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Most Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem


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Tris8



Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 2113
Location: Where the rain is.

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:41 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga, please add spoiler tags to the spoilerific things you discuss in Group D.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:03 pm Reply with quote
I'm honestly not sure what to tag... Pretty much all that stuff is common knowledge...
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Baka RangerBaka Ranger


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:23 pm Reply with quote
Minigame results.

So, One-Eye has correctly picked every single one of our final eight (well, eight out of nine since there was one tie), and only missed three in the previous round. As the point difference stands right now, that guarantees at least fourth place, only possibly losing to Olliff, marie, and whitehairgirls. And sad to say, whg, but you probably don't have a shot to pull that off.
My chart says that Rosebrook and farichada might have a chance to land up to second place spots, but the margins for that are pretty tight, so I don't know if it is actually possible.
Vaisaga nominally has the possibility of coming in 3rd, but mainly because of darkhorse picks and the flaw in the algorithm that compares scores individually.

Both matches in group C were fairly close to the minigame predictions. D-21 had the same winner, although Simon didn't do nearly so well as expected, which bodes poorly for him this round. Saber, by comparison, was about dead on for the three-way face off that was D-22, but that's partly because Sailor Moon was expected to do much better. Had that match been a standard match with Tsume, her performance she would have underperformed by about the same degree as Simon had in D-21.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 4917
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:41 pm Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
Vaisaga nominally has the possibility of coming in 3rd, but mainly because of darkhorse picks and the flaw in the algorithm that compares scores individually.


Really? How does that work?

Well I'm not particularly optimistic. Shouldn't be long until my pick to win gets eliminated.
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Beltane70



Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 9:47 pm Reply with quote
At least I'm getting further and further away from last place in the minigame! Who knows, maybe one day I might even win one of these!
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rheiders



Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 954
Location: Colorful Colorado :)

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:01 pm Reply with quote
Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu
I have a bit of time, and I know both Tutu and 12K very well, so I think I'll look for some video clips that might help people.

To get an idea of where Fakir was at the beginning, here is an official stream of episode 5. I recommend watching from 8:10 to about 13:40. If you have the time, I also recommending skimming through episode 9, especially 5:05 and 9:40. You could also forgo that second one entirely and just watch all of episode 10. This is the best example, but I don't necessarily expect people to watch a whole episode so I thought I'd provide a couple alternatives...

There are several important stages to Fakir's development, but I'll focus on the beginning of the series and the end so I don't lose my sanity xD I think this is the best scene to illustrate how far Fakir has come by the end of the series. Mild spoilers for late in the series; this is the pas de deux scene from episode 25. If you watch nothing else, watch this video. It is also warm and fuzzy and full of feels :3

Unless it looks like he won't win, I'll save my best arguments for the next round. The same goes for Youko. Smile

Group B Final
Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
I love Chihiro and I'm very proud of her for making it this far, but the more I think about Scar the more I realize just how great a contestant he is. I actually think he might be able to stand up to Fakir and Youko and if the people I think will go on do, next week's choice will be pretty difficult for me.

Group C Final
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
Hikaru going on might have made this difficult (though I still would have gone with Youko in the end, probably), but Kenshin's improvement just doesn't strike me as particularly noteworthy in the grand scheme of things. I like him and all, and that arc was my second-favorite in the manga, but something about it just doesn't give me any strong feelings toward him as a character...

Meanwhile, Youko is amazing. I recommend watching episodes 1, 7, and 39 in their entirety. If you're not feeling that ambitious, just skim through one of the earlier episodes (1 and 7 both include particularly dark moments for her character), and then watch from about the 3 minute mark to about the 7 minute mark in episode 39. Episode 39, from her confrontation with the palace guard to her First Edict, is her proudest moment by far.

