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Fate/Apocrypha (TV).


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Yttrbio
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Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:36 am Reply with quote
If you're going to ask questions like that, you might ask "why does poking the ceiling, making it glow, and then dematerializing the sleeping mages save them?" I think the answer to all your questions is "a wizard did it."
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:56 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:


No, her concern had to do with the fact that transforming is destroying his body. Notice how much blacker his hand gets this episode.

On another note, when the hell did Caules get on the gardens? Last we saw he was on the plane with his sister.


Perhaps I've misremembered, but I'm sure she said something to the effect that he cannot transform more than twice because the command seals he has somehow keep the transformation process from completely destroying him each time. Now that he has no seals remaining, something has to give. Considering the third seal was to boost him even further to withstand Karna's final attack, I'm inclined to think that's the case.

Not sure about Caules either, but his plane might have been shot down during the big duel between Achilles and Charon. If that's the case, his sister is also in the floating fortress. Otherwise he could have infiltrated the fortress through some clandestine method.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:41 am Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
Perhaps I've misremembered, but I'm sure she said something to the effect that he cannot transform more than twice because the command seals he has somehow keep the transformation process from completely destroying him each time. Now that he has no seals remaining, something has to give. Considering the third seal was to boost him even further to withstand Karna's final attack, I'm inclined to think that's the case.


Yeah, her "two more times" estimate was for how many times before his body gave out.

She did note an oddity in his command seals, but like I said it was that they don't completely disappear after he uses them.

Harleyquin wrote:
Not sure about Caules either, but his plane might have been shot down during the big duel between Achilles and Charon. If that's the case, his sister is also in the floating fortress. Otherwise he could have infiltrated the fortress through some clandestine method.


When he showed up I thought that maybe I'd missed a scene with the plane going down. It'd be too important not to show that. And if he could easily infiltrate the gardens like that then they wouldn't need the planes in the first place.

Also on the character front, I would assume that the novels had more scenes between Achilles and Atalanta to make their battle a bit more poignant. But the anime at least did show Achilles had a great affection for her and that he was upset about her change, so it still works that he'd go to such lengths to save her from herself.

But I feel that Seig's desire to protect and be with Jeanne was pretty abrupt. Obviously they have spent a lot of time together but Seig's kind of a lame duck emotionally and didn't indicate any particularly strong affection for her.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:39 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:

Yeah, her "two more times" estimate was for how many times before his body gave out.

She did note an oddity in his command seals, but like I said it was that they don't completely disappear after he uses them

When he showed up I thought that maybe I'd missed a scene with the plane going down. It'd be too important not to show that. And if he could easily infiltrate the gardens like that then they wouldn't need the planes in the first place.

Also on the character front, I would assume that the novels had more scenes between Achilles and Atalanta to make their battle a bit more poignant. But the anime at least did show Achilles had a great affection for her and that he was upset about her change, so it still works that he'd go to such lengths to save her from herself.

But I feel that Seig's desire to protect and be with Jeanne was pretty abrupt. Obviously they have spent a lot of time together but Seig's kind of a lame duck emotionally and didn't indicate any particularly strong affection for her.


Perhaps the peculiar nature of Sieg's command seals will explain itself before the show finishes. One thing I do remember is that Ruler and Charon were heavily emphasising their diagnosis of Sieg's condition being based on conjecture. They don't really know either what's up with him as a Master. I'm still plumping for the "something is going to happen to Sieg" now that he's used three Seals (Human Masters who ran out usually have trouble with rebellious or discontent servants)

Thanks to all the flashy fights between the Servants, the plane bearing the two Masters would have closed the distance enough that any hit on the planes could send them both crashing into the Gardens but allowing them to stay alive. My pet theory is the scene is either shown in future episodes or it was cut entirely and someone forgot to redo Caules's entry into the Gardens.

