Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2006-08-25]
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Magenta Syntax
Posts: 16 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Companies really like to make money, they have a responsibility to their shareholders or investors to make as much as they possibly can. They are not ignorant of fansubbing. Accountants have counted the beans several times. If they saw advantage in fansubs, or low-quality time limited samples on YouTube, they wouldn't protest so much.
In order for a for-profit studio-supported fansub system to work, the studio would have to hire additional people fluent in all major "fansub market" languages to moderate, coordinate, and track progress of their volunteer workforce. Someone has to be on point and responsive to translation questions; when you pay for a download, you expect it to be right.
It's the fault of the studio moderator QC person. What if the QC person couldn't get cooperation from the fansub volunteers? Umm... What if the studio was aiming for a simultaneous worldwide release, had bought ads in advance for this, but some languages weren't ready in time, or were released with problems just to make the date? It's the studios fault for not making sure all the work was done before taking out ads and working up expectations. How long should a studio sit on a show, paying these moderator's salaries, waiting for all the volunteer work to get done? Forget volunteers. It's like herding cats. Let's sign up some real people who are not anonymous, and pay 'em something so they have a greater sense of investment and responsibility. How much will THAT cost? Now we have 100 additional people on the payroll working 20 languages, and we don't even know if our show works with a Japanese audience! |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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I think you're exaggerating the situation.
Who said they had to even start trying to cover that many languages? Not to mention it could be done by a small group of people in all actuality and the original creators don't have to be responsible for foreign distribution after all, they never were, just the companies who want to get the license for distributing it in a certain language(s). Again, if they see profit in it, it wouldn't be hard for them to do it. It would have to be pioneered obviously with attempts, so a large scale first attempt isn't expected anyway. |
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Magenta Syntax
Posts: 16 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Huh? I think you said you want a system where the studios get in on the "fansub" action, so interested fans worldwide can see a show all at the same time, while the studio gets paid. I presented a potential business model for a studio: managers per-language that coordinate the efforts of a lightly paid staff, making their contribution from around the world. I had no basis for throwing out "20 languages" - so shouldn't have used a number. The studio would decide; Too many, and they waste money. Too few, and they lose money. I suggest an efficient way to do this would be to end the current licensing system, which leads to so many delays during negotiations and creates the vacuum for "I don't care" free fansub groups. The studio would manage worldwide distribution of the translations they've coordinated, insuring everyone involved got paid, and all markets for the show would get simultaneous releases with quality translations coordinated between the groups and the original writer. |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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Yeah I guess that makes good sense then. Either way, it still seems a bit far off.
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Magenta Syntax
Posts: 16 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Right.
What I've suggested will likely never happen. We have to face the reality of the current business model, where certain translator/distributors are trusted by Anime studios to do a good job with their work in the language-markets where they do business. The license system distributes the risk and allows the studios to focus on what they do best. Why should a studio tell all of the licensors that it has built up relationships with - to go to hell? The reality of the current volume of fansub activity, the ease of availability - regardless of how well intentioned some groups may be - throws a monkey wrench into that system. |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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Well it's not a huge monkey wrench or it'd be a bigger issue. Heck, issues at this column if anything are issues to anime fans but that alone isn't such a huge segment I gather. Eh, well, at least we do have fansubs today, hopefully at least until better liscensing in the future.
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Keonyn
Subscriber
Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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It'd be a bigger issue if they actually had the ability to protect their property, something you and other fansub advocates love pointing out. They have to deal with it for the time being because it's not really something they can afford to make it a bigger issue. Since it's apparent "better liscensing" to you means you get it for nothing or for free and it selfishly caters to your specific desires let's hope that doesn't occur. And as much as some of you love to whine about copyright laws being too strict, the sheer fact that you point out they can't touch you only demonstrates that's just a justification.
You've yet to demonstrate any practical and legitimate way to better license anything that would actually work in the real world. You've only whined and complained about how you want things to be that work best for you, but I've got a little bit of news that might come as a shock to you, this world doesn't exist just for you and for someone who thinks he's doing what's best for everyone it's only evident that you are in fact far more selfish and greedy than the companies you paste that label on. |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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If you're addressing me, It's really quite funny how you think I'm really indicating cost to me is a factor for my argument. I'm thinking of time if anything when I say better liscensing, which ultimately means they could come out with something subbed before dubbed afterall to be practical and have things in their favor. I'm not one of the people who's even talking about copyright, I know it's wrong to misuse it pure and simple, I'm not trying to win an invalid argument. I never said any of the companies were greedy at all, if anything they aren't greedy enough or they would have better liscensing and restriction in the first place for themselves, well, if it was that easy. I'm trying at least to be realistic, fansubs happen because it's very practical on a personal level, companies don't mess with it because it isn't practical enough for them, or at least they don't think it is, today. Magenta Syntax was the one who demonstrated a correct way to do it and I admit it makes good sense, again, all that's missing is its utilization which again, is up to them, not us. If you have a better idea lets hear it.
