letdown.
I don't know, I remember shows as far as 1987 and the first show that made a true impression on me was Gunbusters; Hideaki Anno's direction pre-depression was just amazing, I remember how this show made me go wow! in a way that neither Dragon Ball, Ranma or Sailor Moon (the only animes running in my country at the time), did ever. But I think the big guns didn't came until the mid-late nineties. I began caring about anime with Utena, Ghost in the Shell, FLCL, and of course Evangelion and the now plainly upsetting vision of Anno compared to his previous work... If you watch them, you can really see that they have aged well, particularly FLCL and EVA that still look good, so yes, I like to think that was a great time for anime. Now, the present days also have their merit. Some of the shows that I have most enjoyed came during the last ten years; Hyouka, Madoka, Steins;Gate, Mawaru Penguindrum, Oregairu, Nodame Cantabile, all Hosoda's films, Kara no Kyoukai, the rebuild of EVA, the Monogatari series, FMA Brotherhood, Tatami Galaxy, TTGL, and Rainbow... I'm sure at least 75% of those show will age well, so I'd say we're in a pretty darn great time now. |
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