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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 1674
Location: Quezon City, Philippines
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:59 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
Some of you argue that the feminist movement should have done away with it all, but I think a lot of you are forgetting that the "feminist movement" happened in just the United States of America.


Define "feminist movement". Pretty sure feminism exists in the rest of the world.
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Princess_Irene
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:04 am Reply with quote
infinitebeauty wrote:

Another reason, although this one is more difficult to prove, could be that girls, tired of romanceless comics, moved on to manga and became trapped by the mindset that only manga was allowed to have good stories. Or they didn't hear about MINX. Or the creators of MINX didn't know their target group as well as they thought, which led to the more 'self-realization'/'acceptance' type stories, rather than ones with love-struck heroines.


What was the target age group for MINX? I was under the impression that it was for middle grades, which never seemed right given the story content. Burn Out had themes that were way beyond middle grade level, and even borderline in the YA realm. (Actually it reminded me of Ellen Hopkins' poem-novels: late high school/early college territory.) The one about the girl who lost a leg to a shark attack was also too mature for what I understood the target audience to be. Really the stories seemed geared towards college age girls.

wandering-dreamer wrote:
most YA authors (what I read) are novelists, not comic artists, and even when they do adapt them, ick (I'm thinking of the Pendragon and Artemis Fowl adaptations).
This was a problem, and remains so with non-MINX titles. Writing for comics is a totally different skill than writing straight prose. Going for an unknown author who specializes in comic scripts seems the better plan than banking on name recognition and getting a mediocre product.
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Barachem



Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:39 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
Some of you argue that the feminist movement should have done away with it all, but I think a lot of you are forgetting that the "feminist movement" happened in just the United States of America. Travel anywhere in the world, Europe especially, and you can tell an American girl on vacation out from the other girls. For example, Jeans and a t-shirt stick out like a sore thumb in Paris. The rest of the world still has a lot of influence of what we think is beauty, and it isn't about to change.


I live in the Netherlands, a country in Europe.
And as far as i know women here do wear jeans and t-shirts.
Europe has distinctly different countries, it's not a homogeneous mass, just like the US and North America aren't.

littlegreenwolf wrote:
But either way, yeah, it comes down to genetics and attracting a mate. You want to be the good looking, attractive one, and you want to attract your pick of the opposite sex. If you're unlucky and have been born with what some would call an ugly face, yeah, you're going to be shunned because that's not what the call of the wild is looking for.


According to evolutionary teachings that is.
Spare me the unnecessary lecture.
I reject the teaching and its utterly discriminating conclusions.
True, i'm more attracted to an in my eyes handsome woman than one who isn't, but behaviour, character and personality can make me turn away from the attractive ones and turn me to the unattractive ones.
Looks ARE just superficial and fade with time, character and personality are lasting in contrast.

littlegreenwolf wrote:
I really can't believe this is being argued. It's a sick psychological cycle that started with men, and has been ingrained in the minds of both, and its not going away no matter how much you yell its wrong. End of story. There's nothing to argue, and no, things have not changed.


If it can be stopped in an individual like me, it can be stopped in more humans, you're just giving up because the people in power give the illusion that this is an unstoppable cycle.
They're the ones propagating it through mass media, making the normal person be occupied with trivial and immature things like looking good to attract a mate, instead of learning to know who that person is.

littlegreenwolf wrote:
Can we get back on topic, because that's a heck of alot more interesting. Comics, wohoooo~ How about that Y: The Last Man? Not written by a woman, but drawn by one, and it sure has a lot of great female characters, especially since there's only one guy in the whole world.


