Forum - View topicNEWS: Funimation Enforces Intellectual Property Rights
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Omega13
 Posts: 78 |
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Just to make it clear (not trying to get in on the bashing/counter-bashing/side-bashing/whatever-bashing-it-is-that's-currently-going-on), but R1 is North America. R2 is Japan (and Europe, IIRC). So the meaning of the statement was 'the only way you can possibly justify fansubs is to buy the US release when it's available'. Just trying to straighten things out 
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Andromeda
Posts: 119 Location: Florida |
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EDITED to fix the most embarassing typo since "Stay cool in your own poo[l]".
See, this is part of the reason I sometimes think it'd be nice to start an anime/manga trading group. You know, like "I'll trade you my Sailor Moon season 1 box set for your Witch Hunter Robin box set", actual official copies. Then you could buy very few DVDs and yet see very many series and films. By the way... this comment struck me as odd:
No, actually, it's not. If I draw a picture of Sailor Moon, I don't have to pay ANYBODY just for the ability to draw it - and the copyright on the art piece itself is mine, pretty much (although the trademark is not). It's only illegal if you make a profit off of it, and only possibly worth bothering over if you're selling prints or selling the originals for a lot of money. Drawing Edward Elric and posting your pic online = not illegal. Drawing Edward Elric and trading that drawing for a box of Pocky = probably not illegal, since no money is trading hands, but don't quote me on that. 
Drawing Edward Elric and selling it to a friend or con-goer for $5 = illegal, but it is unlikely to get you sued, since the profit is so small, and you're doing it person-to-person in real life. Drawing Edward Elric and other FMA characters and selling them on eBay on a regular basis = illegal, though if you're not selling them for too much, it's doubtful you'd get sued. Doubtful, but far from impossible. Drawing Edward Elric and selling prints of this drawing = illegal, and there's a quite good chance of you getting sued, I'd say, especially if you're making a lot of money from these prints. The drawing itself isn't illegal; it's making profit from it that is illegal under most trademark law. Also, it's not as touchy an issue as fansubs, because it is an original, derivitive work, not a copy of the original that happens to have translations. As for TV airings being somehow "the same thing" as fansubs(which I saw either stated or implied at least once or twice in here)... no. TV has advertising, which the advertisers pay for, and the station buys rights to air it, and then airs it at certain times and dates. Then maybe someone who owns or buys the license to produce home video or DVD copies will do that, and you'd buy a copy from them so you could watch it any time you wanted. Fansubs, however, can be watched at anytime, and nobody paid for that right. Additionally, a person must own a TV set and usually, they must pay for the TV service (unless it's public access or something) in order to view it. Don't go jumping on me for this comment, either, because I'm just stating a fact, and asking that people not make comparisons that are not accurate.
I'm the kind who will occasionally watch fansubs if it's a rare, sure bet that the series isn't coming over (Sailor Moon Stars), alhtough this is less likely nowadays since some obscure series that I enjoyed watching a couple of episode of in fansub form later got licensed (which makes me pretty happy, actually). Or, I'll watch fansubs at cons or download the first few episodes as a way to sample it... However, if I enjoy it (or enjoyed the manga), I will almost always buy the DVD, or plan on buying it when I can afford it. Such is the case for me with Excel Saga, Azumanga Daioh, Someday's Dreamers, the subbed Sailor Moon box sets, and Fruits Basket. Granted, I'll often wait until it's in the bargain bin (later half of ES, FB, Sailor Moon sets) over at Right Stuf, but I DO eventually buy it. Of course, I have a fondness for DVDs to begin with. Though I admit I'd take more chances on new DVDs if they were $20 or less, or had more episodes, or had some nice extras (like audio commentaries with the actors, or dub bloopers, or music videos, or just... you know, fun or interesting stuff. I'm getting seriously bored with "trailers, clean open and close, and maybe some random screenshots"). Right now, I tend to buy things only if the price is really, really low (Shingu when it went on sale) and/or I read the manga and/or I saw the first episode or two fansubbed (both apply to Azumanga and Fruits Basket for me) and/or I saw it on TV and enjoyed it (Witch Hunter Robin) and/or Bamboo gave a really good review of it and/or if the extras are fantastic (like the Witch Hunter Robin vol. 1 with artbox and cool extras, or the Kodocha volume 1 with artbox and extras, and even then, they were both on sale). *shrug* But, that's just me.
Unless the source is "the creator, who released it directly to the internet for free and has stated that they do not mind fansubbing", then it IS illegal (because you didn't pay the makers/owners for the right, or the added illegality of not paying the licensees). It's whether it cuts into profits that some people worry about.
