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REVIEW: Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence DVD




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Tenchi



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 4462
Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:17 am Reply with quote
Quote:
For such a heavily hyped film, the extras are remarkably sparse, consisting of director's commentary, a making-of feature, and some previews.


True, but, just a few years ago, director's commentary tracks were a pipe dream on domestic anime releases, so I don't consider anything with a commentary track to be too sparse. I was pleased as punch to have Urusei Yatsura: Beautiful Dreamer with Oshii recording a special commentary track just for a western audience, and otherwise that DVD was completely bare bones.

Is there a "making of" video from the Japanese DVD they could have included here?
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evilnick06



Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:22 am Reply with quote
Anime cry I have seent he second movie yet because of my stupid block buster they have one copy and they miss placed it or somebody stole it so I haven't seeen it yet. I hear it is really good is it?
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Jimmy Balls-O-Steel



Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 60
Location: The Great White North
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:37 am Reply with quote
I'm guessing that the writer of this review started on it a couple of weeks ago, because Dreamworkds/Go-Fish have already started a DVD re-call campaign.

And really now, why the Hell didn't they produce a dub for this movie? When you consider the fact that this movie is packed with all kinds of visuals, plus all of that insanely dense dialogue, one would think that not producing a dub would be borderline retarded. How are we supposed to appreciate all the cool visuals when we're too busy trying to make sense of what we're simultaneously reading?

I can understand not having a dub for Milleneum Actress, because the lip motions looked like they were tailored to fit the words coming out of their mouths, instead of the generic lip-flapping usually found in anime, including GitS 2 (not that I have a problem with it, mind you).

Man, I so wish Manga released this movie. Say what you want about them, but I'm more than certain that they would have done a much better job. And they would have at least given us the choice of either watching it dubbed or subbed.
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ACDragonMaster



Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 405
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:53 am Reply with quote
Eh, I think the complexity and obscurity of the dialogue is probably exactly the reason they didn't do a dub. It would have been extremely difficult to retain all the stuff from the Japanese and yet still make it work in English.

Subtitles aren't *that* hard to ignore while watching. If you give yourself enough practice, it's easy to glance at the subtitles for only a split-second per line and spend the rest the time enjoying the pretty animation. On top of that, Innocence rarely introduces big dramatic scenes when there's dialogue, most the eye candy happens when there's none, anyway.
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the_minion



Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:09 pm Reply with quote
So question...was I the only one let down by the real plot of hte movie? It was all just a kidnapping story that really got mucked down with too much of the usual cyber punk paranoia. Noow I'm not bashing Ghost in the Shell at all because I'm a huge fan of the original movie and Stand alone complex but Innocence to me was just eye candy with very little else to be filling. Why did they have all the hacking of ghosts and misleading "leads" when it was just a simple kidnapping case? I wanted something much deeper and all i got was fluff with a miasma of what ifs thrown on top of it. Why couldn't it have been a story of how the Major came back to reality? I wanna know that. It was utterly beautiful but it left me flat.
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2075
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:50 pm Reply with quote
That's exactly it - it's shallow and pretentious in its storytelling. It tries to come off as being some incredibly intelligent film, but instead consistently drives the single point it has about what life by explaining it, beating a dead horse, exhuming it, and beating it again.

While it was gorgeous to watch, I'm not one for the psuedo-psychological films like this that offer very little in the way of substance.
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larmesdesucre



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 11
Location: Ventura, CA, US
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:56 pm Reply with quote
Jimmy Balls-O-Steel wrote:
And really now, why the Hell didn't they produce a dub for this movie?

I summarized my thoughts on this in another thread:

"That's a non-issue. Dreamworks should be praised for respecting the integrity of the original acting work under the direction of the film's creators by not degrading the film with a horrible English dub of their own doing. Same goes for their release of Millennium Actress. Thank god Manga Entertainment didn't have the rights to Innocence's American release, an hour and a half of having to listen to Richard Epcar and Crispin Freeman's attempts at being convincing actors. Outside of anime it's more difficult to find dubs, and even moreso outside of America, because the audience generally values the integrity of the original voicework done under the direction of the work's original creators. But disrespectful corporations like ADV have had no qualms about trying to commercialize, homogenize, and generally degrade anime so as to appeal to the lowest common denominator. The stupidest people become the core audience, and thus great Japanese works get turned into laughable piles of garbage with consistently mediocre English dubs. That's what you wanted for Innocence?"

And oh how I eagerly anticipate the cliched "anime is a visual medium meant to be viewed without reading subtitles" argument that naive anime dub fans seem to think has weight and thus love to use, because it just makes me laugh as it's more "pretentious storytelling" than what goes on in this film. It's the guy-eating-a-burger speaking on the behalf of the cow. All film is a visual medium, and nearly every film-maker, animation and otherwise, ever asked about it in interviews prefers their work to be subtitled rather than dubbed. You're damn right it's not the exact experience the original audience of the original language gets when they watch it, it's the universally accepted method of showing it to an audience of another language in the least affected way by taking away nothing from the original film, which is why it's the standard for all foreign film, with anime being an anomaly due to bastard corporations appealing to the lowest common denominator. But why should we care what the film-makers want, they only MADE the thing.