Isn't that kinda like a harem comic then?
Seems that some minds do think alike, whether japanese or not.

enurtsol wrote:
That reminds me in anime, girls often have this oily shiny skin. Like smooth plastic from Barbie or RealDoll or those Akihabara figurines. Like they're always going for the perfect pantyhose look. A gold standard. Cool


That's sooo true and it does disturb me.
Well, the hunky/attractive males also have a tendency to be portrayed as shiny.
What i do find funny in some drawings of fanartists is the tendency to make ugly personas more attractive.
Like with the iconic fujoshi drawing:



Well, that looks quite attractive to me, a misrepresentation of reality.
Someone did get the great idea to make this drawing more realistic and we get an uglier but more realistic representation:



The underlying character and personality is the same, but the appearance is different.
Fascinating difference.
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abunai
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:22 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
Some of you argue that the feminist movement should have done away with it all, but I think a lot of you are forgetting that the "feminist movement" happened in just the United States of America.

Wrong. In fact, the concept of feminism (and the word "feminism") didn't even originate in the U.S.

littlegreenwolf wrote:
Travel anywhere in the world, Europe especially,

Which, obviously, you have not.

littlegreenwolf wrote:
For example, Jeans and a t-shirt stick out like a sore thumb in Paris.

Wrong.

littlegreenwolf wrote:
But either way, yeah, it comes down to genetics and attracting a mate. You want to be the good looking, attractive one, and you want to attract your pick of the opposite sex. If you're unlucky and have been born with what some would call an ugly face, yeah, you're going to be shunned because that's not what the call of the wild is looking for.

Superficial and immature, displaying ignorance of normal adult motivations. There are many more factors in choice of mate than mere surface appearance.

In fact, this whole post of yours is so wrong that it goes beyond normal ignorance. You must have really had to work at it to know this little about the rest of the world.

- abunai
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konkonsn



Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 172
Location: Illinois
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:54 pm Reply with quote
abunai wrote:
konkonsn wrote:
Peacocks attract visually for health reasons; better looking male means less disease.

I understand Gaëtan Dugas was a good-looking fellow...

- abunai
I associate "better-looking" with "more likely to carry STD".


It seems you took "better-looking" in a different way than I did; I was literally thinking "sickly" as not-good-looking.
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bazeye



Joined: 04 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:55 pm Reply with quote
Two things i found interesting about the discussion the girls had on ANN about beauty in the media.

Firstly their use of the term "loser" to describe certain men, i hate that term, when you analise it its so subjective and demeaning, also it always seems to me to be something that women say specifically about men, something to do with social Darwinism i expect, sorry girls but you are definately re-inforcing sexual stereotypes in my opinion.

Secondly the avatars they use were cute, thus reinforcing the idea that there cannot be ugly women in the cartoon world.....more re-inforcement ?
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littlegreenwolf



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:03 pm Reply with quote
Wow Abunai, thank you so much for you thoughtful, witty one-liner approach, because that format really helps in discussion, so much it borders on what’s usually called trolling.

If you need proof that I have traveled outside the country, I’ll be happy to scan the stamps in my passport and show you my dual citizenship papers with Canada. I was summarizing up basic ideals, sorry I didn’t know I had to write an essay to make sure you all understood where I was coming from.

And yeah, I know it’s a shallow attitude, but as much as people want to be morally righteous and claim looks don’t play a major part of attraction, the fact is they’re being unrealistic because looks have a LOT to do with it, and yes, I have this opinion is because of evolutionary theory. Is there something wrong with that? You can call keep calling it ignorance, and I’ll keep calling it realism.

I never claimed the feminist movement originated in the US. Feminism has more than likely been around since women have been able to use their brain. There are different definitions of feminism, and if you want, we can go into them so you can understand where I am coming from.

My IDEA of feminism is stemmed from the Feminine Mystique, considered to have helped start what some call the second wave of Feminism here in the United States. This is basically the idea that women don’t need a man and a family to label their life as meaningful. This is the basic idea that a women’s place isn’t necessarily at home doing the housework and popping out babies, and that we can get a bloody abortion if we do so need it. Their mascot is good ole Rosie the Riveter, a woman of WW2 who took up a man’s job an did a heck of a job, not at all caring about what she looked like or if she didn’t appear feminine on WW2 propaganda posters.

