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RyumuruJireyes wrote:

I didn't think I was victim blaming? I was just trying to say we should wait until evidence and not accusations present themselves before this man's life was destroyed..and again don't get me wrong if he did do all of these horrid things then maybe he shouldn't be at cons but has anyone come froward with a police case? court case? anything?

I swear I am not trying to be scummy and bad I am just..voicing myself. I am not trying to victim blame this woman at all..at least I'm not trying to. And this one was just the most recent article discussing this so this is where I decided to voice my concerns.

I feel as if I should say something to this but I'm honestly as a loss for words here as to what. If Vic was already prosecuted for such actions then his behavior wouldn't have been condoned for more than a decade and his "accusers"/victims silenced? I have no idea what's being asked here.

Vic did these things and other things like it, he was confronted with his actions, he said he'd a stop and he did for awhile... as stated by Monica Rial and not refuted by Vic so I accept this as the true state of the situation... but then he didn't and this process of Vic not changing repeated more than once. Are you blaming the courts, the system, the victims or Vic here? It sounds like you want to blame someone... as long as it's not the accused.

I am honestly baffled.... do people not understand that "once upon a time" people with power and influence got preferential treatment because that was just how things worked? We're now in the age of "Wait, you mean we don't have to take it anymore?" and there's really no way the law can process such things.

I mean, it is designed to maintain status quo and that was one of those.

SWAnimefan wrote:

The way tension is mounting in the community, I think we might be seeing a class action lawsuit against Vic real soon.

I'm not going to go into the gritty details but I assure you, you do not understand what a Class Action Lawsuit is and how they work.

Psycho 101 wrote:

pirateaddict wrote:

Definitely this, Vic has apologised, promised to change his behaviour and has now faced numerous accusations. We'll never know everything about what went on behind the scenes. He's been disinvited by many cons and already lost two roles. There's no doubt after all this publicity he'll be closely monitored. I hope Vic apologises to his fellow VAs and if handled well he should be able to continue his career even if it takes a while for things to die down.

So you think a simple apology is enough? Oh he promised to change his beahvior, how wonderful. How does that excuse his behavior? If any normal Joe Smoe acted in a fraction of this manner at a normal job you get fired. How should he be any different? It continues to blow my mind how many people seem to thank some simple apology (which so far have been half assed) excuses this sort of behavior. At what point is an apology not enough? Would he have to had raped a few of these girls before many of his supporters said that was "not cool" and an apology was not enough? I mean seriously the amount of people willing to just excuse this away and sweep it under the rug is how we got to this point to begin with.

This is the exact point I keep trying to bring up with people on Twitter. HR departments have a vastly higher standard that what many people realize. Many never have to deal with HR. What has happened now is that we know for sure that HR at Rooster Teeth has decided to move on from Vic. And unless a court case happens, we will never see what the official cause of the termination was. That is just how HR works.

macattack wrote:

Bebop56210 wrote:

I wonder if funimation has/had security cams in this "lobby" and if they archived footage from whenever this would've happened. Should be easy enough to prove or disprove this that way.

When Vic Mignogna was voice-directing Juni Taisen Zodiac War there was film of him greeting his cast members as they finished their roles (there was a LOT of death in that series). Heck, I think he may have even been the one to post said videos.

One must wonder the true purpose of that camera now...

Psycho 101 wrote:

So you think a simple apology is enough? Oh he promised to change his beahvior, how wonderful. How does that excuse his behavior? If any normal Joe Smoe acted in a fraction of this manner at a normal job you get fired. How should he be any different? It continues to blow my mind how many people seem to thank some simple apology (which so far have been half assed) excuses this sort of behavior. At what point is an apology not enough? Would he have to had raped a few of these girls before many of his supporters said that was "not cool" and an apology was not enough? I mean seriously the amount of people willing to just excuse this away and sweep it under the rug is how we got to this point to begin with.

I am probably going to get cut down for responding to this, but how are we supposed to believe the moderators are acting with any impartiality when you post things like this?

You've already made up your mind that Vic is guilty. (Full disclosure, I think Vic is guilty of some things myself). But you are constantly removing posts defending Vic, and from the tone of the articles and the behavior of the staff everyone has already made up their minds on him, and you all want to push the narrative that he is guilty with as little opposition as possible. I know that ANN doesn't have to allow the forum to be a "free speech zone" but it makes ANN's moderators look reactionary and suspicious with this kind of behavior.