Jimmy Balls-O-Steel wrote:
How are we supposed to appreciate all the cool visuals when we're too busy trying to make sense of what we're simultaneously reading?

Some people start the practice of this arcane art "reading" at a young age and don't find it to be such an arduous task while visually multi-tasking, which raises concerns about how you drive. Not that I'd expect better from someone with "Balls-O-Steel" in their screen name.
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Laton



Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:38 am Reply with quote
larmesdesucre wrote:
Jimmy Balls-O-Steel wrote:
And really now, why the Hell didn't they produce a dub for this movie?

I summarized my thoughts on this in another thread:

"That's a non-issue. Dreamworks should be praised for respecting the integrity of the original acting work under the direction of the film's creators by not degrading the film with a horrible English dub of their own doing. Same goes for their release of Millennium Actress. Thank god Manga Entertainment didn't have the rights to Innocence's American release, an hour and a half of having to listen to Richard Epcar and Crispin Freeman's attempts at being convincing actors. Outside of anime it's more difficult to find dubs, and even moreso outside of America, because the audience generally values the integrity of the original voicework done under the direction of the work's original creators. But disrespectful corporations like ADV have had no qualms about trying to commercialize, homogenize, and generally degrade anime so as to appeal to the lowest common denominator. The stupidest people become the core audience, and thus great Japanese works get turned into laughable piles of garbage with consistently mediocre English dubs. That's what you wanted for Innocence?"

And oh how I eagerly anticipate the cliched "anime is a visual medium meant to be viewed without reading subtitles" argument that naive anime dub fans seem to think has weight and thus love to use, because it just makes me laugh as it's more "pretentious storytelling" than what goes on in this film. It's the guy-eating-a-burger speaking on the behalf of the cow. All film is a visual medium, and nearly every film-maker, animation and otherwise, ever asked about it in interviews prefers their work to be subtitled rather than dubbed. You're damn right it's not the exact experience the original audience of the original language gets when they watch it, it's the universally accepted method of showing it to an audience of another language in the least affected way by taking away nothing from the original film, which is why it's the standard for all foreign film, with anime being an anomaly due to bastard corporations appealing to the lowest common denominator. But why should we care what the film-makers want, they only MADE the thing.

Jimmy Balls-O-Steel wrote:
How are we supposed to appreciate all the cool visuals when we're too busy trying to make sense of what we're simultaneously reading?

Some people start the practice of this arcane art "reading" at a young age and don't find it to be such an arduous task while visually multi-tasking, which raises concerns about how you drive. Not that I'd expect better from someone with "Balls-O-Steel" in their screen name.



Oh my, so much crap. What a waste of all those words.

Please, don't talk about things you don't know anything about.

There are a lot of contries where dubbing is a standard, and I live in one. Dubs can be of very high quality with enough money and potenial buyers behind it.

And please.... don't try to make us believe that all japanese anime series are masterpieces. This is just bullshit. (Sorry, but it's true.) There good ones, bad one, mediocre ones. And above all: Time is money. So the production of the japanese language track has to be fast. Quality comes second. This doesn't mean that all language tracks are bad, but they are no master pieces as well.

So, there's nothing wrong with producing dubs, except in your mind. If you don't like it, then don't buy it, but spare us this crap.
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Steventheeunuch





PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:01 am Reply with quote
edit- removed larmesdesucre's stuff, you can read it above if you want.

larmesdesucre wrote:


Actually, if this was to be dubbed under the same continuity that the TV series and first GitS films were done under, they would have been recorded elsewhere.

I know people shouldn't always have to humble themselves with crap like "in my utterly honest opinion that is only my thoughts ever", however since when did Manga Entertainment not provide a Japanese track with such a large-scale (relativly speaking) film? Sure, they may overload it with pointless tracks, but atleast they didn't put "Hearing impaired only" subtitles on the first print and not realise until a majority of people actually bought it. Praise Dreamworks? More like berate them for sheer stupidity on no one but their own part. If you're going to go for "purely subtitled releases", make sure you get it right the first time.

Ontop of that, I find Richard Epcar to be a rather enjoyable voice actor and I really do appreciate all of the roles he does. I can't imagine Batou without him.

New Zealand, the UK, France, Australia, and many other nations use dubbed versions of Animation simply because it works easier. People are used to hearing English, or the language they are native to, and it's been this way ever since there was the technology to do so. All Disney films are release in native tounges in every language across the world, as are a lot of Ghibli films, and they are revered as two of the most popular studios in the world. Hell (and don't take this too far to heart), Miyazaki even prefers the French dubbed Porco Rosso with Jean Reno.

