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While my personal definition ignores some of the Etymology of the term, I still believe the distinction is artificial.

Its little more then jargon-ism, quite frankly.

"moe" in the context describing a single characteristic in which a specific subset of people find appealing.

or

"moe" could be a verb describing a person who love this specific traits.

or

"moe" could mean a type of aesthetics design to appeal to or pander to said group of enthusiast.

I see this word used in all three context, but I dislike such catch all terms, but that's quite apart from the reality in which the word is used.

That's why it is my "personal" definition.

"Moe" means a character is suppose to be cute to somebody. I suppose that's a little different from just cute, but because we have to spend so much time hashing it out over a simple statement that's why I dislike this kind of words.

I hate discussions of what moe is. What is moe? Everyone seems to have a different definition of moe. Moe is a million different things. For some people it is everything they hate, for some people it’s everything they love. No matter how many definitions of moe are put out there, I don’t think there will ever be a definition that everyone can agree on.

What I can say is that I can pretty much tell whether something is going to get labeled moe(I have watched a lot of “Moe”). To me, Queen’s Blade isn’t moe but I know it’s going to get labeled moe, because by someone’s definition out there it is moe. Pretty much anything that has a majority of cute female characters, or stars one, I can count on it being labeled moe by someone. I am fairly sure, that moe is just an art style by now. The same way I can tell whether a manga is shoujo or not by looking at the art, I can tell whether something is moe or not. You can define shoujo as being aimed at a younger female demographic, but if you try to define it as a genre; If you try to describe the sort of motifs and themes that generally go into them, you might be able to describe most of them, but you will never be able to have a definition that encompasses every shoujo title, otherwise you'll end up describing so many things, you will end up where you started, with nothing concrete. There will always be some outliers. I think moe has arrived at a point where there are so many titles labeled moe out there, that there is no really good definition of it.

I think anything that KyoAni or Key makes next will get the Moe label just based on the artwork alone. Imagine if Haruhi or Higurashi were done with an artwork completely opposite of a cutesy style, would they still be moe? I don’t think we will see a decline in moe. It’s an art style. As long as people like cute female characters in their anime, I think we’ll continue to see more shows that are moe or at least labeled that way.

When I started this episode I expected another sermon from Father Zac about threats to our otaku souls. I was pleasantly surprised to find a good discussion thanks to the inclusion of wildarmsheero. Of course, I would listen to any discussion featuring Mike Toole.

I only wished that a clearer definition of moe had been established. I had never heard of "moe" being used as a verb (as in being "moe for" something).

Last edited by xBTAx on Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

egoist wrote:

neocloud9 wrote:

I'm loving all this praise Angel Beats is getting... Gawd, I hope that gets licensed soon.

Yeah, Angel Beats! is great. Most probably didn't approach it because they think it's like other Key shows. I won't say it truly applies, but in my opinion most of the hate it's gotten on the Internet was due to Clannad's hardcore fans.

So, basically, if Key had 3 audiences they could go for... one who dislikes Key, another who adores Key, and others in the neutral camp, and it'd say the target they reached here was just the last one.

Dunno. Hardcore fan of Clannad (both the game and the anime) here, and I loved Angel Beats.

Have yet to listen to the podcast- guess I'll do that in the next day or so.

Hi long time listener. Just wanted to say this was a really good podcast for the first time it wasn't an echo chamber of moe hate that consisted of Zac and Justin; makes for bad podcasting when there isn't an opposing opinion.

As another old anime fan I agree with Greg's position especially when he mentions heart/effort in creating the 'moe shows'. Plotless shows can be potentially bad but only if you are looking for a show driven by narrative. K-On/Lucky Star are character driven shows ala sitcoms and the appeal is the humor or (cute) character interactions. Though there isn't an overarching story but once the characters are established to the viewer they could be inserted into any kind of story.

With so many shows with poor/mediocre story, I can at least enjoy the characters as it makes the watch more bare-able. It is also fun to see them try to mix up character tropes to try and create a fresh take on an old archetype.

egoist wrote:

neocloud9 wrote:

I'm loving all this praise Angel Beats is getting... Gawd, I hope that gets licensed soon.

Yeah, Angel Beats! is great. Most probably didn't approach it because they think it's like other Key shows. I won't say it truly applies, but in my opinion most of the hate it's gotten on the Internet was due to Clannad's hardcore fans.

Well, coming from someone who disliked both Clannad (first season) and Angel Beats, they do share a common complaint from me -- In AB, after it turns out that there isn't an antagonist, it loses all reason for living. In Clannad, after spoiler[ Fuuko "disappears" or dies ], the show doesn't know what to do with itself anymore. Not to mention that the first season plays russian roulette with itself and loses by adding the last episode into the show.

SonicRenegade84 wrote:

egoist wrote:

neocloud9 wrote:

I'm loving all this praise Angel Beats is getting... Gawd, I hope that gets licensed soon.

Yeah, Angel Beats! is great. Most probably didn't approach it because they think it's like other Key shows. I won't say it truly applies, but in my opinion most of the hate it's gotten on the Internet was due to Clannad's hardcore fans.

Well, coming from someone who disliked both Clannad (first season) and Angel Beats, they do share a common complaint from me -- After the main conflict is solved, there's no reason for the show to go on, but it does anyway.