Not if they don't own the rights to make those, or can't afford to design and produce them, or they simply don't sell, they don't.
No, but it would mean (assuming sales really ARE hurt by fansubs) less anime on TV and less cool DVD releases, and less products as a whole (because people might assume there's no market for it if the sales are really poor), especially for those of us who tend to buy legal releases.
You neglected to mention the fact that whoever is showing it is paying money to the company that licensed the anime for a foreign market, and they're getting money, usually, from advertising. It's because other people are paying for that showing that you get to watch it, not the fact that you're paying for cable, since presumably, Witch Hunter Robin or Evangelion on Adult Swim aren't the only reason you're paying your cable bill. This may somewhat change if cable companies actually DO eventually give us "a la carte" options (meaning, you pay ONLY for the channels you choose), but nonetheless, the money for that SPECIFIC title is paid by the company airing it, or by their sponsors.
I hope this is merely a statement of fact, and not a legal argument. Because the original Japanese station airing it also paid money to air it, and in many cases, to produce it.
Actually, they do. It was determined in US courts, at least, that recording from a TV for PERSONAL use is not illegal, but redistributing it, ESPECIALLY in mass or potentially mass quanitities (the internet, for instance), is. Why? Because airing rights, the right to watch a channel you've already paid for, and distribution rights are all SEPERATE legal rights. If you have the money to license a show and do and put it out for free, hey, that's your choice. But if you didn't buy the license to distribute a foreign translation, you are doing something that is, in the technical sense, illegal.
Nothing. But the TV station paid to air it, and you paid to view the channel. You didn't buy the right to redistribute it to dozens or hundreds or thousands of other people.
Like I said, no it doesn't. Unless it is an ONA (Original Net Anime), it is still, technically, illegal no matter what the source is.
It IS illegal, because the radio station paid the licensor, (usually ASCAP or BMI) for the right to broadcast it; you didn't, you just have the right reciever for it. Also, radio stations still pay money to broadcast, PERIOD (airspace ain't that cheap). And they get money from advertisers... or in the case of sattelite radio, from subscribers.
And pretty much I think you need to brush up on your copyright law before you try to analyze it in public, next time.
Again, the simple act of RECORDING isn't illegal, at least not in the US; it's the redistribution, especially on what could be a large scale (or at least, large comparitively speaking) that is illegal, because the redistribution rights and TV rights are two different things.
It already is. -Andromeda Last edited by Andromeda on Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Cujo117
Posts: 3 |
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The whole point I meant to make was not to battle with copyright laws and other things of the sort. I'm just stating my opinion. Either way the company makes money due to "cool dvd" releases or not. They may pay for advertising but in the long run depending on some companies it is probably equivalent to chump change. Not saying all companies are like that though. Its just my opinion that if you purchase it for your own personal use and end up redistributing it, keep it illegal. If it was broadcasted fair game. Just out of curiousity, if a fansub is being distributed from a neutral country, could the company take it to a type of court under US law or would it be under the neutral country law?
Last edited by Cujo117 on Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10420 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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I believe distribution of fanart, if it isn't parody/satire, even if it's for free (ie on your website) can be considered illegal. The only instances I know of where the copyright and trademark owners have taken offense to fanart have been instances where they've felt that the fanart in question was harmful to the integrity of their property. Typically when it was pornographic, lewd or etc... -t |
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Cujo117
Posts: 3 |
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In some cases that can tend to be true, but if you look at the music industry there have been cases of artists profiting from it. Plus another thing I've wondered is if making Anime Music Videos could technically be illegal. Yes you are giving credit to the show, but do you have the permission to use the footage? Or is it considered original work and legal since it is not being distributed for profit? |
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Dejiko
 Posts: 276 Location: Holland (between Great Britain and Germany) |
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No. it's economics at work. It's not that different when you apply it to another consumer good. Let's say... a car. Sure, you can take it for a spin at the dealer (download a trailer), but driving away without returning it (downloading the whole lot of a series) is generally not accepted. My point: you don't need to steal a car (anime) to know wether or not it will drive well (it will generally suit your tastes). Then again, should you buy the car, and sell it later on, common logic dictates that you get less money in return for a used product. How is this one consumer good different from the other, exept for the fact that you can't DL cars?
Even if they did, this is easily countered by the fact that Japan is one of *the* most expensive countries in the world.
They are, but I was talking about interviews with the Japanese creators, directors and voice actors... people that actually were involved with the production.
You don't know what it is, but the other thing is always better, so no thinking required. Yup, sounds like good reasoning. What I meant is for instance a registration of a performance of the OP or ED singers. Great extra's in my book, and they don't clutter my screen.
