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EP. REVIEW: Is It Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon? III


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Key
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:18 pm Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
How much do they really know? Because they mentioned looking for a jewel on her forehead before attacking Wiene. They were on the lookout for the blue girl.

At this point, they know nothing. The forehead jewel is a standard vouivre trait, and IIIRC from the novels, it's common knowledge that prying the jewel out causes the vouivre to go crazy. Though vouivres are rare creatures, a high-level veteran like Finn knowing that would be expected.
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Yuvelir



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:35 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Yuvelir wrote:
How much do they really know? Because they mentioned looking for a jewel on her forehead before attacking Wiene. They were on the lookout for the blue girl.

At this point, they know nothing. The forehead jewel is a standard vouivre trait, and IIIRC from the novels, it's common knowledge that prying the jewel out causes the vouivre to go crazy. Though vouivres are rare creatures, a high-level veteran like Finn knowing that would be expected.

But even with that knowledge (which is starting to get annoying since I despise "mixed media projects") it wouldn't make much sense, would it? Would they have spared the vouivre if it had a jewel? Or was the implication that they would have gone for a different approach?
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Key
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:32 am Reply with quote
^
I don't think you necessarily need to know anything from the books to figure out that some knowledge about vouivres would be standard upper-level adventurer knowledge, though. Dix and the Ikelos Familia crew certainly knew it was a vouivre, so did Fels and Ouranos, and it might have been mentioned by others. Hence it could be obvious even from the anime only that it's a known creature.

As for Finn's call based on the missing jewel, I'm hesitant to say more here because of what may or may not be shown next episode. Based on anime content alone, consider that Ganesha Familia was under "capture, not kill" orders without knowing why. If Loki Familia is also operating under Guild orders then we can assume that they had the same directive under the same conditions.

On an unrelated note, for those lamenting that more wasn't shown about the strike squad sent to the 18th floor getting the crap kicked out of them, this week's Side Story in the DanMemo game concerns exactly that. (Both during s2 and this season, a special Side Story segment is released the same day the new episode airs. Sometimes they're silly add-ons, but sometimes they elaborate more on book content not covered by the episode. The latter has more often been the case this season.)
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Covnam



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:40 pm Reply with quote
I was curious about the jewel so I looked it up. I don't think this is a spoiler, but I'll tag it just in case: spoiler[According to what I found, the jewel itself (called a Vouivre's Tear) is very valuable. However it is not a drop, so if you kill the vouivre the jewel disappears. This means that if you want it, you have to "extract" it from the vouivre before you kill it, however doing so causes it to go berserk. This has led to many adventure injuries and deaths. I imagine that if the jewel was still present, Finn would have opted for another approached to killing it (presumably, restrain it further, carefully retrieve the gem, then kill it).]

Also worth noting relating to the gem, and this may be a spoiler so: spoiler[The naga-like form Wiene took is actually what vouivre's normally look like. This ties back to her originally suggested name by Bell, Welusine, which is likely inspired by Melusine, who has sometimes been depicted with a snake like body and wings. Not sure what significance the different body type has (other than humanizing Wiene) if any, but perhaps we'll see later]
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Nordhmmer



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:45 am Reply with quote
[quote="Covnam"]I was curious about the jewel so I looked it up. I don't think this is a spoiler, but I'll tag it just in case: spoiler[According to what I found, the jewel itself (called a Vouivre's Tear) is very valuable. However it is not a drop, so if you kill the vouivre the jewel disappears. This means that if you want it, you have to "extract" it from the vouivre before you kill it, however doing so causes it to go berserk. This has led to many adventure injuries and deaths. I imagine that if the jewel was still present, Finn would have opted for another approached to killing it (presumably, restrain it further, carefully retrieve the gem, then kill it).]


That's not Finn's,nor Loki's family's, motive at all.
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Covnam



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:42 pm Reply with quote
Nordhmmer wrote:

That's not Finn's,nor Loki's family's, motive at all.


I'm just referring to the reason why Finn might have called out about the jewel, not why they're there. Unless you're suggesting another spoiler related reason he would have mentioned it I wouldn't be aware of?
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GhostD



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:06 pm Reply with quote
Well, thats one way to start the episode and I am glad the death and revival scene was as emotional as I hoped it would be. They even added a song and a post-credits scene. My only wish was that they showed Gros thanking Bell as well. Would have added more emotional weight to the scene.
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Seagloom



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:01 pm Reply with quote
I feel like Bell getting to run off scott-free, at least in the moment, was a bit of a cop out after his heroic stand last week. I'm willing to forgive that though, since he still committed to his decision and will likely suffer consequences in the near future.

That aside, the rest of this episode was excellent. Dix being unceremoniously killed underscores how the turmoil he set in motion is more important than the instigator and was oddly satisfying. He will not be missed.

The fight between Asterius and the Loki familia looked great--particularly when Aiz entered the fray. It was nice seeing Asterius dominate even though he killed a guy minutes ago, but I wasn't surprised when he lost an arm and eventually withdrew.

That final scene was the highlight though. Totally didn't expect them to kill off Wiene and bring her back. I believed she was really dead because of all the build up. Normally I would've been irritated that they walked it back with a seemingly consequence free resurrection, but the scene drew me in so much I almost cried. So I can't really fault it for succeeding at what it was clearly trying to do.

Amazing episode. It really feels like this season has reached, if not surpassed the peak set by the first.
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Yttrbio
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:15 pm Reply with quote
What is it that the monsters are thanking Bell for doing? I guess he stalled the Loki folks long enough for her to pull the spear out, but they were going to take her alive anyway. (And also, why were they trying to take them alive?) And even if she was killed, magic skeleton guy could just bring her back.

