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Chicks On Anime - Fansubs (Pt 2)


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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:04 pm Reply with quote
iindigo wrote:
WORDS


People scolded Unit 03.5ish for posting nonstop and you're easily matching his furious pace. Go back and look at the last few pages and count how many responses on each page are yours, and it's a little ridiculous.

Hit the brakes a little. This has become the 'argue with iindigo' thread.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:07 pm Reply with quote
For one particular series I watched the dub, then the subs, then the dub with the Japanese subs on, then the commentaries from the director (only a few episodes though, wish there would be more extras like that) all in the span of a month (What I get for only bringing one anime series home, and none of my games.) But definetly a different experience each time. And actually watching the commentary, I would've missed something if I just watched the subtitles (The thing was that the characters really weren't talking to each other in the whole series. Something that could easily be missed)

Last edited by LordRedhand on Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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iindigo



Joined: 07 Feb 2009
Posts: 73
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:07 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
iindigo wrote:
WORDS


People scolded Unit 03.5ish for posting nonstop and you're easily matching his furious pace. Go back and look at the last few pages and count how many responses on each page are yours, and it's a little ridiculous.

Hit the brakes a little. This has become the 'argue with iindigo' thread.


My apologies, I just felt a need to immediately respond whenever someone responded to me. I'll slow down.
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tankerboy



Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 81
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:09 pm Reply with quote
Streaming is feasible only if you have a high speed connection I have dsl but it's at the end of the line, downloading 30 minutes of content takes from 3 to 12 hours; people with dial-up say they don't even consider it.

Another consideration for me is, I don't think sitting at a desk in a desk type chair watching tv is fun. I prefer to watch it on a television, obviously for this to happen I would have to transfer it to disk in a format my player could handle. And that is exactly what I do. I download a fansub based on reviews, I convert and watch it and if I like it I buy it; which happens about 80% of the time. Because it takes so long I would rather not download the whole thing but that seems about the only way practicable.

So the anime industry makes a profit off of me but if it wasn't for the fansubs I wouldn't even look at anime and they'd get zip; I'm not going to spend 30-100+ bucks based on a review, trailer, or one episode.

This is why I like the idea of "pay as you go" To me a site that sells series' episodes individually makes sense and even more sense if they sold the first three episodes for, maybe, two bucks each and three for all the others. Just like you can now download music in just about any format or convert it after download it just makes sense to me to do the same with episodic anime.
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SongstressCela



Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 615
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:27 pm Reply with quote
iindigo wrote:
They could air/distribute it in the US without a dub track and I'd be perfectly happy. To me, the dub track is wasted time.


Haaaaaaaahahahaha! Good god, way to kill the industry in one fell swoop!

Quote:
I understand that new fans probably don't want to bother reading subs


Hint: There are a lot of fans that are anything but new who don't want to listen to subs.

Quote:
The costs of popping something onto iTunes is minimal at best.


You know, that's actually an incredibly good idea. I can't imagine it would take much to get a series on iTunes, and to host sub only releases in digital form there. It might even recoup enough costs that lesser, niche titles could earn a dub in DVD format.

It sounds almost too easy, though. Anyone care to shed some light on why studios might not be doing this? I doubt Apple is preventing it, since there's a fair amount of anime on there as is...
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:33 pm Reply with quote
I'm thinking marketability issues, imagine if someone wanted the dub, but downloaded the sub instead, lot of people angry that's what. (Also really hard to refund, look at some of the stuff over Xbox Live or PSN Store, you can potentially buy the same thing twice, no refund for it either if you do.) So it's more of a one release right now, Funimation releases dubs of certain series on iTunes as it's back to the general market.
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SongstressCela



Joined: 26 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:36 pm Reply with quote
Well, that'd be their own fault. It wouldn't be hard to make it blatantly obvious it's a sub-only format.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 14746
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:38 pm Reply with quote
LordRedhand wrote:
Sheleigha wrote:

Digimon...
Ok, well apparently Adventure 02 of all things is available on Crunchyroll. But, is it bad for me to complain that I wish I could have a fancy boxset instead of streaming an episode? Amusingly enough, even in the fansubbing world, Digimon has NOT EVER been successfully subbed all the way through! It takes years for the people that try and Tamers has hardly been touched.... Heck, even if you wanted to BUY legit dubs, they hardly released alot of that anyways :/


Well one would have to wonder how big market is for "uncut" Digimon, sure subtitles fine, but the series is marketed to children, so the release is going to be marketed to children, generally that means dub.