Obviously there was a first wave, and that was pretty much from the Suffragist. Example: Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Stanton who got us land rights and the right to vote. If they were to come across the woman of the 2nd wave, they’d probably think them heathens and murderers since they in general came from a very conservative Christian background, and obviously had different values than the 2nd wave. But one needed the other. Today though, feminist usually take one wave’s values over the other when they call themselves a feminist.

The First wave ideals are pretty much spread worldwide in western culture. The 2nd not so much. These two waves make up the general idea known as Anglo-American feminism, which in general is emphasizes masculinity in women to be shown as equals, and is also where I think is the reason why women who dress like I do are more accepted here in American than in Europe.

Now we come to the next type of Feminism called French Feminism, and no, it’s not limited to women in France. Where American Feminism is more focused on changing things at the social and political level. This “French” take on feminism believes that trying to achieve equality through masculinity is senseless since it’s a man’s world to begin with. Instead the system should accept the differences in general, and work together, and making it so being a woman or man doesn’t matter, and women should basically celebrate being women and what makes them different from men.

This article, opinionated as anything will be on this subject, takes a brief look at the European feminism movement vs. the ideals of the Anglo-American one, with Quinton Tarintino’s Death Proof as a major example of the differences between American and European ideals.

http://www.cafebabel.com/eng/article/22645/feminism-in-europe.html

The French Feminism movement seems to be the dominate mindset in Europe from what I’ve seen, excluding England. This is my opinion, and I’ll be the first to say I may be in the wrong, however you can’t really prove anything on this subject because there aren’t any facts to support either idea, which is why this whole argument showing up in this thread is so POINTLESS. These generalizations come down to cultural differences, and every woman has the right to her ideas, but this is what I see.

This leads down to my mention of sticking out like a sore thumb in Paris. I think the American concept of beauty is different from the European is because of the Anglo-American feminism focus on masculainity.

I admit, I don’t put makeup on very often, and I dress for comfort. I’m not a slob, and consider myself well groomed, I just don’t like getting up an hour or more early just to do my hair and makeup, and I don’t wear heels mainly because I’m already tall as it is. Compared to my co-workers, I’m a total tomboy who doesn’t give a damn what others perceive me as because I’ll be damned if I need a guy to make my life worthwhile, and this idea has caused a lot to label me as a lesbian even though I’m far from it. American girls are as diverse as any other nation’s population you look at, but apparently there’s something about my particular look that screams Anglo-American feminist idealology, aka The Feminst Mistiqe mantra.

I'm pulling from my experience abroad in Europe. I'm your stereotypical American mutt, and I've visited Amsterdam once, and I'm not saying jeans don't exist. Just that in general, jeans and sneakers vs. dressed up proportions were vasty different than what you usually see in America. For example, when I visited a coffeeshop in Amsterdam, the shop attendants had this little game where he would guess what country visitors were from since they get college students from all over the world. One of them guessed I was Canadian or American. I told him what I was, and asked how he knew. He told me straight out it was how I dressed and held myself. I wore jeans, sneakers, and no make-up, and was very vocal (aka loud). He went off to explain that European women usually don't act like North American girls. He was polite and told me there wasn't anything wrong with it, we're just different for the most part and it's obvious. This is of course one opinion, but it’s still one from a non-American guy.

With what he said in mind I was made even more aware of how different my appearance was from the local women when shortly after I visited Bruges, and then Paris especially. Most all the women I saw obviously not tourist touting around backpacks, were bird-thin, has perfect hair, and wore heels with cute little sundresses. Also makeup, so all and all they pretty much looked like they came walking out of a fashion magazine. I was dressed for comfort, being on vacation, but boy did I feel out of place shopping in a sweat shirt and jeans.In fact I got a bit paranoid about it to the point I purposely bought new shoes and a skirt so I didn’t stick out so bad as an American tourist, especially since at the time it wasn't really a good time to call yourself an American in Europe.

Being American, when I initially think of the feminist movement, I think about OUR (as in American) feminist movement. I’m sorry I gave the impression that feminist movements don’t exist outside of the US, that wasn’t my intention. I should have went into it more.


