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REVIEW: Mazinger Z Sub.DVD Part 1


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SantaBla



Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:12 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Again, SantaBla, all you're doing is arguing extreme nitpicky points about classifications.

Okay, so Wikipedia's definition doesn't perfectly fit. But does it mostly fit? That's good enough. Genre classifications aren't that picayune, and one does not have to be a mega-fan just to be able to make a general genre classification.

Example:
Bleach is a series about a young man who gets involved with supernatural forces.
Naruto is a series a boy training to be a ninja.
Fullmetal Alchemist is a series about two brothers who can use what essentially amounts to magical transformation powers who are trying to restore bodies partly or totally lost to an early accident with their powers.

All three of these are quite different series in approach, setting, story elements, and mechanics. But no sane person who knows anything about anime would deny that they are all fairly classified as shonen action series.

Well let's to be clear first. Shounen is a target demographic, not so much a genre.

Yes they are action series. So they can be classified under action. Someone with no knowledge about anime will immediately understand what someone means by action anime. People who don't know any anime will not likely understand the term "shounen".

I'm free to accept the term super robot simply on what those two words mean. Super and robot. I'm however not willing to accept anything more than these words alone.

The other stuff you posted is just his opinion again, on what constitutes super and real. I mean, it's arguable that Tetsujin is the first real, and not Gundam.
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ATastySub



Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:48 pm Reply with quote
Beep boop. What is discussion with humans? They are using words that do not compute with my programming. Beep boop.

Dude. Stop. You don't have to be an actual robot to discuss robot shows. Nor are you going to suddenly change the language everyone has been using to discuss them for decades now. Language is determined by its use. There you go. It doesn't matter on strict definition or anything like that. Language is fluid and takes the path of least resistance as time and discussion goes on. So stop with the one-man crusade. Especially in a discussion that is supposed to be about the review.

On topic: Sad to hear the show didn't age that well. Never got around to watching much of it and sounds like I'm better off saving my money and picking up Imagawa's take on it, which I really enjoyed, once it becomes available.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 620

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:43 pm Reply with quote
SantaBla wrote:


Plus you talked about Ace of Nerae. I've seen a few episodes of that, and doesn't it have a woman fawning over her coach all the time? It does seem to have very old fashioned relationships, and that doesn't seem to be too far from sexism.


I think "fawning" is the wrong word. The characters certainly idolize their coach for his expertise, but it's very much a mentor-student relationship. Old-fashioned? Yes. Sexist? No, none of the female characters are ever degraded for being female, even by other male tennis players. Plus, it has the added bonus of having a female character deciding to pursue her career over pursuing a relationship. That's a trope that seems to be rarer and rarer these days--most opt for a "have your cake and eat it too" approach.

EDIT: As for the clip you showed...it's in Spanish. So, there's not a whole lot of context I can glean from that. (The fact that it started with a Peeping Tom scene doesn't really inspire confidence either.) From what I can gather, Koji and Sayaka had a pretty brutal fight (for some reason), and when Sayaka refused to help Koji (because he never apologized?), he got hurt, and now it's her fault. Whether it's her fault for being a stubborn woman or just a stupid tsundere (not my favorite archetype) is unclear. To make up for this, she goes off on her own to fight the baddie, but ends up needing Koji's help. He apologizes(?) and they win.

It's not...the worst scenario I've ever seen, but quite a lot of the blame seems to be laid at Sayaka's feet (who isn't even allowed to redeem herself without help), when it really should've been both of them at fault.
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Figland



Joined: 05 Jul 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:14 am Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
SantaBla wrote:
whiskeyii wrote:

Sounds like this release is for die-hard fans of the genre (to the point of academia, if it's mostly/purely for the historical significance) or fans of the old show who grew up on it.


I find the sexism claims really exaggerated and Mazinger does have some pretty good episodes. It's not all repetition.

If you like retro, then I suggest you at least check out the Mazinger Z vs Ankoku Daishogun movie instead of dismissing the entire thing.

There's also the 2009 retelling (Shin Mazinger) closer to the manga directed by Imagawa (Giant Robo, G Gundam).


