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EP. REVIEW: Attack on Titan The Final Season


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Agent355



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:34 pm Reply with quote
OrdepNM wrote:
Quote:
all while the Scout Regiments fly about Marely so they can commit their own, littler war crimes.


Maybe I'm forgetting something but what did the Scouts Regiment do that could be constructed as a war crime? I recall them taking out an artillery battery with explosive spears, flushing out entrenched soldiers with grenades, bombing troop transports and Sasha sniping a group of armed guards.

Anyhow, I don't know if it was deliberate but I found Willy and Margath's plan to be... Really out there. The season started at the conclusion of a war that begun due to a group of nations banding togheter to challenge Marley's hegemony at a time when they were perceived as weak... So they decide their next move is to goad the enemy into fighting an highly dicey pitched battle right at their capital which could very well be left a smoldering ruin - I'm sure that will do wonders for their power projection, specially in they lose any more Titans. I get that the story will just state that other nations just fall in line due to their fear of Paradis overpowering their hatred of Marley but if you think military commands in other nations aren't looking at what's going on and thinking "Well, let's just leave both sides to bleed each other out and maybe swoop in to tip the scales when we can't milk this situation further", then I have a bridge in Paradis to sell you. Sure maybe its shortsided but that's just human nature, courts all over Europe were overjoyed when the French revolution kicked off, not that they had any love for the revolutionaries, but having the premier military power in Europe paralyzed was perfect news until it wasn't.

Also the plan to purge the top brass, while I can concede that some particular power hungry individuals with an overstated assessment of their abilities could go along with, but it sounds incredibly reckless. "Too many generals" is a problem pre-modern militaries did ocassinally run into in a career path that was usually determined by promotion every X years (this was a notorious problem in pre revolutionary France) but that's usually a budgetary problem, which doesn't strike me as a concern for either of the two plotters here. The other reason to do it is ideologic, like Stalin's purges to the military that did away with the last vestiges of the Russian imperial army - tough I don't see that motive being at play here and more importantly, the soviet's humiliation in the subsequent Winter War against Finland should tell you all you need to know about the short term problems of shooting a large chunk of your military brass shortly before going into conflict, let alone right in the middle of a war.


These are great points, and I agree Tyber and Magath’s plan was ridiculous. I don’t quite like how the narrative creates this circular and almost too perfect structure of cause and effect—Tyber and Magath are purposefully baiting Paradis to attack, Paradis takes the bait just as planned, the whole world agrees to ally with Marley against Paradis. It’s a little too perfect, and it seems to have been done just to showcase how Tyber, Magath and Eren are equally at fault/too blame for the civilians killed in the attack.

A few points of correction, though: Magath and Tyber “planned” this attack not only to “unite the world” (which I agree shouldn’t have worked) but also because they suspect there are traitors in the Marley military working with Paradis and they wanted to smoke them out; and the attack doesn’t take place in the Marley capital but in Liberio, the Eldian ghetto, because Marley and Tyber don’t give a damn if innocent Eldian civilians are murdered and their ghetto destroyed, plus bonus! They think the rest of the world will be more sympathetic if they see images of the poor, subjected Eldians cruelly killed by those “evil Island Devils.”
Magath had some reservations about putting civilians in danger but ultimately he was cool with it.

I think we’re all supposed to be questioning Eren’s motives now. Frankly, as someone up to date with the manga, I’m still questioning Eren’s motives. It cannot be stated enough that he just committed a War Crime and murdered innocent civilians, including children, and while his fellow soldiers are helping him out, they have reservations. Mikasa was clearly not cool with it and Jean, to his credit, was trying to minimize the damage. He also just reinforced the Whole World’s negative suspicions of Paradis Eldians in particular. I have no idea why he thought this was a good idea.
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Pipoko



Joined: 13 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:27 am Reply with quote
Zefram wrote:
Pipoko wrote:

spoiler[I think the Ymir backstory at least gives the situation a little bit more nuance than that because the real perpetrator of this whole thing actually enslaved what we consider the ancestors of current Eldians. The first king Fritz built the empire on a slave(s) he obtained and abused and that actually does fit the analogy a little bit better because the slaves are also separate folk from the Eldians. The empire was essentially built on the exploitation of the Jewish equivalent (who were innocent enslaved people) by a foreign power and went from there. Ymir also obtains the power in a very neutral way. So it at least leans into the "this is general human nature" and "this is how imperialism works" angles a little bit more.
]


But also, yeah, it probably would've been much better to not use the imagery at all. Plenty of other ways to still get the point across.


