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mdreura



Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:22 am Reply with quote
LUNI_TUNZ wrote:
Does a male saying "misogyny is bad", mean less because they're male?


Does anybody really need to explain why female perspectives on misogyny are more meaningful? Of course.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5086

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:31 am Reply with quote
mdreura wrote:
LUNI_TUNZ wrote:
Does a male saying "misogyny is bad", mean less because they're male?


Does anybody really need to explain why female perspectives on misogyny are more meaningful? Of course.


And? You've been given one, which both Hitokiri and I pretty much are in full agreement with.

I don't see the issue.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:43 am Reply with quote
So.. has anyone provided some statistics on how many moe watchers are raging misogynists? And for fairness sake, how many fujoshi who are raging misandrists? I would surely hope people haven't spend the last 5 pages talking about this subject on a purely "he said, she said" basis.
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poonk



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 1417
Location: In the Library with Philip

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:54 am Reply with quote
mdreura wrote:
LUNI_TUNZ wrote:
Does a male saying "misogyny is bad", mean less because they're male?


Does anybody really need to explain why female perspectives on misogyny are more meaningful? Of course.
Though I understand and appreciated your intent, I (as a female-type-person) do especially appreciate the boys who call out the misogynists. I'm a big proponent of social shaming when it comes to truly shame-worthy behavior (like misogyny, racism, nationalism, etc.). No mercy for the A-holes, I guess?

Last edited by poonk on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wrathful



Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:55 am Reply with quote
For the longest time, I thought some of people with strong opinions are very passive-aggressive and I still think that is the case. Some people I've seen doesn't even know what they are talking about yet accuses moe fans of being misogynists just because of few vocal moe fans and keeps on pushing their own agenda just because they can.

So what if they are misogynists? If you just leave them alone, they will enjoy their own hobbies. So what gives the moral crusaders the privileges to act condescending and treat the medium that accordingly. Just get off that soapbox.
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mdreura



Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:00 am Reply with quote
poonk wrote:
Though I understand and appreciated your intent, I (as a female-type-person) do especially appreciate the boys who call out the misogynists. I'm a big proponent of social shaming when it comes to truly shame-worthy behavior (like misogyny, racism, etc.). No mercy for the A-holes, I guess?


We boys can call eachother names all day. It's like a hobby for us. What I'm more interested in is: Do you agree? Do you think moe fans are raging misogynists, as at least one person has said tonight? Do you think moe fans are shame-worthy?
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poonk



Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 1417
Location: In the Library with Philip

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:19 am Reply with quote
mdreura wrote:
poonk wrote:
Though I understand and appreciated your intent, I (as a female-type-person) do especially appreciate the boys who call out the misogynists. I'm a big proponent of social shaming when it comes to truly shame-worthy behavior (like misogyny, racism, etc.). No mercy for the A-holes, I guess?


We boys can call eachother names all day. It's like a hobby for us. What I'm more interested in is: Do you agree? Do you think moe fans are raging misogynists, as at least one person has said tonight? Do you think moe fans are shame-worthy?
Do I believe all moe fans are misogynists? No. I've seen too much evidence to the contrary. Do I wish the silent majority stood up to the vocal minority that are? Yes, yes I do. Believe me, as a fujoshi I know all about the issues a fandom may have with its vocal minority (though to be fair, I think our vocal minority is more just plain obnoxious than discriminatory, but still...).

Last edited by poonk on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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Draneor



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:51 am Reply with quote
mdreura wrote:
Do you think moe fans are raging misogynists, as at least one person has said tonight? Do you think moe fans are shame-worthy?

Read this and tell me that's not misogyny. That might be the most extreme example posted in this thread, but there are others too. I filter that kind of person out of my life. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that everyone can filter that kind of person away.

HitokiriShadow wrote:
I'm not convinced that the moe fanbase is that much more so than the rest of it, but it may be more obvious and its not a huge stretch to assume it's at least slightly more misogynist based on various things that we've discussed in this thread . I don't think anyone has any actual hard data we can work with on this, so we're stuck with varying personal experiences and anecdotal information.

Yeah this. Also, as you said, the internet is self-segregating. I don't frequently visit 4-chan or Reddit for example (as my limited experience with them indicates they are infested with not-so-nice-people on many issues). Carefully choosing friends is another. But not everyone has that luxury. Some people pick up cyber stalkers that harass a person from website to website. Those harassed are often female or gay. My experience is limited because, in many ways, I'm immune from seeing it.