Hm, maybe I should elaborate a bit. I walked into this review thinking this: "Hey, I've heard of Mazinger Z. It's some sort of historical mech show. I wonder if it's any good.*"

*And by "good", I meant, "Is it entertaining as a standalone piece that has stood the test of time?"

Largely, it sounds like "no". I'm not a huge fan of mecha/robot shows, or whatever terminology you care to use, I just pick up stuff that sounds interesting or promising, whatever the genre. For me, this review has enough little red flags cropping up that I'll just give the original a pass.

And sexism is a biggie for me, even in small doses; it just happens to be my beserk button. Even as a product of its time, I don't see why I should have to put up with that in a day and age were I can easily pick up another show that lacks sexist undertones.

So, yeah, gonna' pass on this. I might check out the movie at a later time, or the 2009 version, which quite a few people here seem to find more...palatable for a modern audience.


So you refuse to watch a show if you disagree about how a single thing is portrayed? It's clear that you choose to ignore it when it's something you like because sexism exists is [expletive] every piece of fiction. Jesus frickin' Christ.

And it's not even blatant in Mazinger but you keep running your mouth despite never having watched it. It's been explained to you. You don't want realistic characters. What you seek is for everything to conform to your ideals and for every single character to hold these ideals. That would be terribly boring.

SantaBla wrote:
Key wrote:
Again, SantaBla, all you're doing is arguing extreme nitpicky points about classifications.

Okay, so Wikipedia's definition doesn't perfectly fit. But does it mostly fit? That's good enough. Genre classifications aren't that picayune, and one does not have to be a mega-fan just to be able to make a general genre classification.

Example:
Bleach is a series about a young man who gets involved with supernatural forces.
Naruto is a series a boy training to be a ninja.
Fullmetal Alchemist is a series about two brothers who can use what essentially amounts to magical transformation powers who are trying to restore bodies partly or totally lost to an early accident with their powers.

All three of these are quite different series in approach, setting, story elements, and mechanics. But no sane person who knows anything about anime would deny that they are all fairly classified as shonen action series.

Well let's to be clear first. Shounen is a target demographic, not so much a genre.

Yes they are action series. So they can be classified under action. Someone with no knowledge about anime will immediately understand what someone means by action anime. People who don't know any anime will not likely understand the term "shounen".

I'm free to accept the term super robot simply on what those two words mean. Super and robot. I'm however not willing to accept anything more than these words alone.

The other stuff you posted is just his opinion again, on what constitutes super and real. I mean, it's arguable that Tetsujin is the first real, and not Gundam.


Santa Bla is correct. Something used by english speakers does not make it correct. He's not nitpicking he's stating the truth.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 620

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:44 am Reply with quote
Figland wrote:


So you refuse to watch a show if you disagree about how a single thing is portrayed? It's clear that you choose to ignore it when it's something you like because sexism exists is [expletive] every piece of fiction. Jesus frickin' Christ.

And it's not even blatant in Mazinger but you keep running your mouth despite never having watched it. It's been explained to you. You don't want realistic characters. What you seek is for everything to conform to your ideals and for every single character to hold these ideals. That would be terribly boring.


Uh, I watched the clip SantaBla provided. I found it to be sexist, and I explained why. Other shows, like Gatchaman Crowds, Tsuritama, Aim for the Ace! and others don't have this problem. Rose of Versailles, in anime form, is largely fine, but there's one change towards the end that enraged me (instead of having the main character give a passionate speech about freedom and liberty to convince her troops to join the revolution, she instead says "I'll follow my husband wherever he goes"), but like I said, it's my beserk button--the one issue that makes me madder than all the rest when I come across it.

If you disagree with my viewing choices, that's fine. I'm not making a grand statement for all Super Robot (?) shows, just that this one's *not for ME*. If you like it in the face of its flaws (like how I feel about Rose of Versailles), then by all means, enjoy the heck out of it! But insulting me and making assumptions about what I want in a show is hardly called for. I watch what I want, simple as that.
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 657

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:16 am Reply with quote
Figland wrote:
[
Santa Bla is correct. Something used by english speakers does not make it correct. He's not nitpicking he's stating the truth.


