×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Leaf Forced to Release Game Source Code




Note: this is the discussion thread for this article

Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
halo



Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 356
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:32 am Reply with quote
Interesting. My question is, how much XviD video was actualy used? If they used over a cetain lenght of video in each title (iirc 12 minutes or over) they are also required to pay a license fee to the MPEG LA, which I'd be willing to bet they didn't if they didn't even follow a simple GPL.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8202
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:38 am Reply with quote
Sounds like a big collective "oops" at Leaf then.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jtnishi



Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:56 pm Reply with quote
Isn't this item a bit old? The items on the page look to be dated from December last year.

That said, someone must've done something really unusual to create a problem like this, I think. Either that, or I really need to read up more carefully on the provisions of the GPL. I would've presumed that even if the games used the Xvid decoding libraries, that it wouldn't force the games themselves to be GPL'ed. Or maybe they did something silly, like inline the decoder directly into the game source, instead of relying on a library call to do so.

In any case, I'd be surprised if the source code could be compiled and directly run to get the game in full. While the GPL would apply to the code for the game if the interpretation is correct, and therefore the engine, it does not apply to the intellectual property used to make up the game. In easier words: even if Leaf were required to release said source code out, it's not like the characters and stories would also have to be licensed similarly. So no cheap copies of ToHeart2 probably. Just a game engine, at best. That said, I am not a lawyer, so take my opinion with a big pinch of salt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mskala



Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:02 pm Reply with quote
If the GPL requires them to release source code, but the "source code" they release isn't really enough to compile and create the whole game, then they have not complied with the GPL, and they're setting themselves up to lose a lawsuit. The GPL is pretty specific that yes, you really do have to release the code, and all of the code.

If there are other conflicting copyrights, for instance on video and audio assets, which would forbid them from releasing those with the code, then they're really in a world of suck, because they're going to have to stop distributing the products in question entirely, and actually even if they did they'd still be in a world of suck, because they'd still be bound by the GPL for the copies they already distributed.

The GPL says: if you release binaries, then you have to release the source, the real source, and all of the real source, sufficient to re-create the binaries, no excuses.

As for linking versus inlining the code: the GPL claims to cover linking as well as inlining, because of exactly the loophole you describe. There is some debate over whether the GPL actually has the power to do that, but the GPL claims to and no court has invalidated that part of it yet.

Has anyone who has obtained this source code, placed it on the Web yet? That'd be really useful to the community.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jtnishi



Joined: 24 Jul 2003
Posts: 62
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:19 pm Reply with quote
mskala wrote:
If the GPL requires them to release source code, but the "source code" they release isn't really enough to compile and create the whole game, then they have not complied with the GPL, and they're setting themselves up to lose a lawsuit. The GPL is pretty specific that yes, you really do have to release the code, and all of the code.

If there are other conflicting copyrights, for instance on video and audio assets, which would forbid them from releasing those with the code, then they're really in a world of suck, because they're going to have to stop distributing the products in question entirely, and actually even if they did they'd still be in a world of suck, because they'd still be bound by the GPL for the copies they already distributed.

The GPL says: if you release binaries, then you have to release the source, the real source, and all of the real source, sufficient to re-create the binaries, no excuses.

As for linking versus inlining the code: the GPL claims to cover linking as well as inlining, because of exactly the loophole you describe. There is some debate over whether the GPL actually has the power to do that, but the GPL claims to and no court has invalidated that part of it yet.

Has anyone who has obtained this source code, placed it on the Web yet? That'd be really useful to the community.

I'm still wary about the provisions of the GPL in this case. Yes, the GPLed code has to be available. But aren't video, sound, and images usually considered data assets, not code? If someone created a forum, using GPLed software with their own mod hacks, and then skins the forum using their own graphics, one would would reasonably expect that the GPL would require the forum owners to release their modified code under the GPL, since that's clearly something covered. However, one would not expect data assets under that forum (banner graphics, etc.) to also be GPLed.

Without the data assets, such as text content, videos, and such, all you're left with is a game engine. You could use it to make your own RenAi games, but other than that, the code's mostly useless to anyone who isn't a developer.

I know there'd be copyright issues, but presumably only to copyrighted code (ie: the whole IBM/SCO affair).

And as for inlining versus library call, the reason I bring it up is because of a clause in the GPL that reads:

Quote:
If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works.


One using a library call could easily separate out those parts from the code that is GPLed. And in this case, we're talking about a video library, that won't break the application should it be removed (just video playback). One could argue the games to be independant and separate then from the GPLed code. This might be an incorrect interpretation. Again, IANAL. In any case, if the code was inlined, it'd be a different story, since one could not reasonably separate out the GPLed code from the non-GPLed code. The game code would be dependant, and thus required to be GPLed. Maybe this is the situation...