I don't know about you, but I take a quality translation by a paid, professional translator over half-guessed signs any day. But then again, you are obviously not intending to ever pay for anime anyway, so I'll stop wasting my energy.
Sometimes, I wonder if people really understand what they are doing... |
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Andromeda
Posts: 119 Location: Florida |
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Actually, in the technical sense, they ARE illegal. It's just that nobody notices enough to care. Coincidentally, using any music licensed or sold (other than in import shops that get their product direct from Japan) in America? VERY RISKY. Both BMI and especially ASCAP, the main music licensing groups in the US, are INSANE about keeping their licenses PRISTINE. And by that, I mean: if you put a CD in the player in a place where you're selling stuff, in some cases, even if one of the things you're selling is the music, and you didn't pay several hundred dollars for that right, ASCAP sues the pants off of you; or if you own a bar where a SINGlE performer performs a song that isn't theirs, or even in some cases was once performed by an ASCAP artist, you can be sued (which is ridiculous, but it's the way it is). And the footage is, unless you are allowed by the creator specifically to use it, also illegal. It's just that since you usually aren't making a profit from AMVs, they don't usually bother suing.
You know, "derivitive work" usually only goes so far. Harry Potter porn is patently illegal because JK Rowling's group of high-paid lawyers are good at arguing that it hurts HP's image. Fanfiction.net will also refuse to host fanfiction for a series/film/book/what have you if the author says they don't want fanfiction written for it (such as Anne Rice), or if the author requires approval for it (like Anne McCaffrey). It's a very thin line. Also, neither the art nor the music is "original", it's the way they're used that's "original", so technicall it isn't an "original work", despite not being distributed for profit. Especially in the eyes of the ever-anal-retentive ASCAP.
That's not what my art teacher told us. So if I'm wrong, I apologize, but that is where I got my information from (she's not a private instructor, either, so she could get sued for telling us stuff like that if she knew it was false), that is EXACTLY what she told us, that the art itself was copyright to whomever drew it, even if it was of someone else's character, but that selling it was a different matter.
Yes. Those would fit under a differnt category if my art teacher was telling the truth (I have no reason to believe she wasn't, but that was five years ago, so some laws may have changed in that time as well), as well as potentially falling under obscenity laws (since as you said, it pretty much only happens when it's sexually explicit, since parody and satire are protected forms of free speech. Although you could argue in court, if you wanted, that "This picture is a parody" Though I'm not sure you'd win, if it was in the US. Our court system tends to not like teh pr0n very much).
If I made an error there, I apologize, but I did have what I considered a reliable source for that.
-Andromeda |
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SailorPiro
Posts: 4 |
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Also, in Japan, you are required by law to pay a fee to NHK, a public broadcaster. |
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Steroid
 Posts: 329 Location: At home, where all good hikikomori should be |
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Just as regards translation: for me this is an issue of good faith more than quality. The translator may be paid, and professional, but often I have reason to doubt whether they are translating to their full ability. By that I mean that in some anime there is sex, or violence, or cultural nuances; at which some people are shocked, or are offended, or are repulsed, or do not understand (and may not want to be challenged by). But those elements are important to me both for their own sake, and because I *want* to see such people shocked and offended and confused. And if a professional translator chooses them over me, I consider it a slap in the face. But I have yet to see a fansubber who did not make a bona fide effort to be accurate in translation regardless of the material. Even if they have failures, I usually know enough Japanese to carry me through. But when I see the professionals trying to play me for a fool or a sheep while the fansubbers treat me like a fellow conspirator in a rebellion against norms, it's not hard to choose which method I prefer. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Except that fansubber is still stealing from the pockets of the creators. Of course, given your other tinfoil hat crew commentary I guess it comes as no surprise that's what you go for.
Not to mention I carefully compare every anime I purchase with dubs and subs and don't see half the crap you claim to see so I seriously doubt whether you are even capable of viewing things remotely objective enough anyways. Especially considering your post history anyways. |
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TheShadow99
Posts: 32 |
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How about the fact that the DVD is in the same condition compeltely as when I bought it? But since you brought it up... If this is a used car I'm buying then my uncle whose an auto mechanic will be looking at it before i buy it. They allow you to do that sort of thing you know... In fact that analogue works pretty well for my point, since fansubbers dont' charge anythign and neither does he for this extra service not rendered by the dealership...
So? In the end somehow I have a feelign they still have more disposable income... Heck from those I've talked to from Japan, they normally do!
I'd rather actually buy that seperately if I wnated such a thing... In fact I have since I'm a big J-music fan...