Her appearance in episodes 1 and 39 really says it all, so here's the before and after:



Group D Final
Simon, Gurren Lagann
What classicalzawa said. I like that part of his improvement is to realize that he's not cut out for leading. I might actually agree with people saying he regresses if he didn't realize that, because it would suggest that he developed a stupid and immature "manly" arrogance (a big part of Kamina's problem), but there are more ways to lead a good, worthy life than by leading others.


Last edited by rheiders on Mon May 13, 2013 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 4917
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:26 pm Reply with quote
rheiders wrote:
Group D Final
Simon, Gurren Lagann
What classicalzawa said. I like that part of his improvement is to realize that he's not cut out for leading. I might actually agree with people saying he regresses if he didn't realize that, because it would suggest that he developed a stupid and immature "manly" arrogance (a big part of Kamina's problem), but there are more ways to lead a good, worthy life than by leading others.


Is that how it happened? From what I recall Simon was just all "Gotta go into space to save my girl. Hold down the fort while I'm gone."

At any rate, your points a bit invalid because he was never the sort of person who'd cling to leadership out of some sense of manliness. When talking about improvement you say "He goes from point A to point B." I don't think saying "At least he didn't go to point C!" is a part of that.

The actual regression that does take place is thus: tries to immitate Kamina -> decides to be himself -> immitates Kamina. Also he starts off all withdrawn and anti social and in the end he becomes spoiler[a complete loner hobo.]

It's not all that noteworthy that he gives up leadership since he wasn't all that interested in it in the first place. Definitely doesn't even come close to how hard it was for Saber to relinquish her leadership role.
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Olliff



Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 526

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:18 am Reply with quote
Wow, this is a very interesting final four for both my minigame and based on their merits. I am kind of put in a tough position in the minigame. I can't miss a single remaining pick to win.

Group B and Group D will be the matches to watch. While other low odd probabilities exist, I am fairly certain that OneEye, marie-antoinette, and myself will top 3. This round will determine if I beat marie-antoinette and the next round will decide if OneEye will win. For those curious, these predictions are based on data found within Dorcas_Aurelia's Score Comparison spreadsheet. I don't put much stock in farichada's numbers, but you can look at other data points for valuable prediction information. Farichada's number are correct in principle, but the numbers themselves that she is using are flawed. Dorcas_Aurelia would have to use a neural network/ decision tree to determine to best score between people for each scenario. I believe he has already noted this, and I don't blame him because the work required would be substantial.
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farichada



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 286
Location: Stevens Point, WI

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:27 am Reply with quote
Olliff wrote:
. I don't put much stock in farichada's numbers, but you can look at other data points for valuable prediction information. Farichada's number are correct in principle, but the numbers themselves that she is using are flawed. Dorcas_Aurelia would have to use a neural network/ decision tree to determine to best score between people for each scenario. I believe he has already noted this, and I don't blame him because the work required would be substantial.


I already explained these drawbacks, and instead of saying nebulous things like you can look at other data points for valuable prediction information, actually explain your method. By the way, I am pretty sure your prediction is somewhat right, but you have the luxury of actually having a bracket that has someone not eliminated for the winner, and I'm flying blind. However, I believe you probably have Fakir or Youko selected as the winner. I also don't understand what you mean by a decision tree, you just mean conditional logic or something like a decision engine?
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 11259
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:13 pm Reply with quote
Since I have some time to kill at work, guess I'll finally get around to voting.

Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu
vs.
Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop

I've been trying to push Daikichi out for the last two rounds, and now he's faced against one of the tournament's two strongest, so it should be no mystery that I'm voting for Fakir.
There's a reason why he Daikichi had any supporting comments so far; the supposed uniqueness of his growth into being a parent just doesn't hold up against a character who does one of the most dramatic and yet credible turn-arounds of any character in anime. Even if he'd just gone from being a villain-seeming jerk to the heroine's most resolute supporter, he'd be worthy of a Final Four appearance, but he has more than that in his favor. I'll go into more detail about that the next two rounds, since it doesn't seem like he'll have any challenge here.

