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radda wrote:

To go back to my Thompson comment, I play ultra violent video games all the time, and I'm a pretty good shot, but I've never felt like actually killing anybody, and the one time I went to a pistol range I totally sucked.

Another fallicious argument. I've often seen this point brought up as the defense for playing the game to imply that there is no effect whatsoever.

This is patently false. There have been numerous psychological studies on this, and there are results of this that those play these types of games tend to be more aggressive and geared towards violence.

It's not a matter of not confusing reality from fantasy - it's a matter of how one reacts in reality after experiencing the fantasy. Certainly, there are a varieity of findings amongst researchers, but there is still a common belief amongst them that there is some effect left in the end.

That said, the exposure we are given to sex in general is also significant in our culture. There is a reason behind the saying "sex sells". It is a base part of our nature. We are hit with the abstract concepts of sex and sex appeal every time we go to the grocery store and buy food when we get to the check out stand - look at the magazines they want us to buy. The TV shows put on to entertain us. Don't tell me that primetime TV doesn't go there either. Sex is a big part of it too. Do I really need to list off examples?

As a soceity, we are big on sex - and even though all the examples I mentioned are abstract, they seem to have a profound effect on us. That said, it is quite reasonable that the concept of the sexualization of a young girl raise an eyebrow or two. As such, while Nymphet may also be an abstract concept, it too can have an effect on percieved reality. Sure, the average reader may not go to some extreme level and try to lure some elementery school kid with candy, but this doesn't mean that they won't start ogiling a twelve year old as a result of reading this material.

Who knows what the long term effects are? - but I do think that percieved reality is important in how we conduct ourselves as a whole, and everything we read, say, interact with, etc shapes our perceptions. Given that, I think it's important to consider what we should and shouldn't allow in our lives.

Godaistudios wrote:

This is patently false. There have been numerous psychological studies on this, and there are results of this that those play these types of games tend to be more aggressive and geared towards violence.

The studies I've seen say there is no effect at all, or were done on children as opposed to adults (and this manga sure as hell isn't geared toward children). Everything that's been published so far has been countered by another study that gives the opposite result, weather it's for or against.

The argument is not fallacious in the slightest, because it presents the same concept: differentiation between reality and fantasy. It's only fallacious to you because you disagree with it.

The only people that would be turned on by sexual imagery of an eight year old in a non-pornographic setting would have to be pedophiles to begin with, plain and simple. Same goes for videogames: the only ones that would commit a crime depicted in a game are those that are already prone to violence.

I've read the manga, and I thought it was hilarious, and not ONCE was I turned on by anything in it. I've also read Ichigo Mashimaro (Strawberry Marshmallow, whatever you guys call it around here) and that didn't do anything for me either, other than make me laugh.

The imagery is what you make of it. If you don't have any predisposition towards children to begin with, then it shouldn't be a problem. If it offends you, then congrats, don't read it.

We should all just agree to disagree... no one is going to change anyone else's mind... We all have our opinions, and those won't be changed without actually reading Nymphet, which some of us are not going to bother doing. So there's really no point in continuing this thread...

I for one am surprised at the amount of effort Seven Seas is putting into this release to try and appease the vocal ranting internet minority, not taking into account all the people who might know what this is, and pick it up in the store, or buy it off amazon, without ever having read a single forum post about it...
I'll still be holding my judgement on this title until after I've read it. If the world hasn't come to an end by then, I'll let you know what I think...

I somehow don't get why this discussion is degrading into the typical "is lolicon ok" flamewar that's not going to get anywhere. This isn't even a legal argument, they're not going into uncharted teritory with this. Attacking each others personal positions isn't going to change anything.

I respect thier position here with Nymphet. Seven Seas is aware of its position. They're not legally obligated to take action, as there is nothing wrong with the manga series in a legal sence. However, they appear to be fully aware that the content and story is objectionable to some, and wish to make thier position and the content of the book clear to all those involved before any sort of controversy comes back and causes issues. If something occurs with one of the retailers because of the content, they have thier position to fall back to. A worst case would involve a company pulling distribution of all thier manga, not just Nymphet, and thats something they wish to avoid.