Oh but come on, it's not as if this is even about ADV. But on the subject, has ADV even come close to say, I don't know, 4Kids with most of their properties? Have they gone out of the way to completely rewrite and retool the majority of the shows they have? Was Gantz released edited as "Johnny the supershooter"? Perhaps if Anime in general didn't appeal to the lowest common denominator, and the original Japanese producers and sponsers put more than the bare minimum into most titles, Anime could possibly be a bit more revered. But so long as Anime continue to produce cookie cutter titles (which they do, and in spades mind you. Grenadier, for example), any real credibility for Anime as a whole just goes straight down the toilet.


To be perfectly honest, though, if a film maker did not want his work to be portrayed in a foreign language at all, and if it actually mattered to him/her, they simply wouldn't allow it. Either they would fight for it not to happen, or they wouldn't produce it anyway. And yet, lots of directors from all over the world sign contracts and enter into agreements so that just that can happen.

Ontop of that, why should we, people who have grown up all of their lives wathcing things, be it American films, TV shows, or cartoons in English, give up how they watch their films simply because someone on the internet has a beef with how it's done? You assert that anyone who likes a dub is in the lowest common denominator.. because you say so? Because somehow you are some kind of authority on the subject? Don't you realise who most of these films and series are produced for?

I can read things with subtitles. My father and brother, on the other hand, don't like watching things that way. It's not natural for them, and to somehow enforce or demand they change their viewing habits for someone else just ruins the entire point of cinema that isn't held by some beret wearing, mocha sipping snob on the internet- enjoyment.

Driving is somewhat different to watching a film, because while you're driving, the risk of crashing or injuring yourself is high when you don't multi-task. Film, on the otherhand, doesn't require multi-tasking if you aren't used to it, and therefore your mind doesn't really devote as much attention to it.

And on the subject of names, or even avatars for that matter, I'm glad you've chosen that ugly, pie-faced webcam trolling face as an avatar so I can avoid obnoxious, pretenciously shitty posting from now on.
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Ghiblix2



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 42
Location: San Diego
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:38 pm Reply with quote
Well here's my take on dubbing. If you can't do it right, dont' do it. I would much rather read subtitles than listen to jackasses pretending to act. Like it or not, American appreciation for anime isn't all that remarkable considering that animation scene is monopolized by the you know whos. Ever taken a look at the top 10 best animated movies of last year was? Same two companies right? I don't have to tell you who they are I hope.

Still, GITS has been safe from shitty dubbing I think thanks to efforts taking by people I don't know of (maybe Production I.G. themselves and maybe someone else) but certainly appreciate.

As for this DVD, for people who are put off by the intellectual arguments they address and think of them as superficial crap the director put in, please don't be so. I really disagree with ANN's review of this movie and if you're a serious GITS fan please ignore the review, this movie carries a lot more weight than mere eye candy. It took me many viewings before I truly appreciated this movie, and I don't imagine anyone being able to do so in one sitting.

As for the short-sighted reviewer of this movie saying the literary quotes are unnessessary is just moronic and annoyed me enough to write this. Without bothering to talk about all the profoundly insightful questions the movie addresses about conciousness and existence, the reviewer chose to dwell on quotes that he doesn't feel Batou is smart enough to say. Batou, a member of Section 9; which is both an anti-terrorist as well as intelligence division having a bit of literary knowledge wouldn't be such a crazy thing. Yes, the mood of the movie is drab, but look at the nature of their work, I'm sure murder isn't all that uplifting of a field and certainly with the loss of Motoko, Section 9 would rightfully be in such a slump. And if this is a movie that challenges you with many quotes and ideas that makes you think and do some research...then it has done its job.

It's true, an intellectually lazy action buff (and good for them) may not like this movie but as far as I'm concerned it is something that gets better everytime I sit down to see it. ANN needs better reviewers...
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Axaul Conners



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 12
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:11 am Reply with quote
You know, the english dub was pretty much on par with GITSSAC, which was great, because unfortunately I wasn't born with the gift of being able to watch and read complex matters in subtitle. But if people start to bitch to me about how uncultured I am simply because I want to watch someting in a language I can understand, it makes me be glad that I'm not as petty as some people can be.

And funny enough some people in Australia think that the original DreamWorks "Schlocky Action Cover" was better than the one with the basset hound, which we got. I felt the DreamWorks cover completely misrepresented what the movie was about and what it contained. And funny enough, the people who thought this cover was better hated the movie because they thought it was going to be an all out action slug.

And you know what, a bad film is a bad film, no matter what country you make it in. Just because something is made in Japan doesn't make it superiour to anyone else. And to be honest, the more I watch anime, the more I've begun to appreciate the classic Disney Animations. And you can't call me uncultured there, because unlike most fans who reckon they're 'open-minded' just because they watch something from Japan, I enjoy japanese and eastern story-telling, without having to shun the great works of western story-telling as well.
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