Group B Final
Chihiro, Spirited Away
vs.
Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat!
vs.
Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

While I don't see her winning this match-up, I still think Chihiro is being underrated here as an option. Scar's turn-around is more dramatic, but that was at least partly about him just accepting that there was a different way to help his people. Chihiro had a pretty significant attitude change, too, as well as maturing and becoming more confident.

Group C Final
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

Youko, no question. Kenshin essentially completely reformed himself, but he's up against an opponent who did the same (albeit from a different starting point) and then went further. The pics posted by rheiders do a very nice job of showing just how far she's come by the end of the third arc.

Group D Final
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero

Saber is a good improvement case, but I think she hits her limit here. I buy classicalzawa's argument on this one much more than Vaisaga's, as Simon has to come a long way to buck up and take over after spoiler[Kamina's death]. He then recovers from a fall and builds up to lead again in the final third. I don't think Saber's improvement being more understated hurts her, but Simon's is a little more involved.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 4917
Location: Windsor Ontario

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:23 pm Reply with quote
But is getting over spoiler[Kamina's death] (which he doesn't really get over, btw) really more impressive than getting over all that crap that happened in Fate/Zero? spoiler[Kamina's death] was sad sure (well, not to me), but Fate/Zero was soul crushing.

On a side note, I'm not surprised at this at all, but earlier Saber's development was accused of being sexist, yet no one raises a fuss about Simon's development into a stereotypical "manly man" who solves everything with his fists drills.
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One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Posts: 1076

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:26 pm Reply with quote
Just got home too tired to vote now. I think I'll go to bed and leave it to the weekend.

Olliff wrote:
Wow, this is a very interesting final four for both my minigame and based on their merits. I am kind of put in a tough position in the minigame. I can't miss a single remaining pick to win.

Group B and Group D will be the matches to watch. While other low odd probabilities exist, I am fairly certain that OneEye, marie-antoinette, and myself will top 3. This round will determine if I beat marie-antoinette and the next round will decide if OneEye will win.

Never thought I'd be in the top three. About 1/2 way thru the tourney I figured I had a shot at finishing up at a respectable 4th-6th place. Some of the better character descriptions helped me out with shows I hadn't seen, but most of my emotional choices bombed lol. Glancing at the spreadsheet the way I see it is that unless there's a minor upset then this round Olliff will go 4/4, marie-antoinette 3/4, and myself--having made more emotional choices--much worse. So, I think it will come down to the finals whether I can stay in the top three or drop off. Should be interesting. Very Happy
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errinundra
Enjoying the time of EVEEnjoying the time of EVE


Joined: 14 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 6:19 pm Reply with quote
Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu
vs.
Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop

I know it's the luck of the draw but I was watching an episode of Kurau Phantom Memory last night and it occurred to me how unjust it was that Ayaka Steiger has long been eliminated and Daikichi Kawachi is still going. Anyway, he's completely out of his depth here. Looking over the final eight and it's clear that two characters, of which Fakir is one, stand head and shoulders above the rest.

Group B Final
Chihiro, Spirited Away
vs.
Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat!
vs.
Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

Character development isn't one of Hayao Miyazaki's strong suits so the growth of Chihiro is the reason why I rate Spirited Away, along with Porco Rosso for much the same reasons, as the best of his films. It may not be the most profound improvement but it is beautifully realised. I am tempted to vote for Scar on the basis of the first series and what people have said about the second while, from what I've seen and read, I think Kyoko's merits make her a worthy opponent. I'll stick with the superb execution of Spirited Away.

Group C Final
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal

This is a surprisingly good match-up. Both undergo profound changes that are stunningly portrayed: one from bewildered sociopath to inspirational leader; the other from dead-hearted psycopath to committed pacifist. Both developments are presented convincingly in great detail. I'll give the nod to Youko because Kenshin's final battle in the snow is somehow not as convincing as what has gone before, thereby undermining his case.