Publishing Nymphet is risky, the wide range of opinions here show a pretty good reason why. Nymphet is pushing into new, uncharted teritory. I think, as would Seven Seas is as well that its a worthy risk, but if they come under fire it would be much better for all the players involved to be expecting it than to be caught unaware.

hmm haven't been here for a while and found a great new post.

anyway. i give seven seas major props.

one is because he's not just doing crap without anyone knowing and pissing off fans. he came out and explained things. he explained what the manga is truly about and is going up to bat with the stores. how many anime corparates would do that?!

two is what he believes about manga. how he's against edits and things and is willing to try something new on the american otaku consumers.

what i dont like is people taking this outta hand without even reading it. i suggest we all get a copy and judge it ourselves. im gonna support the title because it seems like a cool story and i've been looking forward to it for a while.

nay sayers and mangalovers....lets give it a try

Paploo:

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Geez, after Joe Queseda insults fandom with his jerkariffic response response to the controversy

What controversy? The covers aren't any more sexist than those for Wonder Woman or Gen 13.

Looking further into one of the comments: " A typical dodge when art is demeaning and done by a woman is to blame her for the published content, or to say it makes it all right."

The latter comment sums up the inherent failure in the feminist movement. The idea that women should be able to choose what they want, unless it's politically incorrect. (Like being a stripper or adult star.) Then they're stabbing their "sisters" in the back, because they chose not to become a doctor or a rocket scientist. But if you support a war and a cheating husband like Hillary did, it's important to overlook that, and vote for her party, anyway, because they'll protect a woman's right to choose, except when the choice involves gay marriage and jobs which aren't sold to third-world countries. Rolling Eyes

Anyway, rant aside, when Batman's tied up, no one calls that demeaning to men, so why is it bad, when it happens to women?

"Ignoring the criticism that the characters are NOT depicted as strong on the cover, but hurt and passive."

So women who've been assaulted who are hurt are not strong? Now who's being sexist?!

"She has what looks like semen on her cleavage. "

That's saliva.

"They're not fighting the brood, Joe. "

Did you actually read the contents of the issue before coming to that conclusion? Rolling Eyes

"Even my 14-year-old daughter knows about tentacle rape, and she didn't learn about it from this cover."

So if your daughter realizes it exists, and doesn't put up a fit about it, why do you?

"Even if you didn't, Joe, someone at Marvel did (for example, the artist also does a book with C.B. Cebulski at Image, and I guarantee you Cebulski did, he's worked with Japanese creators for some time. Sana sure knew about it). "

Yeah, blame Marvel for horny fanboys. Rolling Eyes

OMG!! Dem Japanese are corrupting our 'murican comics! Laughing

"Do you really believe this is appropriate for a nine-year-old?"

It's no more inappropriate than Tomb Raider. Hell, parents didn't complain about nine-year olds being exposed to a bloody Robin, so I don't see why this pic is somehow worse.

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I was kind of thinking "Well, if Marvel doesn't respect my intelligence, mabye Manga publishers do?" I guess stuff like this means they don't.

The fact that they're willing to leave it uncensored, as opposed to Dark Horse and Shadow Star and Viz and the Shana novel-not to mention some Inu Yasha dialogue-indicates a lot more respect for your intelligence on the part of Seven Seas.

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With this kind of response, I think Seven Seas is severely disrespecting the concerns of fans who spoke out against Nymphet, and doing the rest of it's line of comics/manga a disservice by taking such an immature approach to a press release.........

I don't think they're disrespecting the fans at all, since it's a comedy, and the character is immature, and they're just emphasizing that point.

Anymouse:

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Using the Japanese as a crutch to defend fetishes that disgust them is low.

Yeah, well the Catholic Church uses religion as a crutch to defend pedophile priests...

Zac:

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I don't even know if you CAN sexualize Shin-chan;

Then you really should read the manga, as he's prone to make jokes related to child molestation and sexual abuse by his dad. Him and his grandpa even compare "trunks".

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The people who have read this title usually say "Well it isn't pornographic but claiming it's an innocent fantasy is nonsense, clearly this character is designed to appeal to lolicons".

The pics make me think they're making fun of pedos.

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No. You stop casual acceptance of the sexualization of children.

Why is it when Kubrick, Nobokov and Larry Clark do it, it's ok?

fighterholic:

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Is this normal for an 8 year old to act like that? Absolutely not, unless she was brought up in some sick manner.

I don't see how it's any more sick than our gun culture which has led to the Columbine and VT shootings...

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Yes, I can prove this link: MYSELF. Exposure to young girls dressed indecently while I'm working my job as a cashier made me think about going out and raping young girls. I also happened to have some manga that had underage girls involved in sex acts. Satisfied now? Rolling Eyes I went through a good three months therapy to fix this problem. The thing is you may know the difference between fantasy and reality. There's a whole lot of other people who don't. It doesn't matter whether they're exposed to a drawing or a real picture. When it happens to you, be sure to let me know.

I appreciate your honesty, but you might wanna be careful, because the feds might be tapping your ISP. Wink

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The problem is people rant on about this stuff yet they're not watching their kids and seeing what they're doing, I've seen moms buy Grand Theft Auto for the grade school age kids. Why do kids at times turn out to be violent and then parents are complaining?

