Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Maria the Virgin Witch
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HaruhiToy
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Excuse me? Even the most casual search of ANN forums section yields dozens if not hundreds if the the usages of the same term I used. Anime fourm, Talkback forum. I have never seen it considered a problem by anyone before. What makes it offensive if I write it? And for your information I put it in spoiler tags to emphasize that it was a joke, not because it was offensive. It is not. |
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maximilianjenus
Posts: 2862 |
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afaik, angels are supossed to be genrderless a anyway, since the englihs genderles noun(?) is it, i consider it more offensive than alternating between she and she or even just using whichever of those. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Times change, standards change, it's an old 4chan term that has been widely accepted as a transphobic slur in recent years, so we're not cool with people using it anymore. It always had an offensive etymology, it's now considered a derogatory term for transwomen, many of whom view it as an outright slur, just don't use it, it's not that hard. Last edited by JacobC on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Valhern
 Posts: 916 |
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It technically is offensive because the word implies that someone's gender doesn't adjust to expectations and that one's been 'fooled' or, as the word says 'lured into a trap'; as if one's gender should be there to please anyone. Although it might not be meant that way it is indirectly offensive.
I know, I know, we're just talking about fictional characters here, but more oftenly than not, it is a term used on real people and there would be the problem of it. And I'm sure that it has not been pointed out in many discussions but it's not actually a reason to not do it. |
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KidaYuki
 Posts: 129 Location: North America |
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thank you, I was wondering what it was that the boss man said that made Galfa snap. I was like "Huh the money things back?" |
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justsomeaccount
 Posts: 471 |
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^ Well, the money was probably also other reason more and by killing him and "shutting him up" maybe he could still receive something from all this problem (problem that he is being blamed despite being Maria who ruined it, so more frustration on his shoulders). But anyway, despite all those reasons he still killed someone close to him because of those reasons and the regret came when he was being watched and judged by the other lady instead of inmediately by his own, not a nice fella.
I think angels's sex was up to a lot of discussion since ages, so any interpretion could be valid. In terms of the neutral term 'it', if I'm not mistaken (I'm not native english speaker), is seen as offensive because it is never used for persons, or is there some other reason? |
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zensunni
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This is probably the best new series of the season. I am not sure whether I like it or Your Lie in April better, for currently airing shows.
This was a powerful episode and I really am not sure where the story is heading at this point. It keeps me coming back for more, that's for sure! |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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I don't think there is or ever has been any ambiguity with regard to any real-world religious literature what gender Ezekiel is. Pretty much the same with Michael. If Ezekiel is actually female in this story it is simply artistic license of the author as much as is making King Arthur a woman in FS/N. Add Ezekiel was a priest and a prophet, not an angel. |
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SonOfaMonkey
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So... this show can technically fit into the Clash of the Titans universe. 
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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Ep8: Well I guess I got my answer about Ezekiel's gender. Artemis definitely used the female pronoun for her.
Let me tell you that Church sure plays a nasty game of politics. Maria never knew what hit her. And I am pretty disappointed with Martha but I guess her weakness was fully understandable.
I have noticed that too. I would also draw attention to the different times that Maria gets emotional and gestalts, then ends up wincing due to her shoulder wound. This stuff is important to building a credible atmosphere. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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To be honest, I really don't understand how making Galfa's (apparent) future attempted rape of Maria a purely transactional matter rather than a sign of a mustache twirling villain is such an admirable narrative turn. To me, it feels like, in some important ways, the writer(s) of this show lack imagination and empathy. On the imagination front - the show is called Maria the Virgin Witch (or Maria the Pure perhaps in Japanese). Given that the show takes place in such a crude, misogynistic environment and the fact that Maria's virginity (or purity so to speak) is such a highly valued commodity, it is almost expected that the writer(s) would threaten the audience with her rape. You brought up two recent shows in KlK and SAO that are wildly popular and both used rape as sensationalist material to manipulate the audience's fears and sense of revulsion. They are not alone of course. It is a very, very commonplace theme that shows up in many different types of anime. I have my own theories on why it is so common place, but I think it has a lot to do with how the writers think they can pander to the target audience. The target audience is mostly male, and I think there is some expectation among producers/writers that a threatened rape of a woman is like the highest offense that a male can think of. Like you said, it is often used to make a bad villain into a truly vile creature (particularly when the production team endeavors to show said villain smelling the girl's hair, or licking her or running his/her hands over her body in some obscene manner). There can be numerous effects, but I think these two stand out: (1) make the villain that much worse, and (2) allow the audience to fantasize about saving the girl just in the nick of time. Those are the more "kosher" reactions anyway. But anyway, we know that this is something writers feel very comfortable putting into the work and it might even be seen as a necessary plot element in some shows in order to rile up the audience to the maximum state of intensity. So here, it was something that could be seen a mile away, and in fact, most of the viewers of the show in the ANN forums (and I believe you as well) have been predicting that someone would try to rape her for a good while. Obviously, us anime viewers don't know at this time whether Galfa will actually attempt