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Key
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:25 pm Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
Personally I can understand her wanting to redeploy and remake it from something horrible and terrible to something that affirms her life and how far she has come.

Yeah, this is pretty much how I interpreted that scene when I went back and watched it a second. It's also, to her, a symbol of her bond with Naofumi.

Now, I can completely understand how her using slavery to accomplish this causes very negative reactions (although I imagine that this is probably one of the milder such points), which is why I'd never hold it against anyone who has a problem with the series because of it.

As for the point made in another post about a tattoo equivalent, Raphtalia would probably see that as too shallow, a mere symbol of commitment than proof of it.
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Tanteikingdomkey



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:54 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
Personally I can understand her wanting to redeploy and remake it from something horrible and terrible to something that affirms her life and how far she has come.

Yeah, this is pretty much how I interpreted that scene when I went back and watched it a second. It's also, to her, a symbol of her bond with Naofumi.

Now, I can completely understand how her using slavery to accomplish this causes very negative reactions (although I imagine that this is probably one of the milder such points), which is why I'd never hold it against anyone who has a problem with the series because of it.

As for the point made in another post about a tattoo equivalent, Raphtalia would probably see that as too shallow, a mere symbol of commitment than proof of it.

Yay once again, I totally get people finding this whole thing a huge NOPE, I can just personally understand why she would want to reclaim it into something positive.
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:02 am Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why they find rise of the shield hero to be misogynist.


I don't really like arguing about Shield Hero because it usually feels like a colossal waste of time, but you seem sincere and I'm having trouble sleeping tonight, so I'll explain.

If you look at Shield Hero completely and totally in a vacuum devoid of any outside context, I'll admit that the misogyny isn't always easy to spot. The first red flag, to me, came when he was flipping through the book in the library and declared the princess a "bitch". In the anime, it's just... an image of her in a dress. In the book, he describes how she flirts with the heroes. While ビッチ does come from the English word "bitch", the more accurate translation is "slut," which in this context is an obvious misogynistic slur.

The entire series, in fact, feels weirdly angry about women's sexuality. Later, when Myne tries to convince the queen that she really was raped, the queen dismisses her because she wasn't a virgin anyway. That's a common way to deny women's rape accusations in the real world ("she's such a slut, I bet she liked it/came on to him/etc."), but I'm getting ahead of myself. Meanwhile, all the "virtuous" female characters are either demure and ladylike like Raphtalia, or young and innocent like Filo and Malty.

But nothing is made in a vacuum and all art has some connection to the world it was produced in. Maybe it's just unfortunate timing that it came out during the #MeToo movement, but it's not like that campaign came out of nowhere. Women have always struggled to be believed - false accusations are exceedingly rare, and women who try to take their attackers to court face terrible consequences and rarely see justice. This applies all over the world, but the problem is quite severe in Japan. Just look into the case of Shiori Ito and why it's such a big deal. Naofumi almost getting executed without a trial after the accusation especially ties into the strawman "this is what the feminists want" arguments.

Not only that, but you can look at it within the wider context of anime and manga. False accusations are overrepresented in anime. This just adds another one to the pile.

Then, look at its audience. Yes, I know there are plenty of perfectly decent Shield Hero fans, but it does have a remarkable ability to bring out the absolute worst elements of the fandom. It has absolutely become a rallying point for misogynists, and that didn't happen randomly. There are elements of the story that attracted these people to it. The Shield Hero episode 1 review was the only article we ever had to close comments on, and we've published quite a few unpopular opinions in our time. Vic Mignogna's defenders compared Monica Rial and Jamie Marchi to Myne, and suggested they deserve a similar fate to her. While you shouldn't judge a work entirely by its fans, the fact that it resonates so strongly with that group should be a bright flag.

I have absolute zero doubt that if you wanted to continue to dig, there's also some academic feminist discussion about, say, the objectified female body as the site of male redemption to be had, but I'm too far out of college to do that coherently.


Misogyny aside, Shield Hero has the (dis)honor of being the only series that actually made me physically nauseous this year. The scene where he tortures Filo into submission is like a checklist of things that could get you banned from working with kids for life. It's psychological abuse, plain and simple, and the idea of putting a child through it made me sick.
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Key
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:02 am Reply with quote
all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
Later, when Myne tries to convince the queen that she really was raped, the queen dismisses her because she wasn't a virgin anyway.

I am by no means a passionate defender of the show, but I don't tolerate people trying to use blatant misrepresentations or outright inaccuracies to argue a case against it (or other shows, for that matter). This statement is completely inaccurate and is not even suggested in the trial scene. The queen very specifically says that she regards Myne/Malty as a pathological liar and so has the slave mark put on her so she can't lie her way out of it. Not a word is ever spoken about her not being a virgin, and that's the only scene in the anime where the two interact directly.