I knew plenty of kids who grew up watching slasher films, and they didn't stab
people at camps.

People thinks some how this material is ok because its animated and its fantasy. That's a huge crock that is really idiotic. So,you are saying just because its animated its do have to live up to the moral decency like live action television shows. I ain saying live action shows are perfect but if this was a live action show where a eight years old girl is expressing her sexual feeling to a teacher. That would be a major outcry. Even if its was consider a porno. This seems like a shock value product to make such a media outcry its make more money on the product. And that a very disciple thing for the company to do.

Godaistudios wrote:

There have been numerous psychological studies on this, and there are results of this that those play these types of games tend to be more aggressive and geared towards violence.

The problem with your oversimplification of these studies is that it fails to separate cause from effect.

Is "subject x" more violent because he plays the violent video games, or does he play the violent video games because he has a violent nature, or are both the result of a third, unamed cause?

In other words, yours is a fallacious an argument as the previous one.

-t

Wow. Congrats to Seven Seas Entertainment and Jason DeAngelis for doing something many of the people arguing about this arent: Responding and dealing with this issue in a mature and intellegent way. Theyve obviously though about the issue, still support their old positionand therefore will still release it. But realise that it may be a sensitive issue so will take some time to handle it and let retailers know.

"The important context here is that the girl's advances on her teacher are never reciprocated by him; her teacher is horrified by her actions, and his romantic interest is in fact another adult teacher. The comedy arises out of this young girl saying and doing improper things "

Its funny cause this was pretty much exactly what I said when everyone first started jumping on Nymphet. Now Im not necisarily defending it. I have not read it so therefore I cant comment on the true issue. That being does it sexualize young children? Without reading it I cant say because that is all about the little things in how its done and cant be summed up in a story summary. I'll leave it up to Seven Seas Entertainment to decide uppon reconsidering the issues wether it is a problem.

I'm betting no one posting against Nymphet has seen the "Proper Condom Use" episode of South Park. Cartman, a 4th grader, sexually pleases a dog because some older kids told him it was a game. This was on US television. Also, in another episode, Cartman is trying to gather semen(he clearly doesn't know what it is) and references getting it from a man in an alleyway. all he had to do was "close his eyes and suck it out of a hose". Then there's the episode where Jimmy(another 4th grader) starts getting erections, and ends up hiring a whore.

Or, hey, what about that restraunt in South Park? Raisins? It's like Hooters, except they're all 8 year olds.

Last edited by Swissman on Tue May 29, 2007 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

The move from Seven Seas is a clever one, in at least tree ways. Not only do they consider what people think about the idea of such a title instead of ignoring it, but they also try to avoid any possible problems by adressing distributors and booksellers. Last but not least, it's good marketing for Kojika, considering all the people here who say they will read Nymphet to see what the fuss is all about.

The controversy about Nymphet here and elswhere however doesn't say much about the actual content of the story per see. It rather reveals cultural attached moral values, differents views on fiction vs. reality and some kind of double moral.

Like Seven Seas' Jason DeAngelis indirectly pointed out, there's a cultural difference in humour. The humour in Kojika is japanese insofar as that it show's how a person can be ridiculized in public and made aware of something he's ashamed of. The jokes are mostly centered around the teacher, how he reacts to a sexually precocious 3rd grader (most of the time he's dumbstruck and embarrassed) and how he remains in blissful ignorance from the advances of a busty female teacher.

Moreover, the issue "sexualization of children" has been mentioned here and in the other threads as real problem of this title. "Sexualization" is a difficult concept and vague, furthermore it's culturally attached too. But let's see at the actual content of Nymphet: There's not a lot of up front nudity of the main girls to be found and when it there, it's mostly when they take a bath. Nudity in this context is perfectly normal for a japanese readership. Let's keep in mind that it's not an unusual thing in japanese households for a father to take baths with his younger daughter(s) (something which had to be stressed out in the West when My Neighbor Totoro was released in the nineties).

But what about the jokes like this nakadashi kibou from the scan? Isn't that clearly "sexualization of children" and to be refused at all cost? I rather think it's meant as a joke in the original insofar as, like I wrote earlier, it shows how the teacher is embarrassed at a 3rd grader who loves to make him aware of how sexually precocious she is, which in turn is meant to be hilarious because unreal and taken to an extreme.