While agree that using imagery of Holocaust here was not a good idea. However, I slightly disagree about the Eldian empire origin backstory, its a bit more complicated then that.

spoiler[ Backstory was more about the Haves and the Have Nots, powerful and powerless and how much Titan power made a difference to the powerful but did not to the powerless. The original "king" of Eldian people is regular leader - powerful warrior, brute, etc and original Ymir is powerless slave who is so abused and beaten-down that when she obtained the greatest power imaginable allowed herself to be used up by her abuser with only way out by killing herself. After that the story changes, her daughters were the only heirs of the Eldian king, so their family became the power class. ]

But I also find it interesting that in all Eldian power families (Tiburs, Fritz', etc), the other members of the family reaped the rewards but they sacrificed their most powerless member, someone who is always timid (and in Tiburs and Fritz' cases usually female). Its only when Eldian families lose control of their Titans (the ones that Marleys stole) the males become part of it, and they do not consider themselves sacrifices and powerless but more as warriors. I find this dynamic very interesting.


I feel like you should cover more of this up for spoiler sake, I'm not sure whether this gives away a little too much, but I think you're also very right about the power dynamic element of it. You can see it with Tyburs, too, even if a little less obviously.

spoiler[Basically, the empire was born because of a man abusing a woman. In my eyes, this is commentary on the patriarchal structure of society and how it's powerful men who usually cause this stuff and I think that detail alone has a lot of discussion in it, including the nature of abuse, power dynamics between oppressor and oppressed and how power effects people, basically how all of that works.

But I'm mostly just thinking about how it would read in the context of the Jewish allegory. So there wasn't a grand Jewish empire, but one built on abusing the oppressed people, technically just Ymir herself (though I say slaves because the king already seems to have been expanding his territory and using slaves for what he wants before Ymir got her power. Basically, it is saying that empires are built on the suffering of the weak and the weak were the slaves/Jewish equivalent.

]
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Everlasting Coconut



Joined: 22 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:08 pm Reply with quote
OrdepNM wrote:
I get that the story will just state that other nations just fall in line due to their fear of Paradis overpowering their hatred of Marley but if you think military commands in other nations aren't looking at what's going on and thinking "Well, let's just leave both sides to bleed each other out and maybe swoop in to tip the scales when we can't milk this situation further", then I have a bridge in Paradis to sell you.


I could see that being the case if the other nations had a sort of neutral position in the whole "Eldians are devils" conflict, but from what we've learned so far, Eldians in other nations are hated and oppressed far more than in Marley. So if Paradis were to declare war (which I guess they have as of last episode), I don't think they'd have the luxury of waiting and milking the situation. In Paradis' eyes, everyone outside its borders is already an enemy, and considering the imminent, world-scale threat that The Rumbling poses, I can see why the other nations would heed Marley's call.
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Zefram



Joined: 02 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:22 pm Reply with quote
Everlasting Coconut wrote:
OrdepNM wrote:
I get that the story will just state that other nations just fall in line due to their fear of Paradis overpowering their hatred of Marley but if you think military commands in other nations aren't looking at what's going on and thinking "Well, let's just leave both sides to bleed each other out and maybe swoop in to tip the scales when we can't milk this situation further", then I have a bridge in Paradis to sell you.


I could see that being the case if the other nations had a sort of neutral position in the whole "Eldians are devils" conflict, but from what we've learned so far, Eldians in other nations are hated and oppressed far umore than in Marley. So if Paradis were to declare war (which I guess they have as of last episode), I don't think they'd have the luxury of waiting and milking the situation. In Paradis' eyes, everyone outside its borders is already an enemy, and considering the imminent, world-scale threat that The Rumbling poses, I can see why the other nations would heed Marley's call.


The other nations at some point were neutral in the whole "Eldians are evil" conflict, however in the last decade or so it changed as direct result of Marley using oppressed Eldians as weapons of mass destruction in their conquest. Before that other nations didn't care or were even sympathetic to poor oppressed Eldians, who were mistreated by nasty Marley due to some bad history together. However, once Marley started dropping off titanized Eldians as mindless weapons plus using Warriors, all sympathy stopped. Marley hatred and abuse of Eldians brought on Eldians hatred of entire world. Also Tibur family is completely guilty in all this, perhaps guilty of whole thing. Obviously in Marley they held position of power, to be respected, to be so rich and to be so involved in politics. Not only they allowed mistreatment of Eldians in Marley, they also allowed their titanization and use to attack other nations, knowing full well that will bring more hatred on Eldians. They allowed/encouraged Marley to send Warriors to Paradis to get founding titan from King Fritz family because they knew full well they could not respond due to King Fritz oath, and they knew it would result in upheaval either way in Paradis. Marley didn't know about King Fritz oath, they were afraid of the Rumbling to do more than fill up Paradis shores with mindless titans, but Tibur knew about it and told them to steal founding titans, the whole thing started due to Tibur. Plus big question is how Marley could titanize Eldians. It was implied it was Zeke's power, but Marley were doing this before his birth. I think it was Tibur who did it, as noble family who held their own titan they were related to royalty. So Tibur did all of this behind the scenes. Thats my theory.
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Nordhmmer