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Magenta Syntax
Posts: 16 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Keonyn
Subscriber
Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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They they'd have to produce two releases, with unknown sales numbers for each. The cost of anime would only rise as a result due to the increased production costs and the fact they're cutting their sales in two ensuring that one group would not be interested in one of the releases increasing the likelihood of orphaned product. Licensing takes time because they need to come to an agreement and bid for the product, they don't wait for months to start bidding, usually they start before Japanese audiences even see it. It's a very complex system and it's not quite so simple. Fansubs don't exist for the practicality of anyone but themselves, because the "fans" want it fast and they want it now and they want it free. Maybe some fansub advocates have better intentions, but I simply don't trust the intentions of most as I've seen far too often that it's the free anime that draws most in. |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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Well ok, I'll take back the subbed release but you should get the idea, ultimately they'd just have to come out with releases sooner if they were to truely combat fansubs. Yeah, you're right, licensing is a complex system and yes, I too said fansubs existed for the individuals. I'm just trying to argue for what's best for the licensers to do given the situation, I'm not here to justify fansubs except that they do exist because people are selfish, pure and simple. Again, complex system it may be, but there's much room for improvement... all it takes is time, money, and effort, and I imagine it would be extremely possible in all actuality to have coinciding releases there and anywhere else. Eh, this argument though won't really do much though sadly, I don't intend to try and go into business... no idea about the rest of you. |
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Magenta Syntax
Posts: 16 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Steve, it seems you have the "people are basically evil" philosophy. Can't trust 'em. "Just look at the D/L #'s - I must be right."
It doesn't have to be that way. People can change their behavior. One reason companies are reluctant to do anything differently is that they shouldn't have to. With education, such as that attempted here, one reader at a time, people learn that fansubs are not the free gift they once thought - see the articles I quoted? You had trouble putting into words a system you could agree with, so for "I have no life" reasons, I put forth the effort. A place we could all start from; something that could work, if not for some big holes, without all the arm-waving. Are you more informed about the negatives (refer to quoted articles) associated with: --Getting all your Anime fix from fansubs (as opposed to the less heinous "if I come across a fansub, I'll check out the 1st ep to see if I might buy the show when the DVD comes out, even if I wait for a SALE or BOX SET or just rent the thing because (problem1, problem2.)?") , --Promoting fansubs to others? Are you going to be more respectful of copyright in the future, and do less of the above two items? Please say yes. |
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Steve007101
Posts: 165 Location: IL, USA |
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Peh, look, people aren't evil, neither are we good, we're rational believe it or not which at times can be which ever of the two you prefer to call it. I never said anything nearly as stupid as "just look at the D/L #'s - I must be right" but that you have to at least pay attention to it and that it will take something to change their mind. Honestly I don't think education alone can always help a situation. Sure the companies don't have to care, but they also don't have to care about their audience, advertisement, and product if they don't want to either. Of course people can change, but they'll do what they'll do, and I'm here to say it's good that you've thought of a way to help them not do it as much. You make me wonder if I'm really saying things that incorrectly state my stance but I don't see how. To answer your question, I will say I haven't downloaded fansubs for myself in quite awhile, and I'm going to buy an anime DVD set in just a bit.
Time will tell the future but things will still happen for the reasons they do no matter what I say or not, I was merely here to help guide this topic into an appropriate direction on how the behavior of people can actually be changed and we already went over that. |
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Magenta Syntax
Posts: 16 Location: Seattle, WA |
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People are generally rational, which is a good thing when I go to a store. I would guess 99% on average of the customers in any given store are rational and make purchases for goods and don’t shoplift. But larger stores seem to bet on evil, by tagging products and installing “stop thief!” sensors at the doors. (Most of the time it’s a false alarm because the tag didn’t get deactivated.) Stores that check receipts against purchases are treating everyone as a potential shoplifter.
As an aside, RFID tags are going to push this idea further and nearly eliminate the checkout line. If you have an account on file with a store, you could just pick up the stuff you want and leave, the sensors at the door properly charging you for everything. Now, would you or I take advantage if those checks were not in place? Of course not; you’ve said as much several times:
Somehow, downloading from the internet seems different, because people have less expectation of getting caught. That’s just perception. I know you know it’s wrong by your statements. It’s OK to say that you and lots of other people “do wrong things” – but don’t whitewash or defend or convince yourself that it’s right, because it’s practical or rational.