it or if he will have some sudden crisis of conscience and tell Bernard to %$#@ off, but at this point the writing has used this completely predictable plot element as a tease to make us frightful about what will happen next episode, and wonder how Maria will get out of that jam (i.e. escape being raped). Normally, I would think she should be powerful enough to stop any man from raping her, but she is conveniently injured now so that might be used here. So, on the imagination front, I feel this is lacking a bit. I don't think they should have brought that in as a possibility. Bernard seems like such a clever schemer, are we really to believe that the most intelligent and clever way for him to defeat Maria is that he (a man of God no less) hires a lowly mercenary to rape her? Couldn't they have come up with some grand scheme whereby he manipulates everyone, including Maria, and causes her downfall in some masterstroke? As for the issue of empathy, I suppose you could say that the show is being intentionally written in a way to highlight the misogyny and the lowly status of women in those dark times, but I feel like there could be more hope or at least depth of character. I've complained before, for example, about how the other witches seem like pitiful tools, existing primarily for their sexual uses and not much else - we've gotten minimal depth with them - and then there is Galfa's girl, who plays the part of the sneaky wench/prostitute - I don't think I've seen any redeeming qualities indicated in her. There was that other woman who somehow "belonged" to that knight that Galfa defeated. He seduced and bedded her, and then after that knight lost she disappeared, another plot tool. Maria, Ezekiel, and Artemis are portrayed in a slightly more complicated manner than the other women, but still, Artemis and Maria are routinely displayed in a highly sexualized manner. In fact, it is kind of odd but Maria seems more sexualized to me than Artemis, despite the fact that the latter is a succubus who apparently spends most nights having wild sex with random soldiers. We've had so many scenes of Maria naked, sometimes asleep or bathing, while someone (or just the audience) watches her. There's a kind of leering quality to it that I don't think can be ignored, although her "purity" always remains intact of course. I say all of that to bring up the point that I don't feel like this show effectively empathizes with the women of its society. Although Maria is the heroine, even she is not often cast in the best light. She comes across often as loud, obnoxious, hard-headed, and irrational. Unfortunately, I feel like we still haven't seen much growth from her, despite the presence of Joseph, who is this sort of saintly, idealized boy who loves her unconditionally. So we've spent all this time seeing women as sexual objects in so many different ways, and seeing Maria's innocence being portrayed both as extremely valuable and a deep personal flaw of hers. And then we are building to this climax of someone trying to rape her to shut her up. I don't know, I feel like I would have preferred the build-up and climax being more along the lines of Maria personally growing as she confronts (and acknowledges) the challenges of her ideals and then seeing her chart some new course as a result of that growth. Maybe that can still happen, but we are running out of episodes here 
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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Tact is much more important than "imagination" when dealing with rape. From my perspective. I don't have any desire for Maria the Virgin Witch to be "imaginative" with this looming plot point, it just needs to deliver on it tastefully. Less is more when it comes to depictions of rape, absolutely.
As for the characterization of Maria, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I find her to be an extremely sympathetic and well-realized character that the story is 1000% empathetic toward, just as it is toward her polar opposite in Galfa. At no point has the show been remotely interested in the objectification of women. |
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jroa
Posts: 537 |
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I believe the mere presence of scenes with nudity does not equal sexual objectification, other than in a preemptive equation that I'd increasingly dismiss as too simplistic and superficial.
Personally speaking, I've seen plenty of other shows that try to avoid directly displaying human skin yet still carry out a far, far more blatant and misogynistic objectification of their female characters than anything in Maria the Virgin Witch. I've found this series to be quite restrained and, more importantly, respectful of its female protagonist in comparison. Which is especially notable considering the subject matter itself is definitely sexually charged. That is not to deny there is a small amount of fanservice at work, but it's absolutely treated with a different focus and not as the primary attraction, compared to what is regularly served up in any stereotypical harem show (and we have numerous examples of that this season). Perhaps if the show was truly going wild with this it would get more eyeballs watching, sadly, but I'm glad it hasn't gone that route. I think Bernard's actually going for a two-sided approach here, which isn't exactly unique but still qualifies as relatively sophisticated. He's attacking Maria's base of support with manipulation and preaching, which is dangerously reducing their trust in her, while also trying to set up a direct physical assault on her person, sexual or otherwise. Galfa might not go through with it, I hope, but even that wouldn't necessarily ruin Bernard's plan. At least not by itself. What ChibiKangaroo calls a "lack of imagination" would be more properly described as a certain degree of predictability, in my opinion, but that is not necessarily bad. I'm actually having a lot of fun seeing how the different pieces of the puzzle are gradually fitting together and it's caused me to wonder about revisiting some of the earlier episodes. As for the question of rape...I'm not inherently interested in such a brutal act per se nor the apparent threat of it, but I happen to agree with the reviewer. I'd tend to prefer the way the show has been handling the concept so far, compared to what anime and much of mainstream fiction have historically done with it. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I understand the other points you are trying to make, but I think this is a huge blind-spot. |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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Are you guys missing the fact that Bernard had no idea of commissioning the rape of Maria until he learned that doing so would strip her of her powers? To him this is just a means to a very convenient end -- although the guy is a total bastard there is no reason to believe that he was doing it for the prurient purpose.
As for Galfa he seemed to be content to leave her alone until he got his orders otherwise. Maria is a powerful witch -- any normal mortal attempting it is going to be at bigger risk than she is unless he manages to pull off something very tricky. |
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