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ANNCast - FRANXXly my Darling, I Don't Give A Damn


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CrowLia



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
Posts: 5286
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:31 pm Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:

But APE are not watching these kids, they have left it to Nana and Hatchi,


Even if you were to buy into the conceit that APE would have no way of knowing Hiro's memories returned (even though Alpha seemed to know what the kids were up to before crashing the wedding), APE definitely knows Nana's memories are being stirred back. She's supposedly had to go through another reindoctrination, and given how Alpha says it, it's not even a particularly rare thing
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DuskyPredator
It...it's not like I post for you or anything!It...it's not like I post for you or anything!


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 13324
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:59 pm Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
Even if you were to buy into the conceit that APE would have no way of knowing Hiro's memories returned (even though Alpha seemed to know what the kids were up to before crashing the wedding), APE definitely knows Nana's memories are being stirred back. She's supposedly had to go through another reindoctrination, and given how Alpha says it, it's not even a particularly rare thing


Nope. Wrong on that count. Alpha in no way implies that he knows that Nana is having returned memories, his assessment was just that she was having a return of puberty, something we knew from the Girl vs Boy is what they call certain illogical actions characterised when these kids would become aware of certain things. The case Alpha just has to be aware of is that people can over time return to being pubescent, that those need to be programmed out, not that Nana has had a prolonged watching of things have started to return her memories.

And does Alpha know what they were up to with the wedding? He knows anything like that is banned, how would he know what a wedding was. Please point to the part that specifically has Alpha knows what they were doing with the wedding, because I am getting really tired of things the audience is meant to anticipate (such as knowing what a wedding even is) to character motivation and knowledge.

And calling what APE knows as conceit, is not addressing any of the fact within the show that I explained. It is ignorance of not paying attention to world building. No wonder someone would have been bored in the show if you did not pick up that so many scenes were important in world building. Like thinking that "This is a beach episode, beach episodes are just for lazy fanservice, so I am going to tune out".
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Sajuukkhar



Joined: 24 Jul 2013
Posts: 178
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:37 pm Reply with quote
JacobC wrote:
And yet, they knew that Mitsuru and Kokoro had sex once?

Except they didn't, at no point does APE make mention of knowing Misturu and Kokoro had sex. The whole reason they mind wiped Mitsuru and Kokoro was because of Kokoro being attracted to Mitsuru, and wanting to have a baby. There is nothing to indicate that APE knew they managed to do the deed.

JacobC wrote:
Hiro and Zero Two are not remotely secretive about their shared past, even down to recreating her childhood storybook together and strewing it all over the floor. The evidence for their memory resurgence is everywhere. If they're watching these kids at all, which ostensibly they are, APE should know something's up.

APE doesn't watch them, at all. Nana and Hatchi do. APE doesn't keep personal tabs on all 111+ plantations and their parasite squads, and we KNOW from previous episodes that, due to Dr Franxx, they know even less about the 13 squad then they do the others.

Also, APE doesn't know Hiro was the one who met Zero Two in the past, or even that he got his memory erased, Dr Franxx kept that hidden.
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arromdee



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 69
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:12 am Reply with quote
The lesbian parents study is worthless as far as proving anything useful. According to your own links, they corrected for educational and financial background, but they did not correct for the fact that the children are all wanted, by definition. In fact, your own first link explicitly says that one possible explanation of the results is that the children are wanted. In order to demonstrate that lesbian parents are as good as heterosexual parents, you need to compare them to heterosexual parents who are similarly situated.

You mention Handmaid's Tale, but Margaret Atwood is not liked by ferminists right now.

Also, I am puzzled as to why you would think that a series from Japan has anything to do with a Christian movement that opposes atheists, considering that Japan isn't even Christian.
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
Posts: 12450
Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:00 am Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
^I think you completely missed the point of what Jake was saying. At no point does he find it unbelievable that Kokoro and Mitsuru will recover their memories, it's pretty obvious they will. He's criticizing the show's writing for making the villains so utterly incompetent at their supposed evildoing. This is a supposedly uber controlled dystopian society with an authoritarian government that can easily wipe people's memories, yet they not only decide to reinsert their newly reindoctrinated subjects into the ideologically contaminated group -a group they could've easily reindoctrinated too, but for some random reason chose not to- they don't even take off the bloody rings. If they can recognize the transgressive wedding ceremony, surely they would know what the rings represent in that ritual, yet they are conveniently left on. This is extremely stupid writing, and that's what Jake is saying