No he is not. He is the kind of person mistaking the forest for the trees. That kind of myopia or pedantry if you will makes it impossible to have a debate with him. Classic usage and history have determined what a super robot show is and what a real robot show is. The term real robot show appeared in the eighties so to describe something that was not a super robot show (all of the robot shows up until Gundam).
And while Gundam is kind of a threshold show neither total super nor total real, more and more robot shows in the eighties start to take elements that characterized Gundam (for instance Baldios, Votoms, SPT Layzner, Macross, Genesis Climber Mospeada, etc...) and less and less elements that characterized shows like Getter Robot, Mazinger, Grendizer and company.
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Figland



Joined: 05 Jul 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:33 pm Reply with quote
whiskeyii wrote:
Figland wrote:


So you refuse to watch a show if you disagree about how a single thing is portrayed? It's clear that you choose to ignore it when it's something you like because sexism exists is [expletive] every piece of fiction. Jesus frickin' Christ.

And it's not even blatant in Mazinger but you keep running your mouth despite never having watched it. It's been explained to you. You don't want realistic characters. What you seek is for everything to conform to your ideals and for every single character to hold these ideals. That would be terribly boring.


Uh, I watched the clip SantaBla provided. I found it to be sexist, and I explained why. Other shows, like Gatchaman Crowds, Tsuritama, Aim for the Ace! and others don't have this problem. Rose of Versailles, in anime form, is largely fine, but there's one change towards the end that enraged me (instead of having the main character give a passionate speech about freedom and liberty to convince her troops to join the revolution, she instead says "I'll follow my husband wherever he goes"), but like I said, it's my beserk button--the one issue that makes me madder than all the rest when I come across it.

If you disagree with my viewing choices, that's fine. I'm not making a grand statement for all Super Robot (?) shows, just that this one's *not for ME*. If you like it in the face of its flaws (like how I feel about Rose of Versailles), then by all means, enjoy the heck out of it! But insulting me and making assumptions about what I want in a show is hardly called for. I watch what I want, simple as that.


You watched a video that you couldn't understand. Clearly you can make a valid statement based on not understanding what's actually happening. It seems to be that you don't want characters to act like people. You want them to act in a way you see fit. This is extremely narrow-minded and SEVERELY limits what you can actually watch assuming you don't cherry pick (which you obviously do)

@Above
You're aware that "super robot" is an advertising term for toys, right? The description often added to "supper robots" don't even fit the description for classics like Mazinger Z, Getter Robo, or Grendizer. Any seasoned fan can tell you that the terms are meaningless and stupidly broad and misleading. This is not hard to understand, really.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 620

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:53 pm Reply with quote
Figland wrote:


You watched a video that you couldn't understand. Clearly you can make a valid statement based on not understanding what's actually happening. It seems to be that you don't want characters to act like people. You want them to act in a way you see fit. This is extremely narrow-minded and SEVERELY limits what you can actually watch assuming you don't cherry pick (which you obviously do)


I made an educated guess based on tropes that still exist in anime. If you want to link a version of that episode with English subs, be my guest.

I don't understand what problem you have with me cherry-picking shows. Why *shouldn't* I choose what I want to watch? People do this with movies, with standard TV shows; what makes anime so special that I absolutely MUST give everything under the sun a go? I know what I like, and I tend to stick to it. If I miss something, I have plenty of friends who watch other types of shows who can tell me if I've missed out on something great.

I also don't get this thing about "not real people". I specifically don't like Koji because in the clip (episode?) I saw, he seems like an asshole. And he's the main character, someone I'm supposed to root for. If I can't get behind him in a clip that was presented specifically to counter the sexism claims, what does that say about how I'll enjoy the rest of the show? In short, that I won't.

And sheesh, it's not like I've insulted you or anything. I've already said you (and any other fan) is free to enjoy it. Just accept that *one* person on the Internet doesn't, and agree to disagree.
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JoeStronger



Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 16
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:39 pm Reply with quote
Man. I know it's been months, but the way these replies are, I can't let the discussion sit like this. So let me start by saying this:

Carl Kimlinger, you are an unbelievable hack who doesn't know the basics of anime, where anime comes from, and how it's progressed, nor an appreciation of that progression. You're spoiled on newer works.