TitanXL wrote:
And for fairness sake, how many fujoshi who are raging misandrists?

Yes, let's mention a non-existent problem and pretend it's equivalent.
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musouka



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 423

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:03 am Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
So.. has anyone provided some statistics on how many moe watchers are raging misogynists? And for fairness sake, how many fujoshi who are raging misandrists? I would surely hope people haven't spend the last 5 pages talking about this subject on a purely "he said, she said" basis.


No, but as someone that consumes m/m media, I have to be aware of the fact that it can be damaging to actual homosexual people. This doesn't mean I have to give up something I love completely, it means I have to be sensitive to other people it may affect, listen to discussions about that subject with an open mind, and be willing to self-reflect about my own habits frequently.

Another frequent topic of conversation in the female-oriented m/m side of fandom is misogyny in our own ranks, and how to react to/avoid it. No one likes to be called misogynistic (including me!), but even being female doesn't exclude me from being labeled that way. The only thing that can exclude me from that are my own actions and how I react to the actions of others.

I think it's a good point when people bring up the fact that moe fans probably aren't any more misogynistic as a whole than fandom itself, but I do think you are somewhat less likely to get strong dissent from within their ranks than other portions of fandom when sexist language begins to pop up. (Obviously, this is a generalization, as many moe fans in this thread were outraged at the ridiculous anti-feminist screed, which was wonderful to see.)
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Timeenforceranubis



Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 170

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:06 am Reply with quote
musouka wrote:
Isn't it possible that misogyny is part of the reason for the lack of social empathy? Yes, calling people losers doesn't help, but the issue is a lot more widespread than you're making it sound. I do understand that you want to talk about people that aren't sexist jerks but still turn to moe for emotional support. My problem is when the discussion shifts to "we're not ALL like that", then it usually becomes an issue of "so I don't have to feel responsible for partaking in a subculture that is, in many ways, virulently anti-women".

Or, if I don't hold "good" people responsible for the company they choose to keep, then they have absolutely no reason to back me up when I once again get sucked into the super fun round of "I love Key girls because they're not sluts, unlike real women!", a conversation I've had way too many times to count for my comfort.


I think it's the other way around, actually. People are painted as misogynists because there's a lack of social empathy for their situation (No girlfriend, moe as a coping mechanism). Among the group of people in that situation, misogynists exist, but the effort to force this misogyny conversation where the conversation was never about misogyny really speaks to the lack of social empathy toward this group of people.

musouka wrote:
So, are you instead saying that the misogynistic element is a minority?


I'm saying that they are a subset of a larger group and that focusing on them in particular is reductive. It doesn't matter if they're a majority or minority. The focus on one subset within a larger set of people is reductive.

musouka wrote:
Which is exactly my point. Instead of outside people talking about misogyny and moe fans, moe fans should be talking about this. Otherwise it becomes an "important conversation" that no one ever has.


The discussion I'm trying to have is also very important, as it taps into subjects such as how social pressures affect people, how love and lack of love affect people, and how society devalues people based on arbitrary criteria. Nobody seems to want to have that discussion, though. Everyone seems to want to have a discussion that basically amounts to "Yes, misogyny is bad and misogynists need to be called out," which I agree with. My gripe is that it's an easy discussion to have, yet has usurped the space in which I was hoping to have a more difficult one.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5086

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:15 am Reply with quote
BTW SWIMMING ANIME ANNOUNCED

Don't mind me just laughing hilariously forever.
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musouka



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 423

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:19 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
BTW SWIMMING ANIME ANNOUNCED

Don't mind me just laughing hilariously forever.


On the one hand, I'm sad it's quite a step down from the commercial, animation-wise. If someone hadn't told me KyoAni was behind it, I certainly wouldn't have assumed that was the case.

On the other, [expletive] SWIMMING ANIME AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
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Draneor



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:20 am Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
BTW SWIMMING ANIME ANNOUNCED

Don't mind me just laughing hilariously forever.

The orange-haired guy seems kind of adorable already from the PV. I'm very interested to see what KyoAni can do with this.

Timeenforceranubis wrote:
Among the group of people in that situation, misogynists exist, but the effort to force this misogyny conversation where the conversation was never about misogyny really speaks to the lack of social empathy toward this group of people.