Quote:
The Shield Hero episode 1 review was the only article we ever had to close comments on, and we've published quite a few unpopular opinions in our time.

Um, no, this is not even remotely close to an accurate statement. Happens a few times each year, actually.

As I said in response to another post, I don't agree with some of the rest of your assertions, either, but acknowledge that those are subject to interpretation. These two issues are not.
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musouka



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:54 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Um, no, this is not even remotely close to an accurate statement. Happens a few times each year, actually.


Um, there are other anime review sites out there, you know. I assume all-tsun was referring to the one she works for—as is pretty obvious by the use of “we” in her sentence when she’s not a staff member at ANN?
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:57 am Reply with quote
Key wrote:
all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
Later, when Myne tries to convince the queen that she really was raped, the queen dismisses her because she wasn't a virgin anyway.

I am by no means a passionate defender of the show, but I don't tolerate people trying to use blatant misrepresentations or outright inaccuracies to argue a case against it (or other shows, for that matter). This statement is completely inaccurate and is not even suggested in the trial scene. The queen very specifically says that she regards Myne/Malty as a pathological liar and so has the slave mark put on her so she can't lie her way out of it. Not a word is ever spoken about her not being a virgin, and that's the only scene in the anime where the two interact directly.


That's for sure the case in the light novels - if the anime changed that, good on the adapters.

Quote:
Quote:
The Shield Hero episode 1 review was the only article we ever had to close comments on, and we've published quite a few unpopular opinions in our time.

Um, no, this is not even remotely close to an accurate statement. Happens a few times each year, actually.


I'm not talking about ANN, I'm talking about the site I write and edit for.
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mangamuscle



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:18 am Reply with quote
all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
That's for sure the case in the light novels - if the anime changed that, good on the adapters.


Then your comments are pretty out of place for a best anime of thread.

Quote:
I'm not talking about ANN, I'm talking about the site I write and edit for.


Again, your comments are pretty out of place for an ANN forum.
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Zac
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:57 am Reply with quote
Juuuuuust saying: these are novels and anime featuring fictional characters that are written by humans just like you - talking about the characters and their choices in a way that suggests their actions in the story you're reading are somehow not 100% deliberate choices on behalf of the writer, and yet are instead somehow guided by your personal logic or the way you think the world works or how women behave or whatever, is ridiculous.

You're reading a story that was written with purpose by a person just like you who has their own political beliefs, their attitudes toward women and the world, not watching a documentary. This is key to understanding why some people take offense at the way some people frame their arguments about Shield Hero - it does not exist in a political or social vacuum and was not created by a neutral non-entity who is merely reflecting reality.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:06 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Juuuuuust saying: these are novels and anime featuring fictional characters that are written by humans just like you - talking about the characters and their choices in a way that suggests their actions in the story you're reading are somehow not 100% deliberate choices on behalf of the writer, and yet are instead somehow guided by your personal logic or the way you think the world works or how women behave or whatever, is ridiculous.

You're reading a story that was written with purpose by a person just like you who has their own political beliefs, their attitudes toward women and the world, not watching a documentary. This is key to understanding why some people take offense at the way some people frame their arguments about Shield Hero - it does not exist in a political or social vacuum and was not created by a neutral non-entity who is merely reflecting reality.

Ok so the writer chose to write a story where characters go to an extremely negative head space and despises a femme fatale charcter who uses toxic femininity and her position to try and get what she wants.
And that set up alone is worth calling the show the great evil regardless of how the show uses that set up to change the characters and story?
If so I find that idea to be highly reductive and detrimental to story telling and combating the very things you want to see less of in writing in my opinion.

Zac I can totally understand why you would hate a portion of the fan base who runs with the show (in my opinion) in bad faith, and ignores major parts of it of the show just so they can have it say what they want to, and fulfill their fantasy, but just like the shows themes talk about. I think that your hatred here is making you just like them at the end of the day.
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Zac
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:40 pm Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:

Ok so the writer chose to write a story where characters go to an extremely negative head space and despises a femme fatale charcter who uses toxic femininity and her position to try and get what she wants.
And that set up alone is worth calling the show the great evil regardless of how the show uses that set up to change the characters and story?
If so I find that idea to be highly reductive and detrimental to story telling and combating the very things you want to see less of in writing in my opinion.

Zac I can totally understand why you would hate a portion of the fan base who runs with the show (in my opinion) in bad faith, and ignores major parts of it of the show just so they can have it say what they want to, and fulfill their fantasy, but just like the shows themes talk about. I think that your hatred here is making you just like them at the end of the day.