Group D Final
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero

Vaisaga has nicely argued the case against Simon and for Sabre. I'll just add three points here.

1. Simon does not deserve credit for his supposed growth in confidence and bravery. His courage is entirely dependent on Gurren Lagann. Without it he is nothing, as he himself realises in episode 17 when we see how unsuited to leadership he actually is. As we also see at the end, he returns to the essential Simon - a loser.

2. On an entertainment level Simon gets steadily more annoying. Whatever his initial shortcomings at least he wasn't as excruciating as the loud-mouthed bully boy, Kamina. With the thankful demise of Kamina, Simon proceeds to become Kamina Mark II, but without the conviction.

3. Kamina and Simon are pin-up boys in an anime that, for all its goofy bluster, has a nasty underlying ideology, one that sits well with the self-centred consumerism of the anime market. It also fits in with the post 9/11 desire for easily defined enemies who will get their arses justifiably whipped and also with the triumph of global warming denialism. Simon represents the notion that difficult problems are most easily resolved through violence and where unrestrained desires are valorised. The anti-spirals are actually correct: spiral life forms are going to ruin the planet and, given the opportunity and the prevailing sentiment of the series, will do their best to destroy the universe. Gurren Lagann presents that human recklessness as a laudable thing.
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marie-antoinette
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Joined: 18 Sep 2005
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 8:16 am Reply with quote
Sunday tally. Only 8 votes in so far but hopefully that will change, since we do have two competitive matches on-going.

Group A Final
Fakir, 8
vs.
Daikichi Kawachi, 0

Group B Final
Chihiro, 2
vs.
Kyoko Mogami, 2
vs.
Scar, 4

Group C Final
Youko Nakajima, 8
vs.
Kenshin Himura, 0

Group D Final
Simon, 5
vs.
Saber, 3

Group A and C are so far blowouts, surprising no one.

Group B is going how these three-way matches tend to, with both of the tied contestants maintaining support, though not enough of it at the moment.

Even though the 2 vote difference is the same for B and D, I'd still say the latter is the match to watch most here since the debate there seems quite a bit more heated. Hopefully we can get some more people voting who have seen both series, to bring new or supporting arguments.
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Tris8



Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 2113
Location: Where the rain is.

PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 10:02 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
I'm honestly not sure what to tag... Pretty much all that stuff is common knowledge...
You got it, thanks.

Group A Final
Fakir, Princess Tutu
vs.
Daikichi Kawachi, Bunny Drop
Fakir a million times over. He overcomes deep-rooted fear and guilt to fight fate itself.

Group B Final
Chihiro, Spirited Away
vs.
Kyoko Mogami, Skip Beat!
vs.
Scar, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
I go with Chihiro. I adore all three of these anime, but Chihiro's improvement gets the most development and focus of the three. In the beginning, she's an annoying kid. But she grows in to someone who spoiler[forces an angry, blood-stained and thrashing dragon to swallow medicine so that he'll live.] I don't think I have the guts to do that.

Group C Final
Youko Nakajima, The Twelve Kingdoms
vs.
Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal
This is actually quite a difficult decision for me, but I go with Youko as she started off farther in the hole than Kenshin. Kenshin was a killer, yes, but it wasn't mindless murder. He was fighting for a conviction. Youko wasn't doing anything with her life as a school girl, and as soon as the monkey-spirit started messing with her head, she didn't know what to believe. That she was able to overcome that and develop her own convictions will never cease to impress me.

Group D Final
Simon, Gurren Lagann
vs.
Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero
Saber starts out an essentially good person, but is racked with guilt over spoiler[the fate of Camelot] which she believes to be her fault. Simon also starts out as a good person, although unlike Saber he is weak of will and not kick-ass. Both characters eventually learn to believe in themselves. I give the edge to Simon, as he has to learn how to be strong and forgive himself for spoiler[not being able to save Kamina].
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