What about some scenes with panty-shots or the allusion that Rin, the main character of Nymphet, had sex with her teddy bear (beneath the cover of the third book), isn't that extremely questionable? ... This is a difficult one, I must admit. In the first case I think we must keep in mind how casual in Japan the sight of female (or even male) underwear has become as signifier of humour in mainstream media. Yes, humour. In case of manga it goes back at least to the late sixties when Go Nagai published his famous Harenchi Gakuen and it's so common in mainstream manga nowadays no one really notifies if a character is 17, 14 or, like in this case, 9 years old when showing his or her panties. The second one is, again, meant as a hilarious joke because of the unreality of the whole situation.

But what about the readership. Isn't Nymphet targeted at a male Otaku-readership and therefore highly suspect of pandering towards the dark side of human taste? Yes, it is. But does that equal "sexualization of children" on the other hand? I doubt it. What happens here is that fictional 3rd graders (in the newest chapters they're in 4th grade) are being "moeized". In other words, they're made especially cute in their behavior and appearance so to please it's male audience, which isn't a big deal in Japan with it's culture of general cuteness and more patriarchal values on sexuality, whereas in the west it's another piece of cake.

Wow, just....

Geez, maybe I do live in a really messed up country where people will freak out over a man having a very awkward rlationship with a 3rd grader in Nymphet, yet don't raise a stink about 30 High school girls going after a 10 year old teacher (one heavily into shota-esque themes) in Negima.

Last edited by Raelanura on Tue May 29, 2007 5:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

I've said it before and here I am saying it again: this debate it pretty damn pointless. It's a moral debate with no right or wrong answers, but rather, just people who think they're right against other people who think they're right. I admit (as a pro-loli) that my beliefs may be wrong, but discovering lolicon actually drew me away from what was becoming a dangerous interest in real children. That's why I have personally come to the belief that lolicon's not such a bad thing. It may be dodgy, but between that and having an interest in actual children, it's by far the lesser of two evils.

But that's just me.

I wouldn't worry too much about Nymphet painting a picture of the anime community as a horde of child molesters. Ever see Puni Puni Poemy? You can't possibly think that Nymphet is worse than that. I know this is just yet another comparison, but I think it's a pretty good one. This is an anime that contains, for one example, heavily implied oral sex and explicit bondage and S&M involving prepubescent girls, and of course, just like Nymphet, people who like it will describe it as a comedy, despite that it can't possibly be, given the above. Or can it? Well, yeah, it can. So did ADV invoke the apocalypse by licensing that? Nope.

I think there's a little paranoia in the air around here.

Last edited by PantsGoblin on Tue May 29, 2007 5:12 pm; edited 2 times in total

Abarenbo Shogun wrote:

Wow, just....

Geez, maybe I do live in a really messed up country where people will freak out over a man having a very awkward rlationship with a 3rd grader in Nymphet, yet don't raise a stink about 30 High school girls going after a 10 year old teacher (one heavily into shota-esque themes) in Negima.

Might I also add that some of them qualify as loli. Just because they're in high school doesn't disqualify them from that. Just look at Lucky Star, most of those characters qualify as loli, but they're all in high school. I wonder if Nymphet were to say the characters were in high school, it would cause as much controversy (which they could have very well said and it wouldn't make that much difference). I wish people would look at the characters rather than their age. Because with anime age is so versatile, you can easily say characters are an age they don't look like they are (which may be a reason Negima is avoiding as much controversy as I think it should have. One of the main arguments against this is "LOOK, they are in the F-ing THIRD GRADE". Where as "LOOK, they are in the F-ing TENTH GRADE" doesn't have as much of an effect. Despite the characters looking so similar in age).

Unholy_Nny wrote:

I'm betting no one posting against Nymphet has seen the "Proper Condom Use" episode of South Park. Cartman, a 4th grader, sexually pleases a dog because some older kids told him it was a game. This was on US television. Also, in another episode, Cartman is trying to gather semen(he clearly doesn't know what it is) and references getting it from a man in an alleyway. all he had to do was "close his eyes and suck it out of a hose". Then there's the episode where Jimmy(another 4th grader) starts getting erections, and ends up hiring a whore.

Or, hey, what about that restraunt in South Park? Raisins? It's like Hooters, except they're all 8 year olds.

Youre misunderstanding what the sexualization of children is. The key distinction here though is that South Park is obviously produced for humor purposes only. Its not like theres a bunch of out there getting off to Cartman jerkin' off a dog. (or maybe there is, eww...) regardless its obviously not the intention of the show to be anything more than humorous. If thats the case with Nymphet then I dont see anything wrong with it. Its just racy humor just like South Park. The issue is wether it also sexualizes the girl for loli purposes. (Im sick of the term loli, Im gonna call it what it is.) wether it sexualizes the girl for pedophile purposes.

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Seven Seas Entertainment Talks about Nymphet