Yeah, OK. We disagree, but you're framing my arguments in a hyperbolic way in order to make yourself sound more reasonable, and sorry - not gonna work on me or get me to back off.

My point was that "well it seems like it would be in-character" is not an effective defense for "the author chose this absolutely morally disgusting story choice of a slave happily re-enslaving herself". And no I will not "ignore the slavery part" which is also something people ask you to do in order to defend this show's story choices.

You have your opinions, I have mine, we're both sharing them. It's not that big a deal in the end.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:16 pm Reply with quote
@all-tsun-and-no-dere

Ok FIRST OFF I can understand as someone who has had their sexual assault claims not believed, that the events in episode 1 are something that should not be touched on Lightly, let alone poorly. Shield hero doesn't do that.

I did not remember the book scene and you are right, he does do that and that is wrong and problematic. to be fair though that was a sloutlite in a book. and his actual words currently on crunchyroll are "I don't think that is the princess, she seems kinda slutty". When he meets her in real life he doesn't act like that at all to her, and is actually a gentleman until the incident.

The queen is first and for most MYNES MOTHER she knows her daughter, and knows that she is a compulsive lier, She then following that scene puts on her version of a full proof lie detector test on her and ask her fair questions, and even asks her friends to take over and get her to be honest. The queen for what ever faults you might have with her as a REGAINING AUTHORITY in the kingdom, I don't is mysogonist just a parent who had one daughter try and kill the other one and a husband who tried to help her with it. and I just checked the novels, and NO, NO she does not. If you could point out where she brings up mynes virginity in an official translation I would appreciate it.

While I have made my own #metoo post, I feel like it is also important to recognize how sexual assault where used by racist to kill many blacks, and others in the US in the past and how that is basically what has happened here.

The world is not black and white, while I whole heartedly hope that no one has to deal with sexual assault denial like I did, and such claims are taken seriously, and that education on power dynamics in romantic endeavors, and that people learn what the word NO MEANS. that does not mean that we can ignore our racist history, nor that like it or not that we can go after people half cocked, but need to properly trap and lock up the vile scum who deserve hell so that they don't do it to more people.

I am very happy for monica and jamie, they did not deserve what they received, and the trial was hilarious in how terrible vics defense was. the people comparing them to myne were heinous for doing so I think. That is not the fault of the show though I think. If it wasn't myne they would have compared them to Mayella Ewell from to kill a mocking bird. harder for kids to remember. But since it is required reading in the state for high schoolers I think that it should have stuck as well. And before you say that we shouldn't read that book now, just please don't.

I totally understand hating the people who ran with the show in bad faith, however saying the show is bad because some people refused to see what the show actually did and talked about with that set up is completely the same thing that they did.

NOW CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE SHOW WITH THE WORST POLITICS OF THE YEAR
HIGH SCHOOL PRODIGIES HAVE IT EASY EVEN IN ANOTHER WORLD.
Where a character is seen as the greatest in her field because her parents practiced eugentics to engineer her.
Where an illusionist can fly around, and make things disappear without any work or planing.
Where only the boys are allowed to make decision that effect the plot, while the girls have to (despite being prodigies and strong people in their own right) have to dancing around in bunny suits being booth babes to sell religious mayonnaise....THAT IS NOT MISOGYNISTIC AT ALL.
then we have THE WORLDS GREATEST POLITICIAN!!!!!!, who also KILLED HIS DAD TO TAKE HIS JOB
and what does he decided to make in the new world with that power, A MODERN CAPITALIST DEMOCRACY. While I am for that in our current world, the idea of just forcing that into a fantasy world with no changes or improvements is extremely depressing the status quo isn't the best and you are a fantasy TRY HARDER!

THEN there is the execution of that new government. A peoples revolution is not killing the SAO writing level king, and then letting everyone who supported him, keep not only all their money and things, but also their positions of power, and then declaring the country a democracy. THAT IS NOT HOW YOU SET UP A HEALTHY DEMOCRACY YOU IDIOT!
And lets not forget to show the king sexually assaulting girls and add in the goblin slayer approach of trying to make sure that it is sexually appealing for the male audience.
NEVER MIND if the good business genius does the same exact thing as the bad guys, he isn't as bad about it, so it is perfectly fine and a great person. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THESE POWER STRUCTURES, BECAUSE THE GOOD GUYS ARE THE ONES USING THEM NOW!

So yay I am sorry but as someone who does care about politics and helping people with them, I find high school prodigies far more misogynist, terribly written, and politically heinous then shield hero which for its occasional writing screw ups tries to tell a story about the evils of racism, hatred, and isolationism.


