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Barachem



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:23 pm Reply with quote
konkonsn wrote:
Except women aren't born with flawless skin, hair in whatever style is pleasing to the generation, and fine-toned bodies. Peacocks attract visually for health reasons; better looking male means less disease. The same is true for in that we like our mates to be healthy-looking; but looking healthy and looking like every woman presented on TV are two totally different things.


Something i as a man detest is this indoctrinated obligation that a woman has to be so and so looking, otherwise she isn't acceptable to anyone.

konkonsn wrote:
Um, yes? Do you not read magazine articles and newspapers that laud stars for their clean cuts or ridicule John Kerry for his botox injections? How about the modeling and acting agencies that generally require younger males to be smooth shaven?


And more disturbing is the trend that men have to be smoothly shaven below the neck as well.
And who pushes these appearance norms and values?
The mainstream media.

konkonsn wrote:
Men may not comment on our clothing specifically, but they use words like "whore" or "MILF." What about when guys talk about a girl "putting out?" It's the exact same type of judgement.


So it's a people problem, not just women and men.
I do understand the need to take care of one self, it would be atrocious to smell like a rancid weasel after not showering for weeks and looking loike a disaster because of never looking in the mirror, but the whole perfectionism with regards to looks and especially the impossibly good looking lads and lasses in magazines give us standards that cannot be possibly neared without going into excesses.
That also translates into people judging each other mostly on looks rather than on character, making it difficult to find any not self-absorbed vain pricks of either gender as friends.

konkonsn wrote:
I don't get where this falls into your discussion...so because I'm a tiny girl, I should follow unnatural beauty standards that would not be required of me if I was some bear-like guy? Wait, let me put that another way: Vagina = $$$ on makeup; Penis = natural. Got it.


In the former times that was still true, nowadays both men and women "have to follow" unnatural beauty standards, making it like this: Penis = $$$ on body modifiers; vagina = $$$ on body modifiers.

And this is reflected in japanese society as well, with media setting trends, shoujo comics reflect that so very well, showing impossibly beautiful women AND men.
And in reality the REAL host bars require the hosts to be beauty kings and down flasks of champagne.

Also what ties in into what you experience in comics is the depiction of less attractive women due to nerdyness having an obligation to leave that behind and become stunning beauties.
Honestly, why do women have to be overly attractive AND conform to an unnatural and even alien beauty standard, at least alien to me and former generations?

Why the brainwashing and indoctrination through the media with regards to moronic beauty norms?
I have no qualms with a nerdy woman and have no problem with a woman being hairy, better even, being nerdy and naturally hairy is even a turn on for me.
Who even wanted these unnatural beauty "laws" in the first place anyway?
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CuteyHoney



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 53
Location: OC,CA
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:33 pm Reply with quote
The main similar trait between the two is that the women are voluptous. I guess it's good for them to look sexy, however in many manga that is exceeded (Eiken manga). In the comics with superheroes, women appear to be stronger and not as delicate as women in manga. For instance, Storm and other female characters from X-men are strong and fight. In many mangas women are timid and afraid, but not all women. It depends on what you read. In some manga, there will be a mixture of both types. In Ai Yori Aoshi, Aoi is timid, but Tina is strong. There are usually only more strong women in mangas when they have powers, like in Slayers, or if there are some type of fighter with a gun or an android or something (Dorothy from Big O). In romance titles, there is usually on or 2 strong women, and the rest are shy (To Heart or Comic Party) I wish there were more strong women in manga.
The women in comics also are more intellectual than women in manga. Comic female characters tend to be highly educated, while some characters in manga are either stupid or clumsy (Serena from Sailormoon or Taeko from Ai Yori Aoshi or Shinobu from Ninja Nonsense). Their stupidity may make it comical, but it doesn't make a good insinuation on how to treat women. I would believe that the majority of manga characters who are smart were written by women.
Alot of women in manga also are low statused, like maids(Mahoromatic, Emma). Alot of them are shown to enjoy cleaning and cooking and other housework. I'd like to see more anime with men doing more housework.
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liannesentar



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 29
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:44 pm Reply with quote
ArthurFrDent wrote:
But that doesn't seem to change the fact that men want to know what a woman looks like, and she wants to know if he's "financially stable"...