I can't come to the forums every single day. I don't know what you're classifying as "victim blaming". But without the chance to see what the other side is arguing I can't decide for myself what is victim blaming.

You are all becoming activists and turning ANN into an activist website when it is supposed to be a news site for anime in general with additional editorials and reviews. Don't become Comics Alliance for anime, please. That didn't turn out so well for them.

I made this similar comment on Vic's latest tweet and was wondering why my "following" count went down. Apparently Eric Vale blocked me. It's not like I said "This didn't happen PROVE IT" it was just a simple question, and it wasn't directed towards him. (Doesn't seem like he's following Vic either so I'm confused)

luigi-dude10 wrote:

Hope Vic sues you guys into oblivion. That's the only way you'll learn any lessons.

I hope I win the lottery next month. The good news is, I have better odds of winning the lottery.

macattack wrote:

You've already made up your mind that Vic is guilty. (Full disclosure, I think Vic is guilty of some things myself). But you are constantly removing posts defending Vic, and from the tone of the articles and the behavior of the staff everyone has already made up their minds on him, and you all want to push the narrative that he is guilty with as little opposition as possible. I know that ANN doesn't have to allow the forum to be a "free speech zone" but it makes ANN's moderators look reactionary and suspicious with this kind of behavior.

In regards to posts being removed all of the mods have made it clear what we expect. We have allowed numerous posts supporting him to stay. So the claim we're trying to push a narrative is ridiculous and simply disingenuous. We have made it clear that victim blaming will not be allowed. We've made it clear to be respectful. Majority of the posts that supported him that were removed were not even respectful to start. The new rule changes months ago made it clear we were not going to let that sort of toxic bs foster here anymore. We've also had to repeat ourselves in the various Vic threads numerous times and many users have ignored those warnings numerous times. We've also removed several posts from users blatantly insulting those who do support him as well.

As for me personally, have I made up my mind. Yes. The evidence is there in black and white. Unless you're insinuating every single person is lying. I have also witnessed his conduct, both the inappropriate contact and the diva out bursts, first hand at cons in the past as an attendee and as a gopher at the con.

macattack wrote:

I can't come to the forums every single day. I don't know what you're classifying as "victim blaming". But without the chance to see what the other side is arguing I can't decide for myself what is victim blaming.

I would think Victim Blaming is a self evident term but I will spell it out for you and everyone else. It includes any sort of statement where people suggest it is somehow the victims fault for not saying anything sooner, not saying to stop, not reporting him sooner, etc. It includes justifying his behavior by saying he's just touchy feely, he was nice to me so it's obviously not true, it was harmless, etc. Somehow diminishing the behavior or excusing it is not going to be tolerated here.

macattack wrote:

You are all becoming activists and turning ANN into an activist website when it is supposed to be a news site for anime in general with additional editorials and reviews. Don't become Comics Alliance for anime, please. That didn't turn out so well for them.

Is Vic a part of the anime fandom? Yes. Was this conduct primarily at anime conventions? Yes. So yea, pretty sure it falls under news related to anime. Another point the mods, news staff, and admin have made ad nauseam at this point.

Now, this back and forth between us is off topic to this specific article so I am going to stop it from both of us. If you wish to respond and continue then by all means PM me. Otherwise this is getting back on this specific topic.

Clearly this whole thing is a conspiracy theory to get ANN more traffic and by proxy more ad revenue. 15 years of complaints across a multitude of different websites with different ideologies and concerns, coming together at this one moment to make this website truly profitable. Zac Bertschy, you're a madman and a genius who knows how to play the long game.

. . . that's sarcasm and humor, incidentally. But about up there with what some of Mr. Mignogna's die hard supports are suggesting: that this is a "smear campaign" stemming from "Twitter NPCs" for "reasons."