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:57 pm Reply with quote
Agent355

You've stated you're up to date with the manga but you wonder about Tybur & Magath's "plan"? Have you forgottenspoiler[ about Zeke's part in the planning and his subsequent betrayal of said plan? Episode 8 and later episodes will no doubt clear the issue up ]
spoiler[
I've also come to believe,after reading the latest chapters, that Ymir is using both Eren & Zeke. Would not be surprised if she did not have a hand in from the beginning.]
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Yuvelir



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:28 pm Reply with quote
After the last few times that we have been shown the Colossal Titan, I've got to wonder how damn strong the walls must be. The fucker is like an atomic bomb every time he spawns, but both times that he did so next to a wall the wall survived and he needed to kick the gate open.
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Gem-Bug



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:38 pm Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
After the last few times that we have been shown the Colossal Titan, I've got to wonder how damn strong the walls must be.


The walls being made out of Colossal Titan is likely a big part of it!
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Yuvelir



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:49 pm Reply with quote
Gem-Bug wrote:
Yuvelir wrote:
After the last few times that we have been shown the Colossal Titan, I've got to wonder how damn strong the walls must be.


The walls being made out of Colossal Titan is likely a big part of it!

But even the masonry around them is excellent for all bricks to stay in place.
And that line disturbed me a little wheb hearing it. Isn't THE Colossal Titan one of the very special 9 special titans? How come that there are hundreds or thousands of colossals? With skin? And noticeably shorter than THE colossal titan? And they're also good at hardening.
And come think of it, how much of his population did Fritz sacrifice to make those walls? Assuming he could control what shape his titan subjects could take.
Unless... this episode we saw two Eren Titans on the same frame... Would it be possible to "dismount" your titan and, instead of it slowly dissolving, hardening it (before dismounting I assume)?
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Agent355



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:49 pm Reply with quote
Nordhmmer wrote:
Agent355

You've stated you're up to date with the manga but you wonder about Tybur & Magath's "plan"? Have you forgottenspoiler[ about Zeke's part in the planning and his subsequent betrayal of said plan? Episode 8 and later episodes will no doubt clear the issue up ]
spoiler[
I've also come to believe,after reading the latest chapters, that Ymir is using both Eren & Zeke. Would not be surprised if she did not have a hand in from the beginning.]


Point 1 spoiler[I’ll admit that I did forget how much Zeke was involved in both plans, as a double agent (not that I forgot that he is a double agent). But Eren is still playing along with someone his colleagues don’t trust to the end of reaffirming prejudices against and painting a target on Paradis Eldians. ]
On point 2 spoiler[I’ve seen that theory before. Depending on how the last few chapters play out, Eren (and Zeke) may be depicted as puppets being manipulated by Original Ymir, the ultimate Big Bad. Which, in my mind, makes it even more a case of playing into an enemy’s hand, killing innocents just as they planned.]
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Johan Eriksson 9003



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:00 am Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:

But even the masonry around them is excellent for all bricks to stay in place.
And that line disturbed me a little wheb hearing it. Isn't THE Colossal Titan one of the very special 9 special titans? How come that there are hundreds or thousands of colossals? With skin? And noticeably shorter than THE colossal titan? And they're also good at hardening.
And come think of it, how much of his population did Fritz sacrifice to make those walls? Assuming he could control what shape his titan subjects could take.
Unless... this episode we saw two Eren Titans on the same frame... Would it be possible to "dismount" your titan and, instead of it slowly dissolving, hardening it (before dismounting I assume)?


Yes, that is possible. That was exactly what the survey corps had Eren do at Shinagashina to plug up the hole made by the colossal titan. But those shells would obviously be dead.