Please. Please please please stop perpetuating this stupid, outdated stereotype. Someone's already said it here - a generation or two ago, when women weren't encouraged (or in some cases, weren't ALLOWED) to go to school and get jobs, marriage equated to survival, so of course money was a concern for her when she was choosing a mate. If some woman these days is only seeing you "as a wallet," she's a superficial twit and not worth your time. This is just as bad a man who only sees a woman as a pair of breasts.

However, if job/financial stability is a factor in some woman choosing a mate, consider the whole picture. Is she working, and thus wants to make sure her mate won't slack if there's a steady income already coming into the house? Do the two of you want kids, and she wants to make sure one of you can quit work for a while so the child can be raised? How about chores? Does she clean your house and cook you dinner every time she comes over, so she wants to make sure you make enough money so she can work part-time and keep up the housework since it's obvious she's going to be doing it anyway?

In all the male-female couples of this generation I know, the majority of them have the woman making MORE money than the man. And nobody freaks out, because the "one gender should be making more than the other gender" stereotype is outdated, stupid, and wrong. (Although just the other day I saw a graph about the CURRENT wage disparity between the genders, where, for example, men make 20%+ more than women even way down in the RETAIL INDUSTRY, but don't get me started on that.)

If a woman only sees you as a wallet, she's a jerk. If she factors in financial stability when looking at a serious relationship, she's probably thinking about the broader picture and wants to protect herself and her future. That's just like how a man who ONLY sees women as bodies is not the same kind of man who wants someone who's "more than a body" but is decently pretty anyway--the kind of guy who's thinking about the long-term but is trying to protect his sex drive. Not all girls are golddigging whores and not all boys are superficial pervents, kay?
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Cloe
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:36 pm Reply with quote
Barachem wrote:
Why the brainwashing and indoctrination through the media with regards to moronic beauty norms?

I think you and konkonsn are basically on the same side of the argument in this regard--beauty indoctrination is moronic, for both sexes. I think you're missing one crucial point, however.

Barachem wrote:
Who even wanted these unnatural beauty "laws" in the first place anyway?

MEN. It was men.

Vogue magazine - founded by Arthur Baldwin Turnure
Cosmopolitan magazine - founded by Paul Schlicht
Marie Claire magazine - founded by Jean Prouvost
People magazine - founded by Dick Durrell
Glamour magazine - founded by Condé Nast Publications, owned by Samuel Irving Newhouse

And it's not just beauty mags or even the mass media in general. There is plenty of historical evidence to suggest that some of the worst and most harmful "beauty" trends were created in heavily patriarchal societies.


Last edited by Cloe on Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ArthurFrDent



Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 466
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:42 pm Reply with quote
oops, sent the thread on a tangent by being impertinent... however 2 little things. Question most asked to men on dating sites is: "are you financially stable"...

and Cloe?

Vogue was established in 1892... since the early 60's it has been edited by women, and all edition editors are women.

Cosmo, started in 1886. Is currently edited by Kate Whit and Helen Gurley Brown [since 1965].

Marie Claire 1937, relaunched in 1954 Edited by Evalyne Prouvost since 1976, currently edited by 3 women.

Glamour 1939 No history on when it went to female editor, but currently only the German edition is edited by a guy. All the english language versions are edited by women.

I think it's a little disingenuous to say that men STILL perpetuate unnatural beauty 'laws' When women have dominated the editorship of the mags for decades. They decide what goes in, and they are selling to a female audience, NOT a male one.

Allure, started in 1991 Edited by Linda Wells...
Harper's 1867 Founded by and edited by women, all along.
etc...

I would submit that People doesn't fall into the same category as the others, since it isn't specifically aimed at women like the others, however you may be right defacto. It started in 1974 and has had male editors. Teen People on the other hand has always had female editors.

How much it all means? prolly tangential to this conversation, but important to a larger one. Sorry for the mess.