P.S. Y the Last Man could in a way be considered a harem comic if you think anything with a guy surrounded by women = harem, but it’s thoughtful, post-apocalyptic, and doesn’t remind me at all of Love Hina. Check it out sometime, it’s a great western comic, and I think the rights have been bought for either a movie or tv series.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:10 am Reply with quote
Barachem wrote:
ikillchicken: So according to your reasoning, someone with a deformed face should be shunned for being ugly.
Eugenics for the win. [quote shortened]


Oh...I'm sorry. You're going to have to leave now. I'm afraid that in order to use an internet forum you need to be able to read and seeing as you clearly didn't read my post, I can only conclude that you can not.

ikillchicken wrote:
Now of course, it is foolish to judge people solely on looks. That is because there are other important factors (in fact more important especially in the long run).


Yes. Obviously you shouldn't judge someone solely on their appearance. Yes. Obviously you shouldn't even just people primarily based on their looks. Yes. Obviously holding people to or trying to conform to unrealistic standards is bad. Yes. Obviously if you aren't good looking or even don't try to look good, it's not the end of the world. That. Is. Not. What. I'm. Saying.

You're really illustrating what I am saying perfectly though. People like you get so caught up ranting about...well...all the crap you've responded with here, that you seem to forget that at it's root, looking good is a good thing and it's also good for people to try and look good. Is it superficial? Yes. It's still a plus though. If anyone points that out though, you just go off on a big rant.

"I think people should have the freedom of choice with regards to their looks and their body"

Seriously? WTF? Where did I say anything even vaguely close to that people should be literally forced to look how they want?

littlegreenwolf wrote:
Can we get back on topic, because that's a heck of alot more interesting. Comics, wohoooo~ How about that Y: The Last Man? Not written by a woman, but drawn by one, and it sure has a lot of great female characters, especially since there's only one guy in the whole world.


This is something we can all agree on though. Last Man is awesome.
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LostPhrack



Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:22 am Reply with quote
Princess_Irene wrote:
What was the target age group for MINX? I was under the impression that it was for middle grades, which never seemed right given the story content. Burn Out had themes that were way beyond middle grade level, and even borderline in the YA realm. (Actually it reminded me of Ellen Hopkins' poem-novels: late high school/early college territory.) The one about the girl who lost a leg to a shark attack was also too mature for what I understood the target audience to be. Really the stories seemed geared towards college age girls.

Teen girls. All of them. Really.
Quote:
DC SVP Karen Berger on Minx

ICV2: What is the target age of the Minx line?

Karen Berger: 13 to 18.

I only read one Minx book, New York Four, and I thought it was ok but it didn't blow me away. Then again I'm not the target audience so hey. For the most part I got a general sense of "meh" regarding most of the initial books from the online community. Things seemed like they were starting to turn around towards the end. I definitely remember Water Baby, the shark bite book, getting good reviews from several places.

Maybe if it had more time the line would have clicked. Hard to say. I do know they had a contract with some marketing company to advertise and promote in magazines aimed at teens girls and whatnot.
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Princess_Irene
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:23 am Reply with quote
LostPhrack wrote:

Teen girls. All of them. Really.
Quote:
DC SVP Karen Berger on Minx
ICV2: What is the target age of the Minx line?
Karen Berger: 13 to 18.



Wow. 13? They sure missed that boat. It sounds to me like part of the problem (apart from mediocrity, though that may be my taste alone) was that the target base was too broad.
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Shichimi



Joined: 12 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:19 am Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
...I was dressed for comfort, being on vacation, but boy did I feel out of place shopping in a sweat shirt and jeans. In fact I got a bit paranoid about it to the point I purposely bought new shoes and a skirt so I didn’t stick out so bad as an American tourist, especially since at the time it wasn't really a good time to call yourself an American in Europe.


Rolling Eyes At the risk of going a little OT here, us Europeans don't sling insults at Americans in my experience. And those that do? Well, every country has a$$holes. I think it's a fair assessment to say that most Europeans are not anti-American, just anti-American foreign policy. But anyway.