I'm always a bit overcautious with looking at the GPL, because of these terms. Thankfully, I have never come into a situation where I've been forced to modify GPLed code itself beyond what would be required to configure software to run (configuration parameters hardcoded in a config file, etc.).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cyrax777



Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 1825
Location: the desert
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:31 pm Reply with quote
I have a feeling its just the game engine not the whole game.

simular to when ID released the doom and quake code its was just the engines.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger My Anime My Manga
mskala



Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:02 pm Reply with quote
jtnishi wrote:
mskala wrote:
If the GPL requires them to release source code, but the "source code" they release isn't really enough to compile and create the whole game, then they have not complied with the GPL, and they're setting themselves up to lose a lawsuit. The GPL is pretty specific that yes, you really do have to release the code, and all of the code.


I'm still wary about the provisions of the GPL in this case. Yes, the GPLed code has to be available. But aren't video, sound, and images usually considered data assets, not code? If someone created a forum, using GPLed software with their own mod hacks, and then skins the forum using their own graphics, one would would reasonably expect that the GPL would require the forum owners to release their modified code under the GPL, since that's clearly something covered. However, one would not expect data assets under that forum (banner graphics, etc.) to also be GPLed.


A "forum" (I *hate* calling Web BBSes that, but people do) is an interactive service. Users connect to the Web site and use the software on the operator's machine. That's very different from selling a product that includes the data assets tightly coupled into a single work with the GPLed code, on a disc for people to run on their own computers. I think the intention of the GPL is that if you do the selling-a-disc thing in the way that these games were, and some of the code you link to is GPL, then the whole shebang, including the graphics, has to become GPL. And if your other obligations prohibit doing that, then you're not allowed to distribute the resulting work at all.

There's talk about a future version of the GPL being expanded to include the Web-services case too - and I think you're right that it's not included in the current version - but that doesn't seem to be relevant here.

jtnishi wrote:
And as for inlining versus library call, the reason I bring it up is because of a clause in the GPL that reads:

Quote:
If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works.


One using a library call could easily separate out those parts from the code that is GPLed.


The Free Software Foundation is clearly on record as claiming that using a library call still counts as including the code, and still causes the program that uses the call to become GPL-infected; they think that the "mere aggregation" clause doesn't apply to that situation.

Also - great, so if you sell a package of just the graphics without the engine, then that package doesn't have to be GPL. When you're selling the working game, including engine and graphics, you still have to provide source code sufficient to create the working game, including engine and graphics!

I'm not convinced about the linking thing myself - I think that if you could substitute in some other library that implements the same call, then your code can't be said to be dependent on the GPLed code, and so your code shouldn't become GPL-infected - much the same argument you seem to be making. But RMS says otherwise, and as far as I know, it's never been tested in court.

A very important question would be what did the company release? The answer is almost certainly "the least they thought they could get away with", but I've no idea what that it. Does anyone have a copy of what they released? At the moment we're just theorizing about what they might think their obligations are. I'm not eager to try to write to them in Japan, in a language I don't read, and attempt to import what is probably the source code for an H-game through Canada Customs, but I'd love to see just what's included in that code.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
roxfan



Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 38
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:13 pm Reply with quote
I have the code, it's a 6MB zip so obviously it doesn't include graphics and sound. Apparently Leaf deleted all comments, but the code seems to be compilable. Also, the tree includes XViD sources so I guess it was compiled into the engine, not linked dynamically which led to GPL violation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mskala



Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:39 pm Reply with quote
roxfan wrote:
I have the code, it's a 6MB zip so obviously it doesn't include graphics and sound. Apparently Leaf deleted all comments, but the code seems to be compilable. Also, the tree includes XViD sources so I guess it was compiled into the engine, not linked dynamically which led to GPL violation.


I don't think deleting comments is GPL-compliant. There was a fuss about that with some NVidia video-card drivers which had been passed through an obfuscator before being released. The rule is supposed to be that the source code is to be in whatever is the preferred form for making modifications - which would include comments. Doing something to the source to make it harder to understand, is exactly against that requirement.

However, it may be close enough that the copyright holders drop their objection.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
AngelHedgie



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:15 am Reply with quote
This is actually really bad for Leaf, since they can't stop people from going out and distributing the game on their own:

Quote:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.

If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code.


Yep, that's from the GPL itself.

In addition, while I do agree that actually putting XviD code in the game directly is the height of stupidity, the fact is that the FSF is actively encouraging library linking as a means of GPL propagation.

mskala, yes, they're looking to force service providers to give out source code for any modifications they make to inhouse GPL'd software that runs the service with GPLv3. But I think that will be a huge mistake on the FSF's part, as it would put them in the crosshairs of a great many people.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group