Ps. konkonsn?
"Um, yes? Do you not read magazine articles and newspapers that laud stars for their clean cuts or ridicule John Kerry for his botox injections? How about the modeling and acting agencies that generally require younger males to be smooth shaven?"

Yeah? No. I don't read such things, nor do my peers that I know of. Even the young punks I work with don't. Is that because they are all engineers and IT people? Could be. Out of the hundreds of guys I work with I can't think of more that a couple that are fashion types. I've biked and skiied with both and they don't shave their chests... Guys don't dress for men, we dress for women.
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Cloe
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:55 pm Reply with quote
ArthurFrDent wrote:
I think it's a little disingenuous to say that men STILL perpetuate unnatural beauty 'laws' When women have dominated the editorship of the mags for decades.

That's not really the question I was answering, though. What Barachem asked was "Who even wanted these unnatural beauty laws in the first place?" And the "first place" is far before the founding of beauty mags, corsets and even bound feet (a practice which started in the 9th century). It's been going on a long, long time, and while unnatural beauty standards are perpetuated by both men and women, they are almost invariably started by men.

ArthurFrDent wrote:
No. I don't read such things, nor do my peers that I know of. Even the young punks I work with don't. Is that because they are all engineers and IT people? Could be. Out of the hundreds of guys I work with I can't think of more that a couple that are fashion types. I've biked and skiied with both and they don't shave their chests... Guys don't dress for men, we dress for women.

Doesn't this count as evidence for the imbalanced expectations for what is the lowest "expected" standard for beauty and cleanliness for each sex? If a guy shaves his chest, he's considered a "peacock" by the masses. If a woman doesn't shave her legs, she is considered unattractive by the masses. Surely you can recognize that there is a double standard here.


Last edited by Cloe on Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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wandering-dreamer



Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 1733
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:12 pm Reply with quote
infinitebeauty wrote:
wandering-dreamer wrote:
I believe I actually read some of the Minx imprint comics, I remember reading one called "Plain Janes"...I really didn't like the art. I just find manga art to have cleaner lines and shading and really don't like the American style (even before I read manga). So I think that part of the reason there are fewer comics for girls in America is because fewer people think to tell a story like that. In Japan people know that they can tell a story, any kind of story, in a manga.

The P.L.A.I.N Janes had rather unfortunate art, I agree, but what makes you think it is representative of all American comic art? In fact, what is 'the American style'? Alex Ross, Karl Kerschl, Rafael Albuquerque, Bruce Timm, George Perez, Art Balthazar...all of these people have different, recognizable styles.
Would you be offended at someone saying that all manga looks the same? The same applies to American comics too. They aren't all the same style.

I didn't mean for it to sound like I was saying that all American comic art looked like the Plain Janes style. Actually, I can't say that I have seen that much American comic art (maybe because I'm not the in the demographic? I was actually the right age for the Minx line).
And I agree with what someone else said, I really don't like most of the OEL manga that Tokyopop has put out. The stories are so boring, and that's what I meant by not a lot of people who write in the comic median, most YA authors (what I read) are novelists, not comic artists, and even when they do adapt them, ick (I'm thinking of the Pendragon and Artemis Fowl adaptations).
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ArthurFrDent



Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:02 pm Reply with quote
"Surely you can recognize that there is a double standard here." Cloe.

I surely agree that it's a double standard. Though I have shaved a whole lot of female legs in my time... I wouldn't demand it, because I'm certainly NOT going to shave mine. My question would be: who is the big bad boss who is holding a gun to your head? Women are half the pop, if they just said "I'm not going to do that anymore" why wouldn't that stick? Seems like they did that 40 years or so ago. What happened to that? Are you really saying that women aren't capable of making that change work? A lot of femme friends of mine don't shave their legs, they don't seem to have a problem finding companionship.

This is a decision to be made, and only an individual can make it.

Men may have started those mags, but that was 100+ years ago. Women also couldn't vote then. In the history of humanity the last hundred years probably changed more the the preceeding 5000. Changes like this can be made, all the more if women realize they are more than strong enough to do it. Don't tell me carpe diem is just a guy thing... Who cares who started it? Do you want to punish me retroactively for what happened in the 9th century, or the 19th?