Noire wrote:

Post Removed

On of the issues of this particular case is one of the ability to consent versus the desire to. Looking at complaints on Cosfu dating back to 2005; convention attendees were complaining specifically about how "hands-on" this voice actor was, especially to underage attendees. Why would those 14 and 15 year olds complain or file a report? They were fans, getting attention from their idol! Arguably uncouth and problematic attention, but attention none the less. Plus, this was happening at anime conventions, where this sort of behavior was at times not just accepted but seen as part of the culture. So even when it did make these teenagers uncomfortable, and even they felt strongly enough to make waves by reporting it over the head of security staff and convention organizers... what were you going to do then? Good luck finding an officer that would take more than a passing interest in it. After all, it was just a "misunderstanding." What was seen was a mistake, not malicious intent. And this is justhow conventions are.

So, instead (apparently), this behavior became further codified and, by proxy, accepted.

That's another worry that I have - not just that it took 15 years for the attempts to call out Vic to have any real traction outside of the rare canceled appearance or forcing the man to feel the need to give a half hearted apology, but that this sort of stuff is intertwined in the convention experience, and there's a long history of it. People are calling out Mr. Mignogna as being homophobic due to some comments during interviews and some actions that show in the best light he had issues with it being implied the characters he played were gay as it might be seen he was to; I guess we've all forgiven and forgotten the time that Sakura Con of Seattle thought the best way to be more "family friendly" was to enact rules specifically targeting its gay participants.

There's also a lot of complaints that this incident is "just piggybacking" off of the #metoo movement, but I feel the real issue is that we're not seeing a revolution on the fandom's own terms and merits. From calls that if you're not white you're only allowed to cosplay characters with your proper skin type, to if men wish to dress as a female character they are in actuality "a t***" to the belief that "con sex" is just the right pickup line away, coupled with the cults of personalities that absolutely pervade the convention scene? I'd argue the pig's back needs to be taken here and forged into it's own movement, so to speak. These things have been happening for decades. Men, women, vendors, convention staff, convention operators... there's plenty of stories there. I think it's time to stop hyper focusing on the one guy who finally got called out on his actions, and start looking at the broader picture: the environment that allows this kind of stuff to thrive.

Mod Edit just replaced some letters in a slur with asterisks

My take on this (apologies for the long post, thanks to anyone who reads it all lol):

I think in general, Vic Mignogna has a big ego and hasn't handled it well. Everyone has an ego and celebrities - especially popular ones within their industry like Vic - have particularly big ones. But I think he lets it get to his head too easily. As a Christian, I have to say that I'm ashamed because he probably has a "holier-than-thou" attitude constantly running in the back of his mind, and this combined with the fact that he's rarely been held accountable probably gave him the feeling that he can do no wrong, even if at times his conscience may have tried to stop him. Pride leads to all the other sins, after all.

Vic's untamed ego would explain why he felt like he could push physical boundaries (sexually or violently) so many times and it was always not a big deal because "he can do no wrong". Also explains why he feels like he has the right to push other people around.

There's also a chance that he really is just trying to take advantage of the situation he's in and fully understands that much of what he's done is wrong - but believing this would require exceedingly generous assumptions about what his true intentions are, and I don't think it's fair to go there.

Personally, I think the main issues of concern are the ones involving pulling hair and whispering sexual comments. This can still be partially explained by his large ego, but it's obviously a bigger concern than just "pushing the line". Unfortunately, these incidents are also the ones where we have no choice but to make a lot of assumptions about the situation (all we have is the perspective of the victim, and while the situation was obviously negative, there's a chance that from Vic's perspective it wasn't as horrendous as it currently seems). Not victim blaming though, it was bad either way! Just arguing level of severity. Obviously a running theme here is to respect other people's personal bubble at all costs.

Now, as for my main concern going forward...

Psycho 101 wrote:

So you think a simple apology is enough? Oh he promised to change his beahvior, how wonderful. How does that excuse his behavior? If any normal Joe Smoe acted in a fraction of this manner at a normal job you get fired. How should he be any different? It continues to blow my mind how many people seem to thank some simple apology (which so far have been half assed) excuses this sort of behavior. At what point is an apology not enough? Would he have to had raped a few of these girls before many of his supporters said that was "not cool" and an apology was not enough? I mean seriously the amount of people willing to just excuse this away and sweep it under the rug is how we got to this point to begin with.

Herein lies the main problem - what should be done about Vic Mignogna? And what should be done about people in this situation in general? I've heard that he should be given a slap on the wrist if anything, that he should be blacklisted and hopefully tried in court and his life basically destroyed, and everything in between! But in the court of public opinion, there are no rules. Isn't that crazy?