Mazinger Z is by no means a perfect work, and by no means holds up today, but you can't look at it like modern anime. You have to appreciate it like watching old film, looking at how it was for its time. You have done none of that, bashing on its production values, how simplistic its protagonist is, and how it makes "episodic an insult".

First of all, this is a 92 episode show from 1971, what kind of animation are you expecting? This wasn't a unique thing to just Mazinger Z, just about every super robot show from the 70s had bad animation, including 1979's original 43 episode Gundam you claim was "reacting" to Mazinger Z (more on that misnomer later). Animation studios weren't made of money, and recycling loops was an easy process, especially for a show that aired almost weekly, with little to no reruns.

Second, Kouji Kabuto as a "boring" protagonist. This is something else you have to look at from a historical standpoint. At the time of Mazinger Z's release in the 70's, most anime protagonists bordered on polite and well mannered, using the pronoun "boku" as the standard; if you've ever watched Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Jonathan Joestar is a prime example of what anime protagonists used to act like.

Yet here comes Kouji Kabuto, brash, brazen, almost always interjecting the pronoun ore, and quick to a fight. He's the basis of hotblooded characters in mecha, yet like any prototype, the kinks had yet to be ironed out (unless you're reading the manga, where he's incredibly progressive for the time). If you're comparing it to now, or course it's gonna seem "awful" by comparison, there was nothing else really like Kouji at the time, and yes, Kouji is really sexist (read that manga though, if you want the inverse), to Sayaka especially, but remember how she never takes his shit, keeps him alive, and they even do see each other as equals. A similar thing occurs in the 39 episode Devilman, the only thing that keeps the titular character in his place is Miki.

Finally, that "insults episodic" comment. Tetsujin 28 would like a word with you, it bordered on 97 episodes! This was par for the course back then, as there wasn't much else like it! Super Robots were beginning to take shape, and even after Mazinger Z, they continued to border well onto 70, almost 80 episode syndicated runs!

It's hard to call watching and enjoying this show "Stockholm syndrome" when you weren't meant to watch it all in one sitting! It came in week after week, leaving every young kid excited to see the next episode, which they weren't always going to remember, but it didn't matter, giant robots beating the shit out of each other, a hot blooded hero who didn't have to be polite, blood! Like actual 70s blood running out of every monster! What more could you ask for at the time?

The biggest problem you have this whole review Mr. Kimlinger is that you don't understand how to look back at the past. You like to compare things that had yet to exist, and can only reference other works which were "inspired by it". Mobile Suit Gundam was more an attempt than a reaction, Tomino tried to bring a more down to earth tale about giant robots, Gundam was his second attempt! Zambot 3 anyone?

As for Anno's Neon Genesis Evangelion, it's more a deconstruction of mecha, with the biggest inspiration being Tomino's Ideon. Anno loved mecha, and his biggest love letter to the Genre, the six episode OVA Gunbuster, is often ignored and overlooked. Anno loved Mazinger Z, that's why he was so on board with letting his EVA be in Super Robot Wars, against the wishes of higher ups, who felt it's SD image would make it too "cutesy", despite not really understanding the game.

You're spoiled Carl, and perhaps you need a lesson on mecha, because you clearly fail to understand how it works, where it comes from, and how far it's climbed to get to where it is now.
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RahxephonKun



Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:41 am Reply with quote
I agree this is one of the worst reviews I have ever read.

The whole time you read it its like "Why did you even watch this show?"

Most people who read reviews want to read a review from a reviewer who even had a chance of liking the show to begin with, because they are either looking up a show the are interested in watching or that they watched and enjoyed and want others opinions on it.

You would never give this show a chance. Its like me trying to force myself to watch "The Bachelor" and write reviews on it... nobody would like it because Id just bash it the whole time.

This series and Go Nagai himself are innovators who have come up with many of modern animes tropes and themes. His works were so prevalent and controversial in their time. For example harenchi gakuen, which PTA associations across japan tried to get banned, and before it finally did he abruptly ended this manga that before had been the first ecchi comedy manga EVER into a violent bloody ending where the students of the school defend their freedom against the parents/PTA and all die bloody deaths.