I mean this in a very straightforward way... nobody is holding you down, and forcing you to cooperate with unreasonable expectation. Those mags would go away if nobody bought them. GUYS don't buy them, so it's not us supporting the myth. If guys were faced with women suddenly not shaving their legs, they would adapt or never have female companionship. You can imagine that wouldn't last long. When you talk about the masses and expectations, it ain't guys that buy this stuff, we don't edit this stuff, or write it. It's women.

If you want to pin the blame on who started what or whatever, go ahead. The question is what will you do about it going forward? It is entirely up to you.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:28 pm Reply with quote
ArthurFrDent wrote:
I mean this in a very straightforward way... nobody is holding you down, and forcing you to cooperate with unreasonable expectation. Those mags would go away if nobody bought them. GUYS don't buy them, so it's not us supporting the myth. If guys were faced with women suddenly not shaving their legs, they would adapt or never have female companionship. You can imagine that wouldn't last long. When you talk about the masses and expectations, it ain't guys that buy this stuff, we don't edit this stuff, or write it. It's women.


You seem to be treating "men" and "women" as lump categories, that "women" can wake up one day and not shave their legs, and "men" will just deal. But there isn't some female mass-mind that we're all hooked into where we wake up one day and decide to stick it to men. The reality is of individuals who have to decide whether to go along with social norms or face opposition, ridicule, and mistreatment. Those are what enforce gender norms in this country for both men and women, not laws, not biology the way you seem to think. Try to imagine a woman who didn't shave her legs and how many employers would (consciously or unconsciously) hold it against her. This is about individuals, not some hydra-headed entity known as "women."
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ArthurFrDent



Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:01 pm Reply with quote
we seem to be talking both in large group and individual, do we not? The individual has to decide what they will do, and the large group is made of those individuals.

When Cloe says: "There is plenty of historical evidence to suggest that some of the worst and most harmful "beauty" trends were created in heavily patriarchal societies."

The patriarchy isn't me, it's a large group, and the beauty trend was equally made by a large group. So who decided to stop binding feet? Who decided that Women should vote?

Your point on shaving legs: "Try to imagine a woman who didn't shave her legs and how many employers would (consciously or unconsciously) hold it against her."

and how would an employer know that?

Try to imagine a guy with a full beard like mine. You can always see it. I know that not everybody likes it, in fact most of my femme friends tell me I should shave it off if I'm looking for a mate. I may well have not gotten jobs because of it. I was forced to shave it off for a job once because beards weren't allowed. Shrug... I just got a different job. I didn't think twice.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:45 pm Reply with quote
ArthurFrDent wrote:
Your point on shaving legs: "Try to imagine a woman who didn't shave her legs and how many employers would (consciously or unconsciously) hold it against her."

and how would an employer know that?


It's called any item of clothes that doesn't cover you to the ankle!

Quote:
Try to imagine a guy with a full beard like mine. You can always see it. I know that not everybody likes it, in fact most of my femme friends tell me I should shave it off if I'm looking for a mate. I may well have not gotten jobs because of it. I was forced to shave it off for a job once because beards weren't allowed. Shrug... I just got a different job. I didn't think twice.


But beards are socially acceptable on males, even if some people might not prefer them. We're talking about something that is universal.

You made the claim earlier that men and women are different, and you're right - the social norms and situations that apply to us are different. Stop pretending that as a man you somehow go through the same things as a woman. You don't. Period. I'd be insulted if your analogies weren't so laughable.
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enurtsol



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:23 pm Reply with quote
konkonsn wrote:
ArthurFrDent wrote:
So are peacocks victims of the peahen matriarchy because they are the ones that have to attract visually?


Except women aren't born with flawless skin,


That reminds me in anime, girls often have this oily shiny skin. Like smooth plastic from Barbie or RealDoll or those Akihabara figurines. Like they're always going for the perfect pantyhose look. A gold standard. Cool


konkonsn wrote:
ArthurFrDent wrote:

...we are rarely as nasty about a woman's looks as other women are. "she looks so trashy in that, I can't believe she is wearing it!"