Maybe the fallout from all this will make it seem worthwhile, but it felt like a lot of pulled punches after last episode's buildup.
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GhostD



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:40 pm Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
What is it that the monsters are thanking Bell for doing? I guess he stalled the Loki folks long enough for her to pull the spear out, but they were going to take her alive anyway. (And also, why were they trying to take them alive?) And even if she was killed, magic skeleton guy could just bring her back.

Maybe the fallout from all this will make it seem worthwhile, but it felt like a lot of pulled punches after last episode's buildup.


First of all, they planned on killing her because they knew that with the jewel on her head gone she was gonna go berserk and there's a strong possibility of getting civilians involved. Second, they were trying to take the Xenos alive because there was something Finn wanted to know or confirm. As for Fels' resurrection magic that was actually his first successful attempt at using it

Yes they skipped some stuff that I wish they didn't like Bete beating up Rei and Gros giving Bell a heartfelt thanks but this is still a very good ep
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Princess_Irene
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:55 pm Reply with quote
GhostD wrote:
As for Fels' resurrection magic that was actually his first successful attempt at using it


I didn't have a good place to put it in the episode review (which I just finished writing, so it's not up as I'm making this comment), but that spell, Dia Orpheus, is probably a reference to the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, where he almost manages to rescue his wife from the underworld, i.e. resurrect her. Since in the myth Orpheus doesn't succeed, it makes sense that Fels historically hasn't been able to either - possibly another sign of Bell as a major game changer in Orario.


I agree that I wish they hadn't left the bit with Gros out, but looking at this in terms of the whole arc, I think the show did a good job with the episode.
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GhostD



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:23 pm Reply with quote
Princess_Irene wrote:
GhostD wrote:
As for Fels' resurrection magic that was actually his first successful attempt at using it


I didn't have a good place to put it in the episode review (which I just finished writing, so it's not up as I'm making this comment), but that spell, Dia Orpheus, is probably a reference to the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, where he almost manages to rescue his wife from the underworld, i.e. resurrect her. Since in the myth Orpheus doesn't succeed, it makes sense that Fels historically hasn't been able to either - possibly another sign of Bell as a major game changer in Orario.


I agree that I wish they hadn't left the bit with Gros out, but looking at this in terms of the whole arc, I think the show did a good job with the episode.


Very interesting. As I mentioned before I know very little about Greek myth so Im learning a lot today.
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Key
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:09 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, I caught the Orpheus reference in the spell name and fully appreciated its irony. Also, in case Rebecca doesn't mention it in the review, Asterius has many references in Greek mythology, but the most relevant one here is the true name of the Minotaur.

And other posters are correct: the opportunity for Fels to use his spell to resurrect Weine - and for the Xenos to at least temporarily get away with her - does not exist if Bell doesn't run interference. (Other adventurers might have taken her out even if Loki Familia didn't.) The Xenos recognize that, so thanking Bell is wholly warranted.

Bell's meeting with Eina at the end - and the title of the next episode - give hints about what the cost of Bell's effort will be, not the least of which is likely to be a strained relationship with Aiz. But that's what truly makes Bell the hero: he acted without regard to the consequences on his reputation, and as Fels points out, that hadn't happened before with regards to the Xenos.

Also, another interesting tidbit for those who don't play the DanMemo game: In the story of Argonaut, the titular character was widely-regarded as a clown and fool. Hence Hermes (who almost certainly knows that) calling Bell a fool carries greater significance. But it's interesting the Hermes isn't happy about that, isn't it? Perhaps this is the first time that Bell hasn't followed the path of the hero that Hermes had laid out?
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Princess_Irene
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:20 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
Also, in case Rebecca doesn't mention it in the review, Asterius has many references in Greek mythology, but the most relevant one here is the true name of the Minotaur.


I managed to get that one in before I went on my, uh, theme for the episode. Very Happy
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Yttrbio
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:08 pm Reply with quote
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And other posters are correct: the opportunity for Fels to use his spell to resurrect Weine - and for the Xenos to at least temporarily get away with her - does not exist if Bell doesn't run interference. (Other adventurers might have taken her out even if Loki Familia didn't.) The Xenos recognize that, so thanking Bell is wholly warranted.

But... other adventurers DID take her out. That's exactly how it turned out. In terms of just running interference, the monsters were just as capable as Bell was (and in fact, that's how it turned out, with gargoyle dude and company keeping away Weine's killers and the others holding off the Loki familia). Bell essentially slightly moved her death location, and none of the monsters even saw him do it.

Judging from the comments, I guess I'm just a weirdo, because following a dramatic farewell with "actually, I'm fine" has always been an engagement-killer for me, and no one else, it seems. It reeks of writing that is cowardly and greedy, like a writer really wanted to add a dramatic moment but didn't want to deal with the consequences of it. The fact that Fels has never succeeded before would be interesting in that character arc, but it's never come up before. We see Fels attempt it once, and it works out totally fine.

Overall, it feels like the culmination of a story arc we didn't see (Fels) undoing the consequences of the story arc we did see (Bell and Weine). It makes me super skeptical that any negative consequences for Bell are going to be real, and I'm going to be approaching the fallout with a cynical eye, rather than feeling much in the way of tension. I feel like the only time we ever saw Bell have to actually sacrifice something was in the movie, which is either non-canon or just not being treated as part of Bell's worldview. I'll be happy to be surprised, but it's just going to be surprise, not engaging tension, which seems like a real miss for this show.
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