Maybe I'm being simplistic here, but does it really matter? I mean really? When I watch movies and read comics, especially superhero stuff, it's par for the course that men will be ruggedly handsome and girls will be stupidly hot.

That doesn't mean that I expect girls in my real life relationships to obsess over their looks; quite the opposite. I can't stand people who preen themselves, and would prefer a laid-back girl with a sharp mind and filthy laugh any day of the week. Smile
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littlegreenwolf



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:45 am Reply with quote
Shichimi wrote:
Rolling Eyes At the risk of going a little OT here, us Europeans don't sling insults at Americans in my experience. And those that do? Well, every country has a$$holes. I think it's a fair assessment to say that most Europeans are not anti-American, just anti-American foreign policy. But anyway.


Oh yeah, I know. The whole "I'm not American, I'm actually Canadian! Anime smallmouth + sweatdrop " attitude took over while in France. The other places I visited I was fine with calling myself American. But when I went to France it was not long after the whole Freedom Fries incident a few years back, and on top of that my mother was embarrassing the crap out of me with constantly getting into arguments over the language barrier, making me not at all a proud representative of my country.

"Mom! Don't tell them you're American! You'll make them hate Americans even more! Manners get you places here, not aggressive demands and yelling!"

"He won't serve me what I want!"

"That's because he doesn't understand you!"

"He calls this little thing a coffee! I want a real sized coffee!! You don't serve coffee in an expresso cup!"

"Well they apparently do in France!"

I have since learned to try to avoid traveling abroad with my mother when they don't speak a language she is fluent in.
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ANN_Bamboo
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:58 pm Reply with quote
littlegreenwolf wrote:
Most all the women I saw obviously not tourist touting around backpacks, were bird-thin, has perfect hair, and wore heels with cute little sundresses. Also makeup, so all and all they pretty much looked like they came walking out of a fashion magazine. I was dressed for comfort, being on vacation, but boy did I feel out of place shopping in a sweat shirt and jeans.In fact I got a bit paranoid about it to the point I purposely bought new shoes and a skirt so I didn’t stick out so bad as an American tourist, especially since at the time it wasn't really a good time to call yourself an American in Europe.


I actually had a very similar experience this past summer while I was in China. The women there are very well groomed, and very feminine. They typically go out wearing makeup, sundresses, heels. When I was there, I stuck out-- and I'm Chinese. Knowing it was going to be humid, I only brought some knee-length shorts and a some t-shirts.

My grandmother actually chastised me for dressing like a boy, and every time we met up with relatives, she apologized to them, saying that I had only brought clothes that I typically go to work in. They all ragged on me for dressing like a boy.

When I went to Japan last year, I also noticed that the women there dressed very stylishly, whereas I was rocking the casual, disheveled jeans/tshirt look.

But you know what, there's a common thread amongst all this-- and it's us Americans. I think we're just not classy. ;p
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Princess_Irene
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:41 pm Reply with quote
All of this talk about appearances and feminism, plus an afternoon with Rose Hip Rose has made me wonder - how should/do we look at women in action series? Or more specifically, in girls with guns series. I'm thinking of characters like Kasumi and Natsuki from the aforementioned manga, Revy from Black Lagoon, the heroines of Burst Angel, and the Dirty Pair - busty women who wear little and carry a big gun. Are they offensive? On the one hand, they clearly have a lot of agency, can take care of themselves, and kick major butt. On the other hand, they're male-oriented eye candy bouncing and wriggling their way across the page or screen accompanied by upskirts, downshirts, and plenty of open-leg shots. Can we overlook the one for the other? Are they examples of feminism or of chauvinism? Anyone have a thought?
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Shichimi



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:38 pm Reply with quote
It's the whole Lara Croft thing isn't it? :sigh: I think really it's chauvinism dressed up as feminism. These characters dress like hookers and invariably sport jabbercrackers the size of small melons - but look! They can look after themselves and know how to handle a gun, so that's all right then. Rolling Eyes
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