Does that include the wife of a friend of mine whose Chinese, but speaks both english and Japanese fluently? She isn't a 'professional', but frnakly I'd take her translation just as much as anyone elses... Heck probably more so... She was raised with all three languages and so is a native speaker of all three... Just because someone is 'professional' doens't mean they are more valid...
Gee than these hundred odd DVD's and dozens of VHS tapes I own means nothign huh? I said I buy what I like... I'm just nto about to buy blind and waste my hard earned money... fansubs often prove the only way I know if it realy is worth it at all...
That's your opinion and your entitled to it... |
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Deacon Blues
Posts: 383 Location: Albuquerque, NM |
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I'm sorry, but are you an idiot? Fansubbers have absolutely NO responsibility WHATSOEVER to continue bringing material to the fans. Rude or not its illegal nontheless and it sure as hell doesn't have to be done. If that is true, then Cellphone^2 which released Ms igLoo Episode 1 shouldn't have dispanded due to internal staff issues in order to release all three episodes of the 6 part OVA that have come out. Sorry, they still disbanded irregardless of the fact. |
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halo
Posts: 356 |
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In a way I disagree. The fansubbers should continue to bring anime to the fans. But then again I don't consider those people who sit there and demand they get every episode for free to really be fans. And as for MS Igloo, someone hand me a translation and I'll do the rest... unless Bandai has some plan to release it in English (not likely.) |
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Yashouzoid
 Posts: 411 |
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Provided that they take them off after the series are licensed, and that they don't profit off of them, I think fansubs are okay. Although, while I don't think any fansubber should profit off of it, I endorse fansubs for shows such as, say, One Piece, which has no proper release in America and was butchered horribly. |
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jezplainme
Posts: 1 |
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Wow. Everyone is pretty passionate, usually towards one side or another.
I would say I straddle the fence, don't really like much of the animes that are dubbed. I don't have much money leftover after the bills as well, and I do depend on fansubs to inform me as to whether if an anime will be to my liking. I don't think anyone mentioned this, but would it be possible for a fansub group to sub an episode and post it up for a limited time release. Let's take Solty Rei for example. It's in the process of being licensed, but won't be finished in japan for another 3-4 months. Then, it's probably another year or so until the North American release. By that time, I would have already purchased the release from Japan that supports Region 1. In the end, I support anime and the animators who started the whole thing, but the domestic distributors don't get anything. There's an anime I am waiting for, usually in a complete format. I hate buying anime in separate cases, since it clogs spaces and can get lost. The anime is Matantei Loki or Mythical Detective Loki. I have yet to find it in complete form, and so far, I believe only the first volume has been released in North America. Animenfo is a great site I use to gather information about newly released anime as well as peer reviews on anime, new and old. I've found some treasures through their recommendations. However, there are also many top recommended anime that I could not stand. Similarly, I have enjoyed plenty of anime that have not rated very well. The rights to Basilisk is owned by Funimation. Prior to the first 5 episodes, I enjoyed the show very much. The last 3 or so episodes that did get fansubbed, episodes 17-19 I believe, were so dark, you could hard see anything a good amount of time. It is instances like these that can ruin an anime. How do I know if an anime will not become utter pure crap because the studio used up most of it's allocated budget within the first half of the show. I would be utterly disappointed and would be very leery of whoever put out the series... namely Gonzo and Funimation. If the effect continued, I would lost interest in anime itself. 10-15 years ago, I loved anime, couldn't get enough of it. Even the crap that was released, I could sit through it. 5 years ago, I was completely out of anime because I couldn't find anything decent. A year ago, I was reintroduced back into the anime scene through naruto. Through fansubs, I have become an avid follower of anime. I buy what I can. The anime I've deemed most enjoyable, I feel I have a need to have them. However, keep something waiting too long, and the flame will die. There's a series I can't wait for, Top no warae 2 (Gunbuster 2). Not sure anyone will license that here, but it is only through fansubs that I have come across many titles. It is also through fansubs that many 'struggling' studios and aniimators can continue with their work a little longer, as there are some out there who will go ahead and import. To make a long story short. I don't condone what SHS did. It's not right to sub or release something that is already in existence for purchase. As someone who is planning to get into the entertainment field, I know I would definitely be pissed if I saw a bootlegged copy of my work floating around on the streets a few days after it was released. Fansubs are a double edged sword. They help in informing the anime community but hurt the bottom line of the companies putting the material out. However, they're not out to make a buck for themselves. All in all though, I think it's largely because of the internet and fansub groups that anime has become as big as it is today, and as a result, we seem to be seeing more releases every year. I think fansubbing groups are a necessary good, but only if they stay within a certain boundary. However, like all good things, it can also be turned into an evil. |
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