Men may not comment on our clothing specifically, but they use words like "whore" or "MILF." What about when guys talk about a girl "putting out?" It's the exact same type of judgement.


Nasty? Terms of endearment, said with love! Laughing
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:12 am Reply with quote
Barachem wrote:
Why the brainwashing and indoctrination through the media with regards to moronic beauty norms?
I have no qualms with a nerdy woman and have no problem with a woman being hairy, better even, being nerdy and naturally hairy is even a turn on for me.
Who even wanted these unnatural beauty "laws" in the first place anyway?


Ah but here's the thing. You may be attracted to hairy people but the vast majority of people are not. So for you, that standard just seems silly. The truth is though that for the vast majority of people it's not. They are more attracted to people who aren't hairy. Hairy people are less aesthetically/sexually/etc pleasing to them. So really, based on your average person, there is nothing moronic about these expectations. It's just common sense. That's how these standards got started. Because despite what you might think, almost everybody wanted them. People love to complain when they are held to certain beauty standards but are often pretty willing to then hold others to certain standards. That's not entirely a bad thing though in my opinion. Don't get me wrong. Trying to conform to unrealistic standards is foolish. The vast majority of people will never look like the people shown in magazines and what not. However, conforming to some level of beauty standards is probably a good thing to do.

The thing I think people forget a little in all this is that being attractive is a good thing. When I look for a potential girlfriend if she looks like Jessica Alba I consider that a definite plus. You know what though? There's nothing wrong with that. Looks are a factor that will affect my enjoyment of a relationship with a person just as their sense of humor, interests, views, etc etc will. (Don't mistake this for insinuating that it's all about what I want by the way. Clearly this goes the other way as well). Now of course, it is foolish to judge people solely on looks. That is because there are other important factors (in fact more important especially in the long run). It's not because there is somehow something wrong with taking someone's appearance into account. Being attractive is a good thing and being unattractive is a bad thing. It's not the only thing but it is still a positive quality. It's a bad thing if people perceive society as expecting them to look like Jessica Alba or Brad Pitt. It's not if society expects you to make reasonable efforts to look good. Those are good things to do and a little pressure to do them is good too.

Also on a side note, I think the reason for the in balance between the standards for women and the standards for men is of course because much of the standards for women date back to historical points where men were in charge and as such pretty much set the standard. I find it interesting though that in recent decades where women do enjoy the same rights as men there seems to be a definite spike in the standards men are expected to conform to.

vashfanatic wrote:
Quote:
Try to imagine a guy with a full beard like mine. You can always see it. I know that not everybody likes it, in fact most of my femme friends tell me I should shave it off if I'm looking for a mate. I may well have not gotten jobs because of it. I was forced to shave it off for a job once because beards weren't allowed. Shrug... I just got a different job. I didn't think twice.


But beards are socially acceptable on males, even if some people might not prefer them. We're talking about something that is universal.

You made the claim earlier that men and women are different, and you're right - the social norms and situations that apply to us are different. Stop pretending that as a man you somehow go through the same things as a woman. You don't. Period. I'd be insulted if your analogies weren't so laughable.


Preferred nothing. There's a pretty major chunk of girls that think beards are really really gross. They're borderline acceptable at best. As in, people do have em and people accept them because they don't have much of a choice since so many men have em. Also, This is acceptable But it doesn't just grow like that all by itself. No, you have to constantly trim it and shave the areas you don't want it to grow on. Otherwise it looks like this. That is not acceptable. Take it from a bearded man, beard care is a pain in the ass. It's arguably more of a bother than just shaving every morning. And that's another issue in itself. How often do you ladies even shave your legs? Is it every morning? Cause that's usually how often men shave. Also, it's not like every man can even grow a decent looking beard so some of us are stuck shaving wether we like it or not.

