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I'll watch as long as its not a series of terrible things happening to unlikable characters like Fate/Zero that makes it impossible for me to care about anything.

So more F/SN (or something new entirely) and less F/Z even if the format is a little more F/Z.

kotelo_ wrote:

Again with the manly heroes thing... I'm done with this heteropatriarchal Fate propaganda.

Uhm.... what? Jeanne and Mordred are in the top tier as far as power go in this thing.

FilthyCasual wrote:

kotelo_ wrote:

Again with the manly heroes thing... I'm done with this heteropatriarchal Fate propaganda.

At least wait for the windmill to be built first before you tilt at it.

AksaraKishou wrote:

I think it has to do with the Male = Power thing in legends. Couple that with the need for strong servants and you can guess who Mages prefer when using catalysts.

Also:

>heteropatriarchal

RIP Mo-san.

DmonHiro wrote:

Uhm.... what? Jeanne and Mordred are in the top tier as far as power go in this thing.

Lol at all these posts taking this seriously. If this is the kotelo I know, he's a big Fate/ fan that's using (hyperbolic?) irony to poke fun at/ mock some of the language that's been used when ANN forum members (or even editorial) discuss the Fate/franchise.

Jokes aside, anyone who has read or is familiar with the LN can confirm if this is another sexist piece of trash like Fate/Zero where the female characters are tools with no agency/only there to be fridged and provide manpain? FZ left a sour taste in my mouth, I'm still salty about the treatment of female characters in that show.

Airiiin wrote:

Jokes aside, anyone who has read or is familiar with the LN can confirm if this is another sexist piece of trash like Fate/Zero where the female characters are tools with no agency/only there to be fridged and provide manpain? FZ left a sour taste in my mouth, I'm still salty about the treatment of female characters in that show.

No, that's not the case.

just as the reviewer said, so far I am only enjoying this series as a competent action show. on another note, I have become perplexed as to why netflix sniped this title for the west as well seeing how rich it is in anime tropes and fanservice antics. I can understand how little witch academia and kakegurui can become a hit among non-otaku audiences, but apocrypha though. makes me wonder if they were only really interested in monopolizing it for japan in order to lucrate out of otaku audiences and the western rights were just an added bonus (or reversely, the PC force them to buy them as well)

Airiiin wrote:

Jokes aside, anyone who has read or is familiar with the LN can confirm if this is another sexist piece of trash like Fate/Zero where the female characters are tools with no agency/only there to be fridged and provide manpain? FZ left a sour taste in my mouth, I'm still salty about the treatment of female characters in that show.

Sexist? You're reaching pretty far there. If it were sexist, there wouldn't be so many flawed or revolting male characters like a psycho murderer, an unscrupulous assassin preacher, or a holier-than-thou golden asshat. Surely there wouldn't be any strong female characters either? Like Kiritsugu's mentor who was proud of him for shooting down that plane full of zombies so it wouldn't land, even if she was still on it (essentially sacrificing herself and accepting it for the greater good). Rin even got a moment when she saved those kids from that murderer guy, all because of her own drive and intelligence as a mage.

If you wanna talk sexist anime, just look around, but Fate/Zero is not sexist.

Airiiin wrote:

FZ left a sour taste in my mouth, I'm still salty about the treatment of female characters in that show.

FZ was supposed to leave a sour taste in your mouth about pretty much everything. It wasn't just the female charatcers that got treated like shit in FZ. Everyone did.

Yazu13 wrote:

Fate/Zero is not sexist.

Let's see:

-Saber: No complaints here, she has a character of her own, has her own arc that doesn't revolve around a man, a good character.

-Rin: Like you said good, but she's such a minor character. Same with Sakura and Illya.

-Natalia: Coold, badass, her life doesn't revolve around a man BUT her only purpose in the story is to be stuffed into the fridge to give Kiritsugu mainpain, which is deeply problematic.

-Iri and Maiya: Characters whose only purpose on the story is supporting the man they love. Have zero agency of their own. Iri had her friendship with Saber plot line to slighlty redeem herself, but in the end both Iri and Maya were puppets, tools for the male cast to use in order to achieve their goals.