I know that a lot of people are fed up with the constant complaints of "witch hunts" and "reaching for pitchforks" and whatnot every time a victim opens their mouth, but I think it's a legitimate concern! It sounds like a lot of you are out for blood, and while your heart is in the right place, I'm very skeptical that society is moving in the right direction right now. Perhaps a better direction than where we were, but one that's far from perfect.

It looks to me that American culture is moving down a slippery slope. The "mob mentality" that people are afraid of is simply the chaos that the general public can potentially create when everyone bandwagons toward a specific cause - no matter how positive the movement is meant to be. It started because victims have largely been ignored for so long, but I fear the pendulum has been violently and haphazardly swung in the opposite direction. Even though Vic hasn't committed a crime (probably), I still think that "innocent until proven guilty" is an important value for society. Everyone makes mistakes, some worse than others - but if "Anonymous Annie's" loved one was harmed in some way, would you want her to be the accused's judge, jury and executioner? Of course not: there's a conflict of interests and Annie can't be nearly objective enough when all she sees is red.

The justice system - flawed as it is - keeps sentences from going wildly off the rails, and I don't believe the court of public opinion has the same ethical backbone to it. It's too random; too vindictive. It's essentially the Wild West - anything goes, and we can only hope that it lands somewhere in the vicinity of fairness and justice for the accusers, the accused, and anyone else involved.

Last edited by NeverConvex on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:51 pm; edited 2 times in total

z3r0 wrote:

People defending this man--it's TOTALLY okay. It's okay and there was no problem when this pitiful man made those (under-aged) girls and women feel uncomfortable because he is simply, Vic Mignona, voice actor extraordinaire! Smile It's perfectly fine because he is an established figure in the industry and has A LOT OF FANS that he can get away with it. The only people/pedophiles who can never get away are priests or Christians who got busted in some child porn ring the legal authorities have been conducting a close and cautious operation in the shadows on.

While I agree that a lot of people defending him seem to be doing so without much reflection, and at this point it seems pretty clear that much of the backlash against him is probably justified, it also seems like quite a stretch to compare making "(under-aged) girls and women feel uncomfortable" to owning child porn or sexually abusing children.

Nobody Nothing wrote:

Personally, I think the main issues of concern are the ones involving pulling hair and whispering sexual comments. This can still be partially explained by his large ego, but it's obviously a bigger concern than just "pushing the line". Unfortunately, these incidents are also the ones where we have no choice but to make a lot of assumptions about the situation (all we have is the perspective of the victim, and while the situation was obviously negative, there's a chance that from Vic's perspective it wasn't as horrendous as it currently seems). Not victim blaming though, it was bad either way! Just arguing level of severity. Obviously a running theme here is to respect other people's personal bubble at all costs.

I don't really follow you here. How exactly could Mignogna have a meaningfully different interpretation of his grabbing a woman by the hair in a public space, pulling her head back, and whispering sexually to her, unless she's just outright lying? I do not see what interpretive gymnastics can make that behavior not 'as horrendous as it currently seems.'

That take reminds me of some of the people earlier in the thread writing off Marchi's description as 'no worse than what happens between kids on the playground', and merely behavior not suitable for interacting with a work colleague. I just don't get that at all. In what world is it a standard pick-up line to forcibly grab a person by the head and whisper sexually to them?

I think the only two options are (A) they (Marchi/Pridemore) are lying or (B) it was a really messed up thing to do. Asserting (A) requires a clear argument for dismissing their first-hand accounts (especially taken in context with the less explicit reports about his behavior at 'con photo ops), and no one seems to have presented one thus far, so that leaves (B).

NeverConvex wrote:

Nobody Nothing wrote:

Personally, I think the main issues of concern are the ones involving pulling hair and whispering sexual comments. This can still be partially explained by his large ego, but it's obviously a bigger concern than just "pushing the line". Unfortunately, these incidents are also the ones where we have no choice but to make a lot of assumptions about the situation (all we have is the perspective of the victim, and while the situation was obviously negative, there's a chance that from Vic's perspective it wasn't as horrendous as it currently seems). Not victim blaming though, it was bad either way! Just arguing level of severity. Obviously a running theme here is to respect other people's personal bubble at all costs.