Well, no further info yet, but this may be of note:

Well Go USA to release Digimon Data Squad in North America

Toei Animation has signed Well Go USA to release Digimon Data Squad on DVD in box set format during the Spring of 2009 in both the United States and Canada. The initial box shall continue the first thirteen episodes of the series. Further details have not be released.

Source: Cynopsis.
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ValkyrieZeroZeroOne



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 432
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:39 pm Reply with quote
enurtsol wrote:

ValkyrieZeroZeroOne wrote:

I may be missing the mark completely here, but I would imagine that the revenues from selling broadcast rights to a television network not only cover the costs of dubbing the series that is on TV, but in at least some cases subsidise the costs of other series' dubs as well. Now with more and more anime being lifted off TV, this source of funding is dwindling rapidly.


Ha! Revenue, he says. Laughing

On the contrary, in terms of US anime broadcasting, it's a buyer's market. Simply, the networks are in the position of power - the anime companies need the networks more than the networks need the anime. If anything, the anime companies are giving the networks the anime for free or even give the networks a cut of the DVD sales in exchange for airing the anime (IIRC, as was the case in the early days of Adult Swim). The anime companies get their money back thru increased DVD sales due to broadcast exposure.


Like I said, if it was off the mark, then it was off the mark. Statements like the one Bandai made about Hayate becoming dub only due to the probable inability to get it air time allows one to fall into the trap of believing that meant there was no way they could get revenue through selling it to a TV network. Thanks for clearing that up.


ValkyrieZeroZeroOne wrote:

My personal opinion is that to avoid buying a series you really want to see just because there's no English dub is to cut your nose off to spite your face,


Well, I wouldn't use that analogy myself because it can also be argued that if one really wants to see a show then don't avoid it just because there's no sub. Confused [/quote]

I don't disagree, choosing not to see a series that really interests you because there's no *sub* would be equally as foolish. However, how often do you hear of anime being released today dub-only? Apart from the Crayon Shin-chan mentioned earlier, I can't recall one since yesteryear when series were imported, edited, and dubbed for syndication. Besides, I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say "no sub = no sale".


Unit 03.5-ish wrote:
Valkyrie: I keep harping on entitlement like a "broken record" (Rolling Eyes) because a lot of downloaders are whiny, impatient, spoiled brats who think they have the right to every anime under the sun for free. When leechers are no longer an issue, then entitlement will no longer be an issue. But the truth is, a lot of those selfish "broke" kids don't see anime as an industry with people who have JOBS working to produce it to make MONEY; they see it as this magical supply of endlessly free entertainment that they are not subject to paying for.


I don't disagree with you on that point. However I'll ask you again, whose fault is it for letting it get to that stage?
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Unit 03.5-ish



Joined: 07 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:40 pm Reply with quote
tankerboy wrote:
So the anime industry makes a profit off of me but if it wasn't for the fansubs I wouldn't even look at anime and they'd get zip; I'm not going to spend 30-100+ bucks based on a review, trailer, or one episode.



Legal streams, downloads, rentals, borrowing from friends or libraries...is this really so alien a concept to some people?


EDIT: Valkyrie -- yeah, this is largely the fault of the industry (and primarily on the Japanese side) for letting this beast grow to such a size. I still don't understand why Japan is so slow to change, and why they hold R1 companies by the balls when it comes to implementing said changes to their business.


Last edited by Unit 03.5-ish on Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:42 pm Reply with quote
And yet it can happen, and it kinda goes back to K.I.S.S. and "People are Lazy" idea. As download pack for Rock Band give you a disclaimer that the song may be available in a pack, no refunds issued, and yet it still happens.