Last edited by Tanteikingdomkey on Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tanteikingdomkey



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:18 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:

Ok so the writer chose to write a story where characters go to an extremely negative head space and despises a femme fatale charcter who uses toxic femininity and her position to try and get what she wants.
And that set up alone is worth calling the show the great evil regardless of how the show uses that set up to change the characters and story?
If so I find that idea to be highly reductive and detrimental to story telling and combating the very things you want to see less of in writing in my opinion.

Zac I can totally understand why you would hate a portion of the fan base who runs with the show (in my opinion) in bad faith, and ignores major parts of it of the show just so they can have it say what they want to, and fulfill their fantasy, but just like the shows themes talk about. I think that your hatred here is making you just like them at the end of the day.


Yeah, OK. We disagree, but you're framing my arguments in a hyperbolic way in order to make yourself sound more reasonable, and sorry - not gonna work on me or get me to back off.

My point was that "well it seems like it would be in-character" is not an effective defense for "the author chose this absolutely morally disgusting story choice of a slave happily re-enslaving herself". And no I will not "ignore the slavery part" which is also something people ask you to do in order to defend this show's story choices.

You have your opinions, I have mine, we're both sharing them. It's not that big a deal in the end.

I absolutely agree, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter that much. I still find you to be an amazing film critic and will be looking forward to your future work. wishing you and jacob all the best.

I can totally understand you just wanting to have that in your entertainment, at the end of the day it's entertainment. Personally I find the series to use that initial starting point to say something about racism and connection in a positive way. and ONCE AGAIN while I can disagree personally with trying to change a slave crest into a positive thing in someones life, I can understand why someone who has had that in their life would want to redeploy it and have it mean someone else in their life.

I do want to apologize to you as someone who does like the series for the inaccurate and mean spirited people who like the show and are horrible, you shouldn't have to deal with that crap, but it's the internet and we can't have nice things apparently.
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Key
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:51 pm Reply with quote
all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
That's for sure the case in the light novels - if the anime changed that, good on the adapters.

While I can't absolutely verify this, my impression from comments I've heard over time is that the adapters took a similar approach with Shield Hero as they did with GATE: They toned down or outright excised some of the most potentially problematic content. If what you were claiming was in the novel then I fully agree that this was a positive change for the anime.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Shield Hero episode 1 review was the only article we ever had to close comments on, and we've published quite a few unpopular opinions in our time.

Um, no, this is not even remotely close to an accurate statement. Happens a few times each year, actually.


I'm not talking about ANN, I'm talking about the site I write and edit for.

My apologies, I was not clear on this point.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:05 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
That's for sure the case in the light novels - if the anime changed that, good on the adapters.

While I can't absolutely verify this, my impression from comments I've heard over time is that the adapters took a similar approach with Shield Hero as they did with GATE: They toned down or outright excised some of the most potentially problematic content. If what you were claiming was in the novel then I fully agree that this was a positive change for the anime.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Shield Hero episode 1 review was the only article we ever had to close comments on, and we've published quite a few unpopular opinions in our time.

Um, no, this is not even remotely close to an accurate statement. Happens a few times each year, actually.


I'm not talking about ANN, I'm talking about the site I write and edit for.

My apologies, I was not clear on this point.

Yay I have just been watching videos just stating what was cut from the story, I would have been annoyed personally was any more of an ass, especially to the people actually treating him decently.

If you just watch episode 1 then the series really has not touched on the racism in the kingdom that is the source of what is happening to him, so without that context and only the toxic introduction it is far more understandable why the discussion went so negative so fast....so much for that one hour episode helping to set up EVERYTHING, that it needed to.
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Jose Cruz



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:15 pm Reply with quote
Interesting that on the worst list I saw two shows I found very entertaining and better than favorites: Shield Hero and Magical Girl Spec Ops.

Although in the first case the reason it was hated is mainly due to fact it insults sensibilities molded by the current state of American identity politics. I was quite surprised when I read negative reviews of it because I couldn't understand at first what they were talking about. To me, it was essentially the best isekai show I ever watched: very entertaining, good animation, excellent art style, well-paced. It was just a very well crafted piece of entertainment. Of course, after reading the criticism and thinking about the show I started to understand where it came from, but I didn't hurt my enjoyment of the show while I was watching it.

In the second case, Magical Girl Spec Ops was lower quality product but I found the concept very interesting: how about we think of Mahou Shoujo as if they happened in the real world? A true genre deconstruction.

I also find it interesting that few reviewers mentioned Attack on TItan season 3 part 2, which is amazingly popular (with an average score on MAL of 9.07). I personally also found it to be the best show of the season: it was just "epic" in a sense that I haven't seen in recent years. At first, I expected it to be on numerous best of the year lists given its huge popularity. Maybe anime critics are becoming like live-action film critics? Those guys tend to not put popular movies on best of the year lists because they are popular.
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