Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! - manga.exe
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GracieLizzy
 Posts: 551 Location: Sunderland, England, UK |
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Well I would have to admit to most people a Mackem translation and a Geordie translation would sound pretty similar... hmm. Usagi: Oh no, I'm late for school. Mama why didn't you wake me? to Usagi: Ah christ, ave got to geet gannin to schule, Mam why didvin you wake iz up? ....I suppose? |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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I believe such a class of people consists of everyone to whom those two terms do not apply. |
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Anymouse
 Posts: 685 |
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I am glad to have just learned who the Geordie people are. English history is always a fun thing to learn about.
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GracieLizzy
Posts: 551 Location: Sunderland, England, UK |
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Oh I dunno, lots of people from 'Boro can tell the difference. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Draneor
 Posts: 355 |
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Only for certain names. For example, there's Jonathan (legal/formal), John (informal/normal), and Johnie/Jonny (diminutive)/nickname). My name follows that pattern (but isn't that). My legal name is the formal version, my current name is the normal one, and my child name was the diminutive. Only people that knew me as a child get to call me by the diminutive (otherwise, it's kind of insulting). Using my legal name is kind of off-putting since I don't got by it. But I don't know how closely it would match honorifics and, in any case, there aren't multiple forms for Japanese names in English. |
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AilisKnil
Posts: 87 |
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I'm a little late to the party here, but it seems the topic of honorifics is still being beaten to death in this thread.
The thing about supporting the inclusion of honorifics because they retain some deeper meaning about character relationships is that the entirety of the Japanese language does this. It's not about what you put at the end of someone's name, it's about every little way you speak to them. With so many degrees of formal/informal speech, it's literally impossible to convey all of the nuances that come with the language when you translate it. People just seem to like retaining honorifics because they're simple and self-contained, but where do we draw the line here? I used to be a huge proponent of retaining honorifics before I became familiar with the language because I did feel like I was missing out on something when they weren't there. But the thing that people have to accept about Japanese to English translations is that you DO miss out on a lot of things more important than honorifics because very few things translate directly. If you don't want to miss out on these things, learn Japanese and read Japanese manga. The only problem with leaving honorifics out in certain works is that many translators try to affix English words to them (ie. "Mr." for -san or "little" for -chan). It's understandable that translating honorifics has proven to be so difficult, but the ideal translation should have no words that something written initially in English would not. |
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Chagen46
 Posts: 4377 |
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I have to disagree with this; of course, all translations lose something, but the mark of a good translation is figuring out a way to get that nuance back in. The whole "welp, you'll lose stuff anyway" attitude seems very defeatist to me. |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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maaya
Posts: 976 |
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As others have said, diminutives exist in english (Rebecca -> Becky, Becca, Victoria -> Vicky), but the way they're created makes it a bit difficult to apply that to japanese names (apart from exceptions like Mikihiro -> Mikky) ... but in japanese -chan is often attached to a shortened form of the name anyway. So there you get a diminutive nickname without needing the suffix. Aki is too short, but 3 or 4 syllable names are very often shortened to 2 syllables before adding -chan, because else they become too long. F.ex., Mikihiro will most definitely be Miki-chan, or Ayumi will often be Ayu-chan. Or Akiko -> Aki-chan
In Japanese you can and do, easily and often, drop the pronoun completely. The respect etc. is much more conveyed through the verb forms and the vocabulary (+ your attitude).
Pretty sure the writers often don't even realize these things. They write characters based on (the only) behavior they know ... or on stereotypes. |
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Juno016
 Posts: 2381 |
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The problem with trying is that... when something is impossible, it is impossible. Of course, the point is trying, so I don't think anyone is saying to just give up... but when you have something said in one culture that you have to try and translate to another culture, you also need to convert years upon years of experience in a specific societal environment, as well as somehow overwrite the conception of the audience on the thing being translated... with just words. Enough words that fit the screen/word-bubble/page count. That is the ultimate goal of making an accurate translation. And sometimes... it's impossible. "Mister" is often a parallel word for "-san" because the situations where you would use both of them usually overlap, but there are also cases where the context of a scene specifically relies on the usage of "-san" and trying to replace that with "mister" just wouldn't work because of Western culture. That's one reason we have translation notes, but in the meantime, something needs to go into that scene/word-bubble. And that's the point where one usually gives up and either: 1) inserts a random "-san" into the scene where it never existed before, causing possible confusion in the reader, or... 2) replaces the context with something completely different so that it flows well, even though it sacrifices the original context. Particular cases where a translation does #2 (for any kind of context, not just with the usage of "-san") and then the story ends up returning to that context as a major part of the plot can be particularly cruel... but the translator can't predict that, so it's sometimes just bad luck. On the other hand, this kind of thing can be avoided by using #1. But then you have the possibility of a slew of other problems. Translating is not just a matter of changing one language into another language. There are no actual rules to a perfect translation. And so, I agree that if you want the most accurate translations that don't risk misconceptions caused by the translations (and you own perceptions of those translations), the only way to get past that is to learn Japanese culture and language as fluently as possible. Otherwise, you just have to trust the translator and, on occasion, luck. :/ |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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Which has sorta been my entire point. If you have the entire work (such as a standalone novel, or a movie, or whatever), then you can work the translation from the beginning to account for these sorts of things. But one of the major things that happens all the goddamn time in anime is people stumbling over changes in honorifics, and it just goddamn doesn't work in English because culturally we just don't have that particular hangup! It doesn't matter that its not particularly realistic to Japanese society in general, but its a very standard trope in anime. |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14754 |
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If people read that without knowing better, they'd think someone's about to throw the f-bomb out of nowhere. 
Anime does tend to have sometimes an unhealthy compulsion of repeating people's names (and thus the use for honorifics).
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Moonsaber
 Posts: 343 Location: USA |
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I don't know what has been said about the streaming dubs, but Netflx has a very respectable amount of Dubbed anime streamed, including, I believe, all of Inu-Yasha and Sgt Frog. Not sure what this new service is thinking, but they are not offering anything competitive or new.
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emmapeel
Posts: 15 |
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For one thing, I appreciate the gender-neutrality of honorifics. A translation that adds gender-specificity adds a new dimension which can be distracting and/or unnatural. For example, maybe it's because I'm a woman but I have an acute awareness of the different ways the terms "Miss" "Mrs" and "Ms" are loaded, and all can be problematic for "-san."
On the other side of it, if a male is "-kun" or "-chan" then "sweetie" "babe," or "honey" seems feminizing, and potentially demeaning as a replacement. "Junior" or "little" can add other connotations than what "-kun" or "-chan" imply. I'm against dumbing anything down, but even if you think simplicity is important, I would argue that honorifics are simpler than any attempted english equivalents, which to my mind just add layers of unintended complexity. |
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