Anyway, about Mazinger, It was the start of all mecha anime today, and the start of the hot blooded male protagonist. Without Kouji we would probably not have Kamina, Simon, or others. You can even see his influence in shows like Saint Seiya.

If you watch a 70s anime show you have to be prepared to overlook some of the downsides to anime back then, thats just how it is, if you can't appreciate older shows don't even try to watch them, whats the point?

Mazinger Z has an awesome concept, charactes, and ending. Pretty much started the apocolyptic everyone dying at end trend.

I agree that Shin Mazinger Z is better but thats just how it is... remakes usually are better in anime. Take an older show like this you can cut out all the filler, follow manga exactly, update animation, use what worked and improve on what didn't So yeah it would be AWESOME if they make shin great mazinger after that cliffhanger.

In that case I would say most people should just watch modern version as its just better and more accessible. But this is sitll a classic and def doesnt deserve to be called "terrible" besides its contributions to anime history.

It was a good show, with innovative writing and concepts for its time and is definitely an anime classic.

Ill never understand the hate some anime fans feel towards some anime... I don't like loli or moe shows but I don't go around bashing them or the people that enjoy them. I would like to see more hot blooded, super robo, action, samurai, etc shows but I know what the anime industry is like today, and I still enjoy many animes each season.

I just don't understand all the bashing/ hating we are all anime fans can't you appreciate this awesome piece of anime history? Go Nagai is a legend in this industry and is one of the creators most responsible for the state of the industry today, not to mention challenging Japans social morals and outlooks!
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Fronzel



Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1588

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:03 am Reply with quote
That's quite the necropost. Not the best idea.
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Psycho 101
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Joined: 14 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:02 am Reply with quote
Fronzel wrote:
That's quite the necropost. Not the best idea.

Normally yes, but in this case no. Necroposting does not apply to actual Reviews or Column Articles (Shelflife, Answerman etc). Interest pieces, Advertorials, and general NEWS articles are subject to necroposting rules (which in the updated rules in the near future - hopefully - we'll clarify that). If you have a 1 liner reviving a 4 year old review....well we'd probably just delete the post and let the thread slip back into obscurity. As for this one it is an actual review and it's not a one liner post so no necroposting foul.

However, Columns and Reviews can be locked, permanently or temporarily, if needed. Considering how rude this one was becoming apparently, and given the more negative nature of the new post, I will be watching this thread to make sure it doesn't get heated again.
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JoeStronger



Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 16
Location: United States

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:58 am Reply with quote
Psycho 101 wrote:
Fronzel wrote:
That's quite the necropost. Not the best idea.

Normally yes, but in this case no. Necroposting does not apply to actual Reviews or Column Articles (Shelflife, Answerman etc). Interest pieces, Advertorials, and general NEWS articles are subject to necroposting rules (which in the updated rules in the near future - hopefully - we'll clarify that). If you have a 1 liner reviving a 4 year old review....well we'd probably just delete the post and let the thread slip back into obscurity. As for this one it is an actual review and it's not a one liner post so no necroposting foul.

However, Columns and Reviews can be locked, permanently or temporarily, if needed. Considering how rude this one was becoming apparently, and given the more negative nature of the new post, I will be watching this thread to make sure it doesn't get heated again.


Really? It's not so unbelievably negative. Aside from a few syntax and grammar errors that post was very much comprehensible criticism.
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Desslok



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:48 pm Reply with quote
I've go my Right Stuff shopping cart full of Discotek sets, and i was thinking of picking up Mazinger Z - never saw the series (or the American counterpart Tranzor Z) when I was a kid - but I love the hell out of 60's and 70's anime - Lupin, Yamato, Speed Racer, Gatchaman - all still thrill me.

But since it does seem that the reviewer does have "If its not modern, it stinks" chip on his shoulder, I thought I'd ask for other options. Given that it's cheesy and limited and 70's camp: is it any fun? You can still be goofy as hell and be entertaining.
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