I don't really follow you here. How exactly could Mignogna have a meaningfully different interpretation of his grabbing a woman by the hair in a public space, pulling her head back, and whispering sexually to her, unless she's just outright lying? I do not see what interpretive gymnastics can make that behavior not 'as horrendous as it currently seems.'

That take reminds me of some of the people earlier in the thread reacting to writing off Marchi's description as 'no worse than what happens between kids on the playground', and merely behavior not suitable for interacting with a work colleague. I just don't get that at all. In what world is it a standard pick-up line to forcibly grab a person by the head and whisper sexually to them?

I think the only two options are (A) they (Marchi/Pridemore) are lying or (B) it was a really messed up thing to do. Asserting (A) requires a clear argument for dismissing their first-hand accounts (especially taken in context with the less explicit reports about his behavior at 'con photo ops), and no one seems to have presented one thus far, so that leaves (B).

Well, first of all - if it's 100% true, it was a really messed up thing to do in any case, so I'm not trying to argue against that. But I've been in situations before where one person's account of something sounds objectively horrible unless you were there, and circumstances that were conveniently left out paint a somewhat different picture. I don't see how this can be the case, but my main point was that Vic hasn't responded to these points in particular so I didn't want to jump to conclusions.

That being said, you're right that it doesn't seem like there's anyway these particular incidents can be seen in a more positive light.

NeverConvex wrote:

I don't really follow you here. How exactly could Mignogna have a meaningfully different interpretation of his grabbing a woman by the hair in a public space, pulling her head back, and whispering sexually to her, unless she's just outright lying? I do not see what interpretive gymnastics can make that behavior not 'as horrendous as it currently seems.'

Just to clarify, Vic has admitted to hugging people without asking at times and apologized to those he made uncomfortable by doing so. That's all. He has not admitted to or apologized for anything else, because he insists those more serious claims are flat out false. So yes, that is what Vic is saying. Some people in this thread are acting as if Vic has admitted to and apologized for every accusation, when that is simply not the case.

Nobody Nothing wrote:

It looks to me that American culture is moving down a slippery slope. The "mob mentality" that people are afraid of is simply the chaos that the general public can potentially create when everyone bandwagons toward a specific cause - no matter how positive the movement is meant to be. It started because victims have largely been ignored for so long, but I fear the pendulum has been violently and haphazardly swung in the opposite direction. Even though Vic hasn't committed a crime (probably), I still think that "innocent until proven guilty" is an important value for society. Everyone makes mistakes, some worse than others - but if "Anonymous Annie's" loved one was harmed in some way, would you want her to be the accused's judge, jury and executioner? Of course not: there's a conflict of interests and Annie can't be nearly objective enough when all she sees is red.

American culture has been like that for ages. Look up who Fatty Arbuckle was. Mob rule has always existed, and has always been awful.

Dewey Donedidit wrote:

Just to clarify, Vic has admitted to hugging people without asking at times and apologized to those he made uncomfortable by doing so. That's all. He has not admitted to or apologized for anything else, because he insists those more serious claims are flat out false. So yes, that is what Vic is saying. Some people in this thread are acting as if Vic has admitted to and apologized for every accusation, when that is simply not the case.

Right -- I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but welcome the clarification/reminder. The weight of the evidence points towards believing Marchi's and Pridemore's accounts, I think, but it does still require genuine inference, as they're not facts generally agreed upon by all parties involved.

My primary point in the post you quoted was just that, while most of the 'con photo op allegations/rumors were vague enough that it seemed natural to argue over whether reasonable people might have experienced those situations differently, or whether Mignona just has a real problem understanding 'personal space' boundaries, that does not seem to be the case at all for the allegations this thread is about. They are very clear-cut, and all relevant facts precisely stated.

This is the last time I'll post so I'll try and post this in a thoughtful way without losing my temper .

The response overall to this is HORRIFYING. Some of you seriously need to rethink things; just imagine if this was your wife, mother or god forbid your daughter. Between here and Twitter...this is exactly why women don't speak up.

And what would anyone gain from trying to blackmail him as VM's defenders are claiming? First of all...he's not Robert DeNiro; put him in a large group and most people wouldn't know who this was. And for those asking why nothing was reported, most of the accusers were underage; they couldn't do it anyway and it all depends on the statues of limitations right?