I should have posted "I agree with Jacob on the memory erasure SNAFU. As such an example, here is a scene that highlights why I agree with Jacob".
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arromdee



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:34 am Reply with quote
Despite Jacob's claim that nobody wants to do this, there's a long tradition, both real and fictional, of organizations controlling their members by not letting them marry and raise children, including monks and nuns, or in fiction, the Jedi. Governments can't do this because they would run out of population, but in fiction where children can be created there's no bar to governments doing it too. (And both elite organizations and governments can come close by taking children away from their parents, and that has happened too.)
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NeverConvex



Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 834
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:20 am Reply with quote
arromdee wrote:
Despite Jacob's claim that nobody wants to do this, there's a long tradition, both real and fictional, of organizations controlling their members by not letting them marry and raise children, including monks and nuns, or in fiction, the Jedi. Governments can't do this because they would run out of population, but in fiction where children can be created there's no bar to governments doing it too. (And both elite organizations and governments can come close by taking children away from their parents, and that has happened too.)


Not sure about 'running out of population.' There have certainly been modern cases of governments attempting to micromanage peoples' ability to raise children. China's long-standing (though now defunct) one child policy is a notable example.
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Hellsoldier



Joined: 21 Jun 2013
Posts: 466
Location: Porto,Portugal,Europe,Earth,Sol
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:05 pm Reply with quote
Grimvice wrote:
Right on, more upper middle-class white Americans getting mad and projecting American politics onto a cartoon made by a country that has nothing to do with the worldviews America has.

Darling in the Franxx has a fair amount of problems, in fact a lot of problems, but the show isn't even done yet and it's a little extreme to say it's propaganda.

Why not just wait it out before giving full judgement?

I also have to wonder if the writers and animators of the show are confused and anxious because a bunch of westerners are saying their series is doing something wrong on a moral level.


Japan has an LGBT population, and an LGBT culture, with some elements that predate Westernization. Also, has women who believe they are more than breeding machines.

Objection Overuled.
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arromdee



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 69
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:41 pm Reply with quote
Hellsoldier wrote:

Japan has an LGBT population, and an LGBT culture, with some elements that predate Westernization. Also, has women who believe they are more than breeding machines.

Objection Overuled.


But Japan doesn't have the religious right that at least half the Anncast episode is about. Japan is only 2.3% Christian at all, never mind the specific kind of Christian that Jacob has experienced and keeps associating the show with.
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mbanu



Joined: 11 Jan 2010
Posts: 147
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:00 pm Reply with quote
Interesting podcast! Thanks for the conversation.

In the podcast you mentioned the leftist who wants to abolish gender and children as being a conservative bogeyman; however, I know people who hold these views. Smile They just didn't develop as a package, but in chunks.

The anti-child stance usually comes from getting involved in the "childfree" movement, although with a few older folks it is through an interest in overpopulation, and of course there are some who simply have a distaste for children but would prefer for it to seem like something more rational.

I think the limiting factor is that an abolishment of gender roles is connected to old-fashioned 2nd-wave feminism, which is very unhip right now, compared to the 3rd wave that is less interested in abolishing gender roles and more interested in simply having gender roles exist as a personal choice rather than as a community expectation. Being called a TERF is a good way to lose a lot of status in many communities, so unless you run in circles where you know a bunch of older radfems, you might never meet someone who admits to those views.

Has anyone tried comparing the show to [email protected]? I'm curious how much of the tone is due to the personal vision of the director, and as far as I'm aware that's his other big show.
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johan.eriksson.9003



Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 202
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 2:15 am Reply with quote
arromdee wrote:
Hellsoldier wrote:

Japan has an LGBT population, and an LGBT culture, with some elements that predate Westernization. Also, has women who believe they are more than breeding machines.

Objection Overuled.


But Japan doesn't have the religious right that at least half the Anncast episode is about. Japan is only 2.3% Christian at all, never mind the specific kind of Christian that Jacob has experienced and keeps associating the show with.