The scenes between Achilles and Atalanta tend to be understated in this adaptation. Without reading the book to check for myself, I couldn't tell either if some scenes didn't make it into the adaptation. There are enough subtle hints showing Achilles greatly respects Atalante and a bit more.

Sieg is emotionally stunted and dense, but he's not stupid. That scene with him, Ruler and Astolfo at the airport wasn't meant to be filler. Past episodes have made pains to stress him ruminating over his existence and the nature of relationships. It's a long flight to catch the Gardens so the situation and his experiences to date should have given enough time for Sieg to decide what he wants.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:45 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
[The scenes between Achilles and Atalanta tend to be understated in this adaptation. Without reading the book to check for myself, I couldn't tell either if some scenes didn't make it into the adaptation. There are enough subtle hints showing Achilles greatly respects Atalante and a bit more.


According to TV Tropes spoiler[because Achilles's dad knew Atalanta from the Argo and the boar hunt, Achilles grew up on stories of her heroics. He idolized her and she was his childhood crush. And that's adorable.]

Harleyquin wrote:
It's a long flight to catch the Gardens so the situation and his experiences to date should have given enough time for Sieg to decide what he wants.


If true it would be his emotional climax and definitely a scene that should have been included.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:53 pm Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:


According to TV Tropes spoiler[because Achilles's dad knew Atalanta from the Argo and the boar hunt, Achilles grew up on stories of her heroics. He idolized her and she was his childhood crush. And that's adorable.]

If true it would be his emotional climax and definitely a scene that should have been included.


Not sure what TV Tropes has to do with this, but there's enough in Greek mythology to give an answer for those who are dying from curiosity. There have been at least two scenes featuring the pair which suggested something between them (less from Atalante) thus far in this adaptation.

As for Sieg, he only ever does the typically cliched and trope-weary dramatic poses and scenes when he's transformed so far. For everything else he seems to take a good deal of time to reflect before coming to his conclusion. Astolfo prods him on when he can, otherwise it would take even longer.
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Harleyquin



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:21 am Reply with quote
#23

The anticipated Mordred vs. Semiramis duel doesn't quite hit the heights of the previous two episodes, but it does remove another pair of servants from the frame leaving just Amakusa and Shakespeare for the Reds with Astolfo and Jeanne for the Blacks.

The mistress of poisons certainly put up a fierce fight. Inside her throne room and with all her available cards she would have beaten Mordred handily had Shishigou not intervened. I'm guessing the Hydra tooth he picked up in episode one was used to make the antidote injection that got Mordred on her feet again.

A Pyrrhic victory (it's been the trend over the last few episodes) but this pair goes out smiling. Final cameo from Blue Saber with the well-worn Caliburn scene thrown in for good measure.

For a weakling, Shakespeare is very troublesome when the conditions are right for him to exploit his sole weapon to its maximum effect. I have no idea where Gilles came from (Shakespeare claims to have summoned him, but there's nothing in the rules that allows him to get away with that) but I suspect Sieg needs to intervene soon or the otherwise invincible Ruler servant is going to have her head separated from her shoulders.

I wonder how long it takes before the Gardens collapse. Unless Mordred messed up (not for the first time if so) Semiramis out of the picture should lead to the structure breaking up or losing control.
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:31 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
Final cameo from Blue Saber with the well-worn Caliburn scene thrown in for good measure.


And Merlin.

So Harleyquin, looks like you owe Mordred and Shishigo an apology. You were so adamant that they were only out for themselves and would be willing to turn on each other for their goals but instead they chose to go out side by side.

Funny to see Saber Giles, especially once he starts making Caster Giles faces.
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Harleyquin



Joined: 29 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:02 am Reply with quote
Vaisaga wrote:
Harleyquin wrote:
Final cameo from Blue Saber with the well-worn Caliburn scene thrown in for good measure.


And Merlin.

So Harleyquin, looks like you owe Mordred and Shishigo an apology. You were so adamant that they were only out for themselves and would be willing to turn on each other for their goals but instead they chose to go out side by side.