-Sola-Ui: A shallow, one-dimensional character who is only there to lust after Lancer and provide mainpain to Kayneth. She's supposed to be a good magus, isn't she? But she's reduced to "the chick lusting after the hunk".

-Rin's mom: The worst offender because this is a character that could have been great and interesting. A woman struggling between her love for her husband and the fact that said husband took her daughter away. But nope, again her only purpose is to be Tokiomi's wife, Kariya's unattainable object of desire, and in the end she's assaulted by him and ends ups getting brain damage. The narrative never focus on her.

-Shirley: Another bland character whose entire purpose revolves around men and then dies. Boring.

So in the end Saber is good and Natalia is good but problematic, but most of the female cast aren't fleshed out, don't have their own goals, are very passive, they don't have a life outside the male characters. Almost every female character in this show only exist to support the men. How is that not sexist, treating its female characters like objects to be used as opposed to the male cast, who gets their own story arcs and narrative?

As a woman, this is not what I want to see. It's not about flawless strong female characters or anything like that (no one wants that), I want female characters who have their own narrative, their own stories, development, characters whose only purpose is not to complement the male characters. Female characters who aren't just plot devices and whose reason d'etre isn't a man.

DmonHiro wrote:

kotelo_ wrote:

Again with the manly heroes thing... I'm done with this heteropatriarchal Fate propaganda.

Uhm.... what? Jeanne and Mordred are in the top tier as far as power go in this thing.

Its more like Karna>>>Achilies >>>>>>Everyone else

Well, I respect diversity in opinion, and if you don't like certain details about a particular show, that's fine. Keep in mind however that calling a show "homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-semetic, etc." when it doesn't fit your taste wouldn't be very productive.
Please articulate yourself on a higher level in this regards in all manners of life, as you'll benefit greatly from it. If you believe some character could have been written better by doing "x" then state that opinion rather than making allegations.

Also remember that often people will disagree with you, especially in art as opinions are usually highly subjective. By making claims that a show is "x-ist" you're also indirectly taking a jab at anyone who likes that particular show, and thus you'd usually only create contempt against yourself, which again doesn't benefit anyone.

As for the show, I find it interesting. Jeanne d'Arc seem to be the main character of this one, (with her at the helm as the detective,) and it's turning into quite the mystery series. Anime smile

Just because a show is sexist doesn't mean people who like the show are sexist. Same with racism, transphobia, and anything like that.

It is possible to go too far when criticizing a show, and imply or outright state negative things about those who like it, but simply commenting about a show being sexist or whatever isn't that, and insisting it is simply shuts down criticism of the show.

Airiiin wrote:

-Iri and Maiya: Characters whose only purpose on the story is supporting the man they love. Have zero agency of their own. Iri had her friendship with Saber plot line to slighlty redeem herself, but in the end both Iri and Maya were puppets, tools for the male cast to use in order to achieve their goals.

I think Irisviel is too submissive for my taste, but I think that's her choice.
It takes agency away from the character to call her a puppet.
As a homunculus she was going to be forced into the Grail war anyway whether she liked it or not, so she seems to be making the best of her situation.

Quote:

-Sola-Ui: A shallow, one-dimensional character who is only there to lust after Lancer and provide mainpain to Kayneth. She's supposed to be a good magus, isn't she? But she's reduced to "the chick lusting after the hunk".

well, she was being bewitched by Diermut's love spot at the time.

I think that your argument could be interpreted as saying this:
a show with limited time, budget and scope depicts different female characters with different motivations, circumstances and importance to the overall plot = the entire program is sexist

Fate/Zero is adaptation of a book, so you may want to look at the original source novel to see if there's any extra details of interest on female characters there (I haven't read it)

Mikasa_su_casa wrote:

well, she was being bewitched by Diermut's love spot at the time.

Which she knew and did willingly. At least in the novel.

People, keep the discussion to Fate/Apocrypha. We are almost at a page of Fate/Zero talk.

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