Are you referring to the end of the first season as the "main conflict"? If so, I can see what you mean due to how they moved around and combined routes from the game: the first season is basically Fuko, Kotomi, and Nagisa's routes (with changes to add Nagisa in and remove some very small romantic parts near the end of each) while After Story is Yukine and the Sunoharas' routes and then, well, After Story. Ryou/Kyou and Tomoyo's routes can't be in the anime because they centered around dating Tomoya (so they were adapted as OVAs, which... weren't that good, which is disappointing because Tomoyo's route was one of my favorites), and Kappei's route is taken out entirely (probably due to how it wouldn't fit well and how it played with Ryou's character).

While the path you take to reach Nagisa's route in the game does include parts of the other character's stories, there's nothing between it and After Story (which is a separate part of the game unlocked after playing every main route) like there is in the anime.

Now that I reread though, you said that you were talking about the first season of Clannad... were you referring to the way they split up the 3 routes there? Not really sure what to say about that.

...I didn't mean to write that much. Confused

xBTAx wrote:

SonicRenegade84 wrote:

egoist wrote:

neocloud9 wrote:

I'm loving all this praise Angel Beats is getting... Gawd, I hope that gets licensed soon.

Yeah, Angel Beats! is great. Most probably didn't approach it because they think it's like other Key shows. I won't say it truly applies, but in my opinion most of the hate it's gotten on the Internet was due to Clannad's hardcore fans.

Well, coming from someone who disliked both Clannad (first season) and Angel Beats, they do share a common complaint from me -- After the main conflict is solved, there's no reason for the show to go on, but it does anyway.

Are you referring to the end of the first season as the "main conflict"? If so, I can see what you mean due to how they moved around and combined routes from the game: the first season is basically Fuko, Kotomi, and Nagisa's routes (with changes to add Nagisa in and remove some very small romantic parts near the end of each) while After Story is Yukine and the Sunoharas' routes and then, well, After Story. Ryou/Kyou and Tomoyo's routes can't be in the anime because they centered around dating Tomoya (so they were adapted as OVAs, which... weren't that good, which is disappointing because Tomoyo's route was one of my favorites), and Kappei's route is taken out entirely (probably due to how it wouldn't fit well and how it played with Ryou's character).

While the path you take to reach Nagisa's route in the game does include parts of the other character's stories, there's nothing between it and After Story (which is a separate part of the game unlocked after playing every main route) like there is in the anime.

Now that I reread though, you said that you were talking about the first season of Clannad... were you referring to the way they split up the 3 routes there? Not really sure what to say about that.

...I didn't mean to write that much. Confused

I was talking about after Fuuko's arc, they build up Tomoya and Nagisa so much that they finally get together, making me feel like something really interesting is going to happen with the two. Then what happens? "Hey, i'm Tomoya and i'm going out with Kyou" WHAAAAAAAAT?! Unless i'm supposed to understand that they threw that episode in for the lolz, how does this fit in with the main storyline? Are we that faithful to the visual novel that we needed that side story in there?

That was a spinoff OVA, not the last episode.

The King of Harts wrote:

That was a spinoff OVA, not the last episode.

This, but... don't you mean Tomoyo? Kyou was After Story's OVA.

In any case, yeah, that's an OVA that takes place in an alternate world. It's an adaptation of Tomoyo's route, and not a very good one, since they started at a point that's only important because of what happened before it...

Now I want to call the episode "Making a mountain out of a Moe hill"

Eleven pages later and not only do I feel like I really don't know what Moe is, I'm not sure anyone else does either.

It just seems either too vague or poorly understood to be of any use as a term.

Is it one of those chameleon words like 'spiritual'. It means whatever you think it does or whatever you want it to.

From what I thought was just a component of any story now seems to define every story. The tails' wagging the dog.

Moe equals:
young children, teenagers, adults, comedy, tragedy, endearment, unrequited love, innocence, manipulation, belonging, being misunderstood, cuteness, sadness, wearing glasses, farts the alphabet...yada whatever.

Weren't there a couple of cases of women wanting to marry the the Eiffel Tower or a carnival ride.

At best it now seems to me to mean a nicer word for: 'you have a hobby,how nice,'

At worst:'you really need to get a grip.'

I've had moments when I felt emotion in response to a story. How weird is that. I don't have a name for it.

I think I know what the 800lb gorilla in the room is but it scares me.

PS: the Strike Witch girls where teens? What? Eleventeen? Twelveteen?

I'm not Moe. I'm just drawn that way. - Jessica Rabbit

Kaioshin_Sama wrote:

Like how Zac describes it it all feels extremely alien

I think that's to be expected of foreign entertainment.

Cheesecracker wrote:

PS: the Strike Witch girls where teens? What? Eleventeen? Twelveteen?

At the start of the series the youngest, Lucchini, was 12 and the next youngest was Sanya at 13. The rest ranged from 14 to 19.
So, with one exception, teenagers.

Cheesecracker wrote:

Now I want to call the episode "Making a mountain out of a Moe hill"

Eleven pages later and not only do I feel like I really don't know what Moe is, I'm not sure anyone else does either.

It just seems either too vague or poorly understood to be of any use as a term.

Moe is what ever you want it to be, at least within what the terms of what it is at least to me.

That being said, I wonder how many more pages of the same things being said will be done before this thread is locked.

SonicRenegade84 wrote:

I was talking about after Fuuko's arc, they build up Tomoya and Nagisa so much that they finally get together, making me feel like something really interesting is going to happen with the two. Then what happens? "Hey, i'm Tomoya and i'm going out with Kyou" WHAAAAAAAAT?! Unless i'm supposed to understand that they threw that episode in for the lolz, how does this fit in with the main storyline? Are we that faithful to the visual novel that we needed that side story in there?

Are you talking about the Kyou "Another World" episode? If so, both that and the Tomoyo episode are alternate reality episodes that don't share the continuity of the main series.

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