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EP. REVIEW: Fire Force

If you only saw the anime of Soul Eater I can understand why you would think that. The anime cut out and changed quite a bit from the manga, so the similarities between it and Fire Force aren't as noticeable to people who haven't read it. Between the two manga I actually think Fire Force is a bit more serious and less wacky.

It's because fire force tries to be more serious that the clash in tone is more glaring, while in Soul eater even its darker moments were still very wacky. Heck, the final third of Soul eater involved an antagonist that was the embodiment of madness.

BTW, I had heard that during the Soul Eater anime writing, Ohkubo's input was "politely disregarded" because he kept trying to put in ecchi elements and that the series later tone resulted from that

Well, my post of Sept14 has finally come true with Ep19 and for once the LLL is actually used for a purpose in battle...@JB, yeah, I don't think we need the LLL countdown because it seems it will be stuck at zero until the series end. Maybe you can do a ranking 1-10 of how the week's LLL compares in titillation or stupidity? This week's two incidents were dumb/needless and interesting respectively...

Also, not sure what this show is going for wrt women's characterization because it seems intent on being exceedingly sexist but then turns around and has has them being "bad-asses". I agree with NeverConvex that the LLL and such are needless distractions. BTW, I had heard that during the Soul Eater anime writing, Ohkubo's input was "politely disregarded" because he kept trying to put in ecchi elements and that the series later tone resulted from that

First episode of Fire Force in weeks that I’ve thoroughly enjoyed. Girl power for the WIN! Maki was so bad-ass this episode. That’s right, evil henchman, you got beat by a girl so suck it! And if you’re going to have a stupid sexist trope like LLL (ugh, don’t get me started on that Rekka fight), that’s how you do it! I laughed my ass off. That was perfect. FINALLY, payback for every woman who’s ever been ogled/groped. I found it viscerally cathartic. Breezy!

Hiroki not Takuya wrote:

...Also, not sure what this show is going for wrt women's characterization because it seems intent on being exceedingly sexist but then turns around and has has them being "bad-asses". I agree with NeverConvex that the LLL and such are needless distractions...

What exactly are you classifying as being overly sexist?

Please see highlighted text. If you are asking why I think the show is sexist or even exceedingly so, I'll start by examining the primary female cast members and how they are characterized

Maki- Was said to not be capable as a fighter in the Army relative to the Lt Commander, and becomes enraged at perceived slights to her feminine attractiveness. She likes to make and play with "cute" fire-sprites and becomes overcome with emotion when a male compliments her. In several scenes confronted by antagonists, she is seen cowering in the company of the other women.

Tamaki- Has shown little prowess in use of her powers besides producing cat-ears and fiery tail, her major characteristic is the Lucky Lecher Lure which leads to outbursts of consternation. She tends to wear little clothing and while at Company 1 she was obsessively devoted to Rekka and allowed herself to be abused by him, to the point of luring children to thier deaths to please him. Also seen cowering in multiple situations.

Iris- Almost exclusively seen acting subserviently and cowers frequently, and at least twice acting with very little intelligence.

Hibana- While presented as a powerful and abusive "man-hater", she usually wears a low-cut tight thigh-high split evening gown and in the face of opposition and physical assault by Shinra, becomes emotionally attached and devoted to him.

I was tempted to define sexism, but I think the fact that the whole female cast plays out various elements of male sexist views while the male cast is shown as very powerful, intelligent (except Arthur...), courageous etc. I think makes the conclusion self-evident. I don't propose that FF is the most sexist show ever, but it seems to be more so than most in the last few years and so is "exceedingly" sexist.

I guess it's one me for not understanding that you saw it as sexist due to stereotypes. When I think sexism I think discrimination and prejudice. I'm so used to stereotypes and tropes being over played in media that I don't inherently see the big issue anymore.

...I don't think there should be an issue where a tough person likes to play with something cute...

...Tamaki devotion thing to Rekka is a thing that happens, and it sucks....

...I'm not even going to touch the way the characters dress as being sexist but that's because I don't inherently see anything wrong with a character dressing sexy...

...I've literally just recently watched a live-stream of a DND game where a female character was being labeled as sexist for using womanly charms to get her way, so I think people opinion of what is sexist is sometimes a matter of opinion...

But I also think men tend to sometimes follow stereotypes and tropes when it comes to writing women and that's why you see this stuff a lot of times.

... When I think sexism I think discrimination and prejudice...I also don't feel like Maki liking to play with cute things should be seen as sexist....

I'm trying to think of a specific scene I've seen her cower behind other people, but I am possibly an episode behind at the moment...

I'm not even going to touch the way the characters dress as being sexist but that's because I don't inherently see anything wrong with a character dressing sexy.

I've literally just recently watched a live-stream of a DND game where a female character was being labeled as sexist for using womanly charms to get her way, so I think people opinion of what is sexist is sometimes a matter of opinion.

But I also think men tend to sometimes follow stereotypes and tropes when it comes to writing women and that's why you see this stuff a lot of times.

Before I say anything, I just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you for your attitude. You know, I stayed away from reading this thread this week because I was expecting a wall of vitriol because that has been the norm here at ANN for a long time. Maybe some of the "bad actors" have been removed (?). You're clearly not one and neither am I so I really appreciate it!

To your last point first, you are absolutely right and I usually expect some of that to come through in anime too. What "gets in my face" are writers that not only don't try to keep prejudices like sexism out of thier writing, but seem to blatantly put it in frequently and even try to portray more extreme examples than the usual. I'm not pronouncing judgement of that as "bad" but I don't like it and I'll certainly point it out. Now, I still think FF isn't overall terrible and this week's Ep seems like the story may be veering away from some of that so here's hoping...

You are right again that sexism is a prejudice and can lead to discrimination if acted upon, but you can only have the latter in a story if the characters act out such. It seemed to me that the Lt Cmndr was doing that regards to Maki in the Army, but he could have been referring to her mentality so maybe that shouldn't have been an example. In media, the "tell-tale" of prejudices I find is usually where and how the stereotypes that are associated with that prejudice are used and how frequently. Maki being enamored of "cuteness" isn't by itself sexist although a stereotype but coupled with her emotionalism when being complimented by males specifically and that she has cowered alongside the other women (not really behind) despite her supposed fighting prowess adds up to sexist treatment of the character IMO.

Also, nothing wrong with dressing "sexy" and in itself it's not sexist (and as a guy I appreciate it in anime), but coupled with the characters acting out other sexist stereotypes makes the case. The DND player being manipulative by using sexual attraction on other players (characters?) shouldn't have been labeled that way IMO because it a huge logical leap to imply that doing something means endorsement or universal application is the case. In fact, I see that being used as an intellectual weapon to attempt to stop the person from a behavior that is disliked which I see used way too often in media and elsewhere and is dishonest.

The reason I go into this sort of analysis is to find the truth about things through reason so that everything isn't "a matter of opinion" as there are no doubt many differing opinions on things. I find arguments are harder to sustain when one gets to specifics which I'll happily discuss with anyone without antagonism and again, I really appreciate talking with you about this.