Also assumes the user of the iTunes is tech savvy, as having worked in troubleshooting you won't believe what kind of questions you can get, like "What does the hour glass symbol mean on my BlackBerry." In that case they were pissed off when I answered that question..... as I essentially told them their BlackBerry was working correctly.
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SongstressCela



Joined: 26 Sep 2008
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Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:48 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Legal streams, downloads, rentals, borrowing from friends or libraries...is this really so alien a concept to some people?


This has all been gone over already.

Streams: The vast majority of series are not streamed.

Downloads: Most series aren't available via download.

Rentals: Most rental stores don't even carry anime outside of large cities, and if they do there's a damn fine chance they won't carry niche titles.

Friends: If you're lucky enough to have any interested in anime.

Libraries: Never seen a library with a large anime collection, not at all. A few manga, maybe, but never anime.
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Unit 03.5-ish



Joined: 07 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:51 pm Reply with quote
I'm just saying piracy is not the ONLY option for trying new stuff out...
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Unit 03.5-ish wrote:

EDIT: Valkyrie -- yeah, this is largely the fault of the industry (and primarily on the Japanese side) for letting this beast grow to such a size. I still don't understand why Japan is so slow to change, and why they hold R1 companies by the balls when it comes to implementing said changes to their business.


It comes down to the very normal fear of change, and then licensing, rights, other legal issues.
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chucklyfun



Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 18
Location: Orlando, FL
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:05 pm Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
chucklyfun wrote:
@pparker - Market research is not the answer. The problem is twofold:
* Customers don't know what they want, usually. iindigo is an exception here because she has already seen it.
* Companies pay attention to their most vocal customers for market research. That includes people like LordRedhand, who don't see the need for this. Fans like iindigo would not be surveyed, unless they're lucky and they buy a ton of their product even though they likes fansubs more.
My articles supporting this:
http://www.innosight.com/blog/index.php?id=189 < The Best one

Yeah, I wrote assuming the times when market research does work, not when it so often fails. The bias based on personal assumptions and discounted data are rarely obvious by the time research data is summarized for management, but all the points in this link are valid. Thanks for the links, BTW. Great stuff, though I haven't finished them all.

My other reference in line with this was the waiting for the "Steve Jobs of Anime". There are very few individuals with his ability to dream up products, starting with the Lisa, that not only anticipate future demand but create it from desires that remain subconscious in the population. Jobs is an artist, and Gates is an opportunist regardless of his claims otherwise (beginning with MS DOS).

But I wouldn't entirely discount marketing research as a tool in responding to changing market conditions and driving incremental innovation. It just has to be done right. The likelihood of ever developing something disruptive based on market research is virtually nil. By definition it is something the established company can't or won't see coming until it's too late to ignore.


Standard market research works passably well for Sustaining / up-market improvement.

Disruptive research will look like the research done by Nintendo, Halo 3, 3M, and so on. This type of research has the innovators working directly with potential customers to see how they use their products. Even better is when developers work with the most innovative members of the community and incorporate their ideas.

This happens naturally with homebrew ideas which develop on the internet. They have very active forums / communities which allow the developer to see what is good and what isn't.

Nintendo's research has done this for years. They worked very hard to get the motion control just right for the Wii. They've done it since the original Nintendo and Super Mario Bros., as you'll find in some of the Malstrom articles.

In Halo 3, people tracked people who had never played the game before through the level. They made sure that they used the level as intended and improved it where they didn't. They weren't trying to hold people back, but just make sure that the implementation wasn't getting in the way of fun like many other games. I can't remember where it was. Its hinted at here:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17636

The key to finding a "Steve Jobs of Anime" is to create a market with the disruptive potential to have the markets existing innovators turn their hobby into a business model. If you look at webcomics, take a look at XKCD. Randall Munroe developed his webcomic consisting of stick figures, charts and graphs, and math jokes, into one of the most popular comics on the web. He lectured at Google, has a cult following that obey his every whim, and is immensely popular with the ladies. I am not Randall Munroe, nor am I a lady. I am a toaster.

Disruptive markets have a low cost of entry and very little regulation. Ebay is a good example.


Last edited by chucklyfun on Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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