As for why there are apparently millions of Colossal titans who can get up and move at any moment, the latest manga-chapters may have answered that.

spoiler[Turns out that one of the powers of the original titan is to "store" the information of every single titan-shifter who dies through the paths that connect them and they can then spawn copies of those shifters endlessly.]
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Everlasting Coconut



Joined: 22 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:56 am Reply with quote
Ever since yesterday my Twitter feed has been full of Galliard the Nutckracker Titan memes and people thirsting over Armin. I wouldn't want it any other way Laughing
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Nordhmmer



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:13 am Reply with quote
Yuvelir wrote:
Gem-Bug wrote:
Yuvelir wrote:
After the last few times that we have been shown the Colossal Titan, I've got to wonder how damn strong the walls must be.


The walls being made out of Colossal Titan is likely a big part of it!

But even the masonry around them is excellent for all bricks to stay in place.
And that line disturbed me a little wheb hearing it. Isn't THE Colossal Titan one of the very special 9 special titans? How come that there are hundreds or thousands of colossals? With skin? And noticeably shorter than THE colossal titan? And they're also good at hardening.
And come think of it, how much of his population did Fritz sacrifice to make those walls? Assuming he could control what shape his titan subjects could take.
Unless... this episode we saw two Eren Titans on the same frame... Would it be possible to "dismount" your titan and, instead of it slowly dissolving, hardening it (before dismounting I assume)?



Titans release a great deal of energy when they transform,they also uncontrollably release steam for various reasons.
The Colossal Titan has the ability to release that energy,as with the steam & heat it generates, at will but with limited use- as learned in season 3.
Armin went all-out releasing his energy blast. and "nuked" the city's harbor district and a large chunk of the Marlean navy- notice how slim his Titan was afterwards.
The Colossal Titan is also big,60 meter big..and is the strongest of the Titans.

The tens of millions of "colossal" titans that make up the walls of Paradis Island are in fact mindless abnormal titans that look like smaller versions( they are still colossal in size) of the Colossal Titan.The wall titans only power is their hardening skill, they've no control of the heat & steam they release.
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NeverConvex
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:59 pm Reply with quote
Damn, really enjoying AoT this season -- just a bunch of ridiculously over-the-top giant-people-and-Ackermann sakuga. So far, the second half of this season has more than made up for my misgivings about the aimless narrative and poop-tube torture and what not of the past few seasons.
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Zefram



Joined: 02 Oct 2019
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:38 pm Reply with quote
Based on pace of anime adaptation this season, 16 episodes will get us exactly to moment spoiler[ When Eren wakes up from the Path and starts the Rumbling ] thats Manga chapter 122. Isayama announced he plans to conclude the manga in April. So thats approximately 140 chapters total. The whole ending part will take about 8-9 more episodes to conclude. Thats like whole second cour, 4 hour-long OVAs, or two 2 hr Movies.
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maximilianjenus



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:08 pm Reply with quote
Agent355 wrote:

These are great points, and I agree Tyber and Magath’s plan was ridiculous. I don’t quite like how the narrative creates this circular and almost too perfect structure of cause and effect—Tyber and Magath are purposefully baiting Paradis to attack, Paradis takes the bait just as planned, the whole world agrees to ally with Marley against Paradis. It’s a little too perfect, and it seems to have been done just to showcase how Tyber, Magath and Eren are equally at fault/too blame for the civilians killed in the attack.

A few points of correction, though: Magath and Tyber “planned” this attack not only to “unite the world” (which I agree shouldn’t have worked) but also because they suspect there are traitors in the Marley military working with Paradis and they wanted to smoke them out; and the attack doesn’t take place in the Marley capital but in Liberio, the Eldian ghetto, because Marley and Tyber don’t give a damn if innocent Eldian civilians are murdered and their ghetto destroyed, plus bonus! They think the rest of the world will be more sympathetic if they see images of the poor, subjected Eldians cruelly killed by those “evil Island Devils.”
Magath had some reservations about putting civilians in danger but ultimately he was cool with it.

I think we’re all supposed to be questioning Eren’s motives now. Frankly, as someone up to date with the manga, I’m still questioning Eren’s motives. It cannot be stated enough that he just committed a War Crime and murdered innocent civilians, including children, and while his fellow soldiers are helping him out, they have reservations. Mikasa was clearly not cool with it and Jean, to his credit, was trying to minimize the damage. He also just reinforced the Whole World’s negative suspicions of Paradis Eldians in particular. I have no idea why he thought this was a good idea.


spoiler[i think this is another place where the muvluv inspiration can be used. eren is in practical means very similar to a time looper due to the attack titan, he can see the future and ita consequences and he can change the past in some ways to try some things. that what has been keeping me invested in his , so to speak new personality]


{Mod Edit}: Use spoiler tags when discussing source material that has not been shown yet. ~ Psycho 101
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