"I will say I haven't downloaded fansubs for myself in quite awhile, and I'm going to buy an anime DVD set in just a bit." Great! You would not have seemed quite as uncaring about the Anime industry if you had taken a breather and thought of including this in your arguments. When many people start D/L’ing a show, some get so hooked in they start demanding more like it’s the good drugs. Be patient and wait for the drugs to get legalized. Mass downloaders should to take a step back, just be a fan, and spread the good word to friends with pictures and discussion, not torrent files. Leverage the Japanese studio websites more (where they are often putting up trailers) and find ways to let them know their future foreign markets are eager for some translated info about what they’re up to. And, of course, politely let the distributors in your region know that you've heard about show X and would like to see them pick it up. |
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Magenta Syntax
Posts: 16 Location: Seattle, WA |
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“The fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, I can tell you for every person a fansub could turn away that would have been turned away to begin with they are matched or exceeded by the target audience becoming aware of it and then getting the actual release.” You are stating a fact? Cite the study that backs this up. Use google. Yes, it takes time to research info, but if you find support for something you want to say, you gain credibility. Otherwise, start such sentences with "I believe."
It is not rational to place the responsibility for fixing a problem on the victim.
Your additional point is that RIAA can’t sue everybody. True. But they don’t have to, to achieve results. To the contrary, the RIAA lawsuits of hundreds of people at a time cause a chilling effect, as friends tell friends what happened to the sued person. They’re still at it, a group of 750 were sued Feb 28 of this year. A list of downloaded songs and a demand for $3,750? Yikes! The cases can be fought in court, some are, some are dismissed, some folks quietly pay – but the chilling effect is out there. Even the “grandma who doesn’t have a computer” mistakes, which make us all laugh, work in the music industry’s favor, generating additional news coverage that illegal downloads are bad. The RIAA’s pressure on the p2p networks is creating change in the music industry as more and more go legit (here’s just two:) July 27, 2006 - Kazaa Settles with Record Industry and Goes Legitimate “…Kazaa has agreed to pay a substantial sum in compensation to the record companies…” August 17, 2006 - BearShare Returns as Legal P2P Service “…agreed in May to pay $30 million to the RIAA to avoid a copyright infringement lawsuit”
You shot yourself in the foot with your “value” counter-argument, saying that the world doesn’t run based on things that are valued by people, getting paid for. “You're assuming your opinion of "value" must mean they'd want to pay for it, the world doesn't work based on that.” Wow. And if that’s not what you meant, that is certainly what it looks like. You lumped together morality & legality with practicality, then said people generally think only in practical terms, implying the Anime industry should get off its moral and legal high-horse and, like a Stockholm-syndrome kidnap victim might, surrender to practicality. That’s the crux of your opinion from start to finish. It’s not debate to complain that no one’s responding to your opinion, then responding to a response that you think misses your point – by accusing the responder of being ridiculous and just plain wrong without backing up things you believe to be facts with some numbers and footnotes. The burden of proof is on you, as the one making the claims. You really want Zac on your side, if your ideas are as good as you think. But, what you have so far are complaints, not a plan. Large numbers of people including myself come to ANN to complain about some thing or other, it’s a common activity. So any given person’s observations have to be pretty well thought out to rise above the noise. (Reshaping an established industry all by yourself is a Herculean task.) So Zac pushed you, you pushed him back – re-read this long post and work on building better thought-out sentences if you want next time to work out better. “And yeah you bet I overdue it, that's how I am when I argue lol” With age and a few slapdowns comes wisdom, or so they say. I got my share of D’s on English class essays – I thought I knew what I was saying, but my teachers saw a confusing mess and pointed it out. If you respond as soon as you read a forum post, often you’re so wrapped up in the moment that you open yourself up for flames and more work down the road trying to straighten out people on what you REALLY meant. That’s clearly happened to you a few times in this forum. Arguing just because you like to argue is a selfish waste and is not appreciated; it's a great way to get ignored. So, if you're being ignored, re-read your last post and ask yourself if it looks like the same statement as a previous post, only louder. Read further back; maybe somebody else has said pretty much the same thing in different words. Think of a different approach, or just give up and spare yourself trouble. "You make me wonder if I'm really saying things that incorrectly state my stance but I don't see how." This is a hopeful sign. Here's a simple technique to improve your words: write in a separate program that has spell-check, go do something for a few hours, then come back and re-read what you have, thinking of ways you could be misunderstood. Revise, rewrite, copy/paste, post.
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