Granted the expectation that women shave their legs probably amounts to more of a bother than taking care of your facial hair does for men. It is still definitely a bother though. Maybe you should stop acting like anything men go through is just completely no big deal and not even vaguely comparable to anything you go through. It is this delusional idea that women have it just sooooo bad with this kind of thing but for men it's all sunshine and lolipops that shows you lack the perspective and understanding you would likely expect from men when addressing how these things affect you.
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Barachem



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:58 am Reply with quote
Cloe, i understand you're arguing against the unnatural beauty laws for women, but things have changed and are changing to include men as well in those unnatural beauty laws.
I am not arguing to let only men off the hook with regards to unnatural beauty laws, but to abolish those abominations of laws altogether.

Men did begin the unnatural beauty laws, thanks for answering that.
But why would the women who took over those magazines continue those laws AND even add onto them?
Something's wrong there, something very disturbing even.
If feminism has freed women, why do women in power positions subject the the masses of women to enslaving beauty laws?
And why would any self-respecting woman accept that kind of servitude?
Even more, why would any human accept these unnatural and expensive laws as a given?

vashfanatic: I understand social pressure, but isn't it more important to withstand that?
I mean, some of the greatest social progress came from rightfully standing up to the established order, especially where unrighteous behaviour was the norm.
While beards are amrginally acceptable for older men, for younger men like me and ArthurFrDent it is a social sin to keep a beard.
Just look around and see how western societies have been conditioned that beards are a social sin.
Ask women if they like beards, most will say no.
Ask men whether they like beards, most will say no.
Beards have been more fashionable in the past, but nowadays beards are out due to society and its beauty laws.

ikillchicken: So according to your reasoning, someone with a deformed face should be shunned for being ugly.
Eugenics for the win.

Anyway, majority rule on beauty standards lead to different beauty standards in different cultures.
But asking for people to be good looking focuses people more on looks than character.
Sorry, but i don't buy this vanity bullcrap.
I do make a point of looking cared for, not looking like you never have seen a comb, scissors or nail clippers.
Good looking is not necessary, looking cared for is to some extent, but different people have different opinions about that.
The two beard examples you show look both cared for to me, albeit that those are two quite different beards.
Keeping a beard cared for isn't that difficult, although you make it seem like a hassle.

Furthermore, you come with your view on that people should conform to beauty laws in society as far as reasonably possible, but i say bullcrap to your opinion.
I think people should have the freedom of choice with regards to their looks and their body, as long as they don't become biological hazards to other people.
Another thing is that you assume that looking good is important.
This reasoning does not automatically apply to all humans.
Not everyone has the same priorities, not everyone wants to be good looking, not everyone shares your worldview.
I'm amazed how at how free most people think they are, yet their own reasoning and paradigms seem to hold them prisoner and try to imprison others as well.
And THAT is why i oppose any beauty standards forced onto people by indoctrination and social pressure.
Because that thinking is what also gives rise to bullying in schools and the whole jock, nerd, snob, barbie-clone, etc. group scenes in high-schools.
No, you can keep that garbage, i reject it.
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littlegreenwolf



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:29 am Reply with quote
Some of you argue that the feminist movement should have done away with it all, but I think a lot of you are forgetting that the "feminist movement" happened in just the United States of America. Travel anywhere in the world, Europe especially, and you can tell an American girl on vacation out from the other girls. For example, Jeans and a t-shirt stick out like a sore thumb in Paris. The rest of the world still has a lot of influence of what we think is beauty, and it isn't about to change.

But either way, yeah, it comes down to genetics and attracting a mate. You want to be the good looking, attractive one, and you want to attract your pick of the opposite sex. If you're unlucky and have been born with what some would call an ugly face, yeah, you're going to be shunned because that's not what the call of the wild is looking for.

I really can't believe this is being argued. It's a sick psychological cycle that started with men, and has been ingrained in the minds of both, and its not going away no matter how much you yell its wrong. End of story. There's nothing to argue, and no, things have not changed.

Can we get back on topic, because that's a heck of alot more interesting. Comics, wohoooo~ How about that Y: The Last Man? Not written by a woman, but drawn by one, and it sure has a lot of great female characters, especially since there's only one guy in the whole world.
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