Open question: why are you ignoring that some of us, like myself, Fencedude, HitokiriShadow, etc, are moe fans? It's entirely possible to like some of the same anime you do, experience the same social forces, and yet disagree with you. Also, it was certain comments in this thread that forced the conversation--not ours and others' reaction to them.
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RogerSterling



Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 69

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:07 pm Reply with quote
poonk wrote:

Though I understand and appreciated your intent, I (as a female-type-person) do especially appreciate the boys who call out the misogynists. I'm a big proponent of social shaming when it comes to truly shame-worthy behavior (like misogyny, racism, nationalism, etc.). No mercy for the A-holes, I guess?


YOU (spotlight on POONK)- You are what sucks about the Anime community in English forums. Yeah - You.

Observe kids as I demonstrate:

You come off as this "Open Minded" person who wants everyone to get along & we all need to be fair & equal (or am I wrong?)...YET, You Cheer on "social shaming" for people YOU feel are not-so-nice-people? Sorry sweetie but in the battlefield of ideas - that doesn't make you "correct" Just, Right, or even 'cool'....unless we play by YOUR Rules?

SCREW YOUR "Social Shaming"- You are a HATER. You're NO better than the Macho Guys you claim to be better than. You made ZERO attempts to be "diplomatic" in the above comment. Zac for all the jazz I've given him at least is diplomatic (or often trys to be).

I am "openly" incendiary and make comments to promote 'colorful debate'- I present my POV and WELCOME dissent - I practically beg for challenging opinions - YOU act like the games already over and we just have to agree with you or be "Shamed"

Sorry Babe - America is rapidly growing TIRED of "Political Correctness"- No more 'word games', no more "FREE Rides", No more 'Minced Feelings' - Common Sense people are SICK of this 'Thought Experiment' - cause we're wise. You control the Language then control thought (and by Extension Behavior)...and if that doesn't work- You make "Legislation" to ENFORCE & control Behavior (Gotta love Gov huh sweetie?).

Sorry Your Opinion is CRAP! Men will be men & Women will be whatever they want to be (at any given moment) - why do I say that? cause who am I to know the mind of women (right?).

Go sling that Hater-aid somewhere else Honey-pie, Go find some sissy Emo boys to pick on & emasculate (takes two to tango, they'll welcome you). Because I "Cheer On" the 'Common Sense' verbal lashing of Politically Correct Fools like yourself - Yes....Yes I do.

You cheer on the Shaming of Others....what's next an Inquasition? You truly are a backward individual - You social experiments are at an END Princess. The French Revolution is over & You Lost...AGAIN.

YOU are the type "character" I was born Play with (or debate if you wanna be civilized). See ya on the battlefields of Ideas Chica!

*******************

And to think I only came back to share one of the COOLEST women in Japan! I stumbled on this & this woman fascinates me! A Host club for Girls! I was so pleased that this woman found a Male Moe Cafe!! Let us bask in the joy of this woman's adventure - She has ZERO Delusions about what she likes & never apologizes for not being a Slave to Social Norms (The Herd)

It's called "Rent-a-Boyfriend" (really)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cllO4KcdwLc

God Bless Japan! - NO Political Correctness ALLOWED!! in fact it's You might be SHAMED if you're too "Liberal" - Yes!! YES!! (did I sound like Poonk for a sec there?)
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RogerSterling



Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 69

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:19 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
BTW SWIMMING ANIME ANNOUNCED

Don't mind me just laughing hilariously forever.


So what....if it brings some "Hotter" chicks into liking Anime fine. You could have the Gayest or oiled up what-ever piece of Beefcake (whatever girls like) known to man in Anime - I do not care.

Bring the Ladies in...Hook 'em w/ this & then maybe they stay for 'Highschool of the dead' or maybe "A certain magical index"...if Sex Sells I'd assume women would as easily sold if you market it correctly.

I'll tell you a perfect a Perfect example: "The Vampire Diaries" (on TV). EVERYONE is Hot on that show. Seriously, I'd bang every chick on that show (except April) -and the dudes all look like "Ken Dolls" & hair models. If I had Mystiques power of "Shape-shifting" I'd look like one of these dudes.

Thats the next stage of the Harem Anime - Multi-Harem. tons of Guys & tons of Girls - everyone watches & everyone screws....except Poonk who is 'socially shaming' others
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