Nobody Nothing wrote:

Herein lies the main problem - what should be done about Vic Mignogna? And what should be done about people in this situation in general?

Well, first and foremost I would say the main goal of dealing with a predator is taking them out of whatever environment or position they've used to victimize people. In Mignogna's case, that would mean removing him from convention panels and other public appearances (which has already happened), being removed from the voice acting community at large considering the incidents with Jamie Marchi and other voice actors (which, again, seems to already be happening), and any other communities in which he holds sway or has used as territory for harassing or violating others.

I get where you're coming from with concerns about Vic being "ruined" - but I think it's ultimately misplaced sympathy. Vic is an adult who is facing consequences of his actions, and not a singular "mistake" or isolated incident, but multiple and repeated acts that he has refused to stop even after being confronted on it. I believe it's possible for anyone to change, and indeed I would hope that Vic takes this as an opportunity to reckon with his own choices and take steps to repent. But frankly whether he does that or not is secondary to ensuring - to the best of the powers-that-be's abilities - that he can't continue victimizing others.

Dewey Donedidit wrote:

Nobody Nothing wrote:

It looks to me that American culture is moving down a slippery slope. The "mob mentality" that people are afraid of is simply the chaos that the general public can potentially create when everyone bandwagons toward a specific cause - no matter how positive the movement is meant to be. It started because victims have largely been ignored for so long, but I fear the pendulum has been violently and haphazardly swung in the opposite direction. Even though Vic hasn't committed a crime (probably), I still think that "innocent until proven guilty" is an important value for society. Everyone makes mistakes, some worse than others - but if "Anonymous Annie's" loved one was harmed in some way, would you want her to be the accused's judge, jury and executioner? Of course not: there's a conflict of interests and Annie can't be nearly objective enough when all she sees is red.

American culture has been like that for ages. Look up who Fatty Arbuckle was. Mob rule has always existed, and has always been awful.

Yes, but I think that it's becoming a more acceptably mainstream solution to many of our problems, and it needs to be kept in check somehow.

lossthief wrote:

Nobody Nothing wrote:

Herein lies the main problem - what should be done about Vic Mignogna? And what should be done about people in this situation in general?

Well, first and foremost I would say the main goal of dealing with a predator is taking them out of whatever environment or position they've used to victimize people. In Mignogna's case, that would mean removing him from convention panels and other public appearances (which has already happened), being removed from the voice acting community at large considering the incidents with Jamie Marchi and other voice actors (which, again, seems to already be happening), and any other communities in which he holds sway or has used as territory for harassing or violating others.

I get where you're coming from with concerns about Vic being "ruined" - but I think it's ultimately misplaced sympathy. Vic is an adult who is facing consequences of his actions, and not a singular "mistake" or isolated incident, but multiple and repeated acts that he has refused to stop even after being confronted on it. I believe it's possible for anyone to change, and indeed I would hope that Vic takes this as an opportunity to reckon with his own choices and take steps to repent. But frankly whether he does that or not is secondary to ensuring - to the best of the powers-that-be's abilities - that he can't continue victimizing others.

I agree, for the most part. But as for his possibility of changing - what should the official response be? Kick him out of the entire anime industry and wait some arbitrary amount of years before checking up on his lifestyle?

I ask because in practice, I think it will be nearly impossible to give him even slightly a chance at redeeming himself without - in turn - also slightly risking him staying within the industry in some capacity. As in, either you completely avoid the risk of his behavior continuing by absolutely shunning him, or you give him a bit of a chance by, say, allowing him some voice acting roles but severely limiting his freedom at cons, or perhaps taking him out of cons altogether, but either way having to hope that he really does fix his behavior toward fans and co-workers.

When an individual is released from jail, there's a chance they'll repeat their behavior. But obviously most people wouldn't advocate permanent incarceration for all inmates. To what extent should Vic - or anyone else like him in anime or even society at large - be given the chance to move on within their industry?

By the way, I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm excessively defending Vic and ignoring the victims. I just believe that helping the accused get better - when they're willing - is better than blind fire and fury. At least, so long as the behavior has a strong chance of being cut off. Where we draw the line is what I'm worried about.

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