Funny to see Saber Giles, especially once he starts making Caster Giles faces.


I don't retract what I said because it was a test of their relationship had they won the Grail. Despite what Shishigou said, I didn't see another master nearby to allow Mordred to contract again so the offer was moot anyway.
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Harleyquin



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:16 am Reply with quote
#24

Penultimate episode, so I was expecting at least a couple more action set pieces. I got to see one towards the end, but the contest of wills at the start isn't easy to get into if one isn't fully invested in the franchise and everything that has been seen to date.

Amakusa's grand plan of salvation finally explained in full using plain language this week. I don't really buy the idea that being reduced to a thought construct with no solid form really equates to salvation, first impression I got was being reduced to an entity slightly better than that of a robot. Just as well Sieg and Jeanne disagreed with him then.

As expected, Sieg turns up in the nick of time before Ruler gives up the ghost completely. I have no idea what she pulled out to damage the Grail (I don't play Fate/Grand Order and never intend to) but it certainly had the desired effect of weakening Amakusa enough for Sieg's combined powers to apply the finishing blow. Jeanne's last vision and the scene from episode #1 have spoiled what is going to happen next week, so it's just as well I'm not going to see that episode for a while.

The visuals for the action scenes will divide opinion, but there's a lot of work that goes behind that particular visual style and full credit should be given where it's due.

I'm not quite sure why Sieg could only manifest those powers only after the Grail was damaged, but there are enough clues in the episode to give me a theory to work with. Regardless, next week is the final episode for what has been for me a thoroughly enjoyable watch over the last six months.[/img]
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Vaisaga



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:49 pm Reply with quote
Harleyquin wrote:
I have no idea what she pulled out to damage the Grail (I don't play Fate/Grand Order and never intend to)


In FGO she only has Luminosite Eternelle for her Noble Phantasm so it has nothing to do with that.

La Pucelle is the embodiment of her being burned at the stake.

I'm actually not that upset she's gone. I never liked the idea of something happening between her and Seig so it's a bit of a relief that things ended where they did.

The fight between Seig and Shiro was pretty good. Certainly looked better than anything in episode 22. Having a set up similar to the final fight of Heaven's Feel also helps.
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Izanagi009



Joined: 20 Oct 2014
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:56 am Reply with quote
My ultimate issue with Fate/Apocrypha is still a rushed pace and lack of character development

The fact that the Achilles and Atalanta relation isn't that well told in the few scenes they have or the fact that the Sieg/Astolfo/Jeanne relationship is so limp and lacking in tension or even the fact that the Karna/Siegfried rivalry wasn't explained or used often is illustrative of this issue. I also find most of the characters flat and static with Mordred having rushed development in her final episode

Regardless, i'm calling this show a bit of a bust on a quality level. It may have some enjoyable fights and moments but it still ultimately is not a good show
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Vaisaga



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:19 pm Reply with quote
A good enough finale as any. Shiro and Semi make peaceful exits despite being the main bad guys, but then I remembered they never did anything particularly evil.

There's some stuff I'm not really a fan of but overall it was a pretty good entry into the franchise.
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Harleyquin



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:37 am Reply with quote
Late enough, but as expected the final episode simply closed up everything (while leaving what I think is a huge plot hole behind). Closing the circle with the post credits scene and Rider's final monologue is a nice touch from my point of view.

Franchise fans who have continued to devote their time and resources since the switch to console probably enjoy this series best. Those who stopped before that but remember the whole thing which started it all don't lose too much out of the experience regardless. Obviously adaptations are going to bear scrutiny and comparison to their source, but it's been hugely entertaining and there's no reason why it will be forgotten over time.

Fate/Extra airs later this month so more fun for the console fans to enjoy themselves with. I'm giving it a pass since I've had my fill for now and have the Heaven's Feel movie to look forward to next month.
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