There is a lot of overlap between the religious right as we know it here in the west and the Japanese right-wing. If you read Jacob's twitter-rant on the subject he lays out in great detail just how these positions are both similar and different.
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:03 am Reply with quote
What I don't get is why Kokoro/Mitsuru got to be the first couple to be shown sleeping together and getting married. I think it may have been implied that Zero Two/Hiro slept together. However, the romantic developments that Kokoro/Mitsuru had I think should have happened to the lead couple first.
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fastghosthunter



Joined: 31 May 2018
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:03 am Reply with quote
I can't believe there are people in this thread claiming that you can't understand Franxx because "you aren't Japanese". As if the Japanese are some sort of unknowable political entity with absolutely no political parallels to American politics. I thought Japanese regressivism has been thoroughly documented at this point, from a Japanese party literally trying to re-enact the Japanese imperial state to the fact that the highly publicized decline in birth rate that could potentially be tied to the very strict immigration policies.

Franxx, outside of being a trigger show is incredibly unremarkable, and I find myself agreeing with another poster insofar as this show is substantially boosted in viewership by studio triggers track record and the incited political or societal messages hidden throughout. All despite the fact that the narrative is incoherent.

It is hinted during the first few episodes that the ability to pilot the franxx is due to sexual compatibility but ultimately that is thrown out the window once you realize that Ichigo "only has eyes for Hiro" yet she successfully pilots the franxx with Goro. Also Kokoro pilots with Futoshi whom she finds disgusting because he is fat. There are so many logical contradictions that arise with what I thought was an interesting premise that it is not even worth discussing that element of the show at this point.

I can see why fans of this show will be upset because even I find Jacob's readings into shows to be interesting yet frustrating. Similar to Devilman Crybaby where he claims the homosexual subtext to be apparent, despite the fact that I watched it start to finish in an entire sitting and still could not really understand how that could be supported from what textual evidence we are given in the show.

Despite that, I do think that hit the nail right on the head with this analysis. Beyond the love-triangles, the only thing that could be taken away from DitF is the dystopian elements and the idea that furthering the human race like Kokoro states "is the greatest thing" a person could do, and that this tradition is under assault.
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wolf10



Joined: 23 Jan 2016
Posts: 367
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:36 am Reply with quote
fastghosthunter wrote:
I can see why fans of this show will be upset because even I find Jacob's readings into shows to be interesting yet frustrating. Similar to Devilman Crybaby where he claims the homosexual subtext to be apparent, despite the fact that I watched it start to finish in an entire sitting and still could not really understand how that could be supported from what textual evidence we are given in the show.

This is a simple question, and in no way meant to imply anything about your character, but... are you a gay man? I am in no way trying to imply that straight people can't find gay subtext, but it is fairly ordinary for gay viewers to see subtext that straight viewers will insist "isn't there," and it has a lot to do with how the events depicted resonate with our own experience of the world. It's not so much a matter of going into something "looking" for the gay, as just naturally seeing it in what's depicted. Along the same lines, straight viewers often see straight romantic subtext (in otherwise non-romantic works) that gay viewers simply won't.

As I see it, Devilman in general is way gay, even if only tragically so, though I'm still not quite sure if Go Nagai meant Satan's final form as a "no homo" handwave, or just a visual expression of gay men as having some female aspect of themselves that allows them to love men. Maybe it's both.
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Chester McCool



Joined: 06 Jan 2016
Posts: 322
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:26 am Reply with quote
wolf10 wrote:
As I see it, Devilman in general is way gay, even if only tragically so, though I'm still not quite sure if Go Nagai meant Satan's final form as a "no homo" handwave, or just a visual expression of gay men as having some female aspect of themselves that allows them to love men. Maybe it's both.


I would argue those people will find subtext that isn't there out of desperation for representation, making their claims based more on emotion than logic. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. It especially holds true for foreign media where cultural differences account for a lot. To this day westerners insist Baron Ashura was transgendered, despite Go Nagai saying otherwise. Or how people think Kojiro from Pokemon is gay because he crossdresses, despite the character showing attraction to women numerous times in the series and unaware of genres of Japanese comedy. So I disagree with any notion that "you have to be X to get X subtext"
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