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NEWS: Right Stuf Adds Aria the Origination & Arietta, Antique Bakery, Junjou Romantica

poehitman wrote:

So I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not paying a dime for what is essentially a glorified fansub. If you want me to pay money for the series, you need to offer me something that I feel is worth paying for. And that is an english dub track.

Okay, so clearly you see no intrinsic value in anime itself. That's fine, we get it... just go buy the stuff that is dubbed and let your wallet do the talking, because complaining up a storm every time one of these sub-only releases comes up is pointless. But I have to hand it to the "sub-only DVDs are like fansubs on disc" crowd -- they've come up with a way to simultaneously insult the work of fansubbers and DVD subtitlers.

And I didn't say the sub only release were exactly the same as releases. Hence the term "GLORIFIED fansubs". They are different. Different enough to warrant spending a ridiculous amount of money on them when I have already seen the exact same thing? No.

And the anime does have intrinsic value. The same intrinsic value as the shows I tape off cable or broadcast tv. Do you see everyone going out and buying every tv show they ever saw on television once it's available on DVD? It's exactly what you think all anime fans should do.

I don't know why you think I was insulting fansubbers, cause I wasn't. And if enough people complain from the dub fans, maybe they will realize that their plan of releasing glorified fansubs and ruining the chance of getting a dub done is pissing off a lot of people. They'll never know people are unhappy with it if people don't complain.

The change in this type of selling creates a conundrum for the US distributor - they are in a position where the license fees, generally per-episode, remain fairly high, but they have eliminated the initial revenue stream from the single-DVDs that were released in the past, in a market where total sales per unit are in decline. This has led to some hard decisions having to be made, such as whether titles can be dubbed, the type of packaging to be used, changes in authoring to drop replication cost, and so on. Some fans are not happy with this end result, which I'll get into in my next section. Still, to compete in the market you have to remain lean, and it's tough to do so when margins are in decline. Prices will continue to fall. Something has to give here, whether it be in production costs, licensing costs, or just in overhead.

And I didn't say the sub only release were exactly the same as releases. Hence the term "GLORIFIED fansubs". They are different. Different enough to warrant spending a ridiculous amount of money on them when I have already seen the exact same thing? No.

And the anime does have intrinsic value. The same intrinsic value as the shows I tape off cable or broadcast tv. Do you see everyone going out and buying every tv show they ever saw on television once it's available on DVD? It's exactly what you think all anime fans should do.

Unlike US TV, anime generally doesn't make any money off advertising, so buying DVDs is the best/only way that we as fans can contribute to the system that allows the stuff to be made.

poehitman wrote:

I don't know why you think I was insulting fansubbers, cause I wasn't. And if enough people complain from the dub fans, maybe they will realize that their plan of releasing glorified fansubs and ruining the chance of getting a dub done is pissing off a lot of people. They'll never know people are unhappy with it if people don't complain.

I'll break it down for you: many fansubbers and fansub enthusiasts don't hold DVD subs in very high esteem. At least for good fansubs, the work put into timing, typesetting, presentation, and subtitle writing/editing (and karaoke, but that's a DVD limitation issue) easily eclipses the work done on average DVDs. So for the people who've done that fansubbing work, I can see how they'd take offense to being directly compared with DVD releases. Some sub-only releases like Media-Blasters' Sentimental Journey would be laughed out of the fansub world if they were released as fansubs.

I'm pretty sure Nozomi is aware of the complaints by now, given that they've come up every single time their company's name is so much as whispered around here. Shawne Kleckner even made reference to it in his AX keynote speech:

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The change in this type of selling creates a conundrum for the US distributor - they are in a position where the license fees, generally per-episode, remain fairly high, but they have eliminated the initial revenue stream from the single-DVDs that were released in the past, in a market where total sales per unit are in decline. This has led to some hard decisions having to be made, such as whether titles can be dubbed, the type of packaging to be used, changes in authoring to drop replication cost, and so on. Some fans are not happy with this end result, which I'll get into in my next section. Still, to compete in the market you have to remain lean, and it's tough to do so when margins are in decline. Prices will continue to fall. Something has to give here, whether it be in production costs, licensing costs, or just in overhead.

Quote:

And I didn't say the sub only release were exactly the same as releases. Hence the term "GLORIFIED fansubs". They are different. Different enough to warrant spending a ridiculous amount of money on them when I have already seen the exact same thing? No.

Please define "ridiculous." A $50 MSRP for 13 eps can drop as low as $27 at typical TRSI sale prices. That's about $2 per episode, the going iTunes rate for US TV episodes. Considering that the Japanese would pay $50 or more for a mere 2 episodes, and most imported goods tend to be more expensive outside their place of origin, I can hardly see $27 for 13 sub-only eps as a bad deal. And you haven't always "seen the exact same thing." Ask people who saw Moonphase on fansubs and DVD if they got the exact same thing.

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And the anime does have intrinsic value. The same intrinsic value as the shows I tape off cable or broadcast tv. Do you see everyone going out and buying every tv show they ever saw on television once it's available on DVD? It's exactly what you think all anime fans should do.

But it's not the same. Do you pay for Japanese over-the-air, cable, or satellite broadcasts? Do you record those episodes via Tivo/DVR/VHS/etc.? Do you get them from a close personal friend who does those things? Fansub distro member "Phat_pip3_9001" doesn't count. Fansubs aren't part of the "natural order" like shows taped off domestic cable/broadcast.

And you're extrapolating too far. Do I think everyone should buy every anime or other TV show they see on TV once it's on home video? No. I certainly don't do so myself. But I do think there's something wrong with really liking or loving Subtitled Anime #4902, and then deciding it has no monetary value due to the lack of an English audio track. Unlike US TV, anime generally doesn't make any money off advertising, so buying DVDs is the best/only way that we as fans can contribute to the system that allows the stuff to be made.

In the same vein, what does the sub-only version offer me that a fansub doesn't? I'm not supporting the creator of the anime. My money doesn't go to that company or that person, it goes to the company that licensed it in the US. There's no way I can legally pay for anime in a format that has a language that I can understand that I can directly support the creators that I know of.

If a company is only going to release sub-only anime, I WANT them to go out of business.

I don't particularly like watching a subtitled anime, but I will if it's the only way to see it. I much rather prefer watching it dubbed. So you want me to pay money to watch something in a way I don't particularly like watching it to begin with. The only reason I watch it subbed is because I can watch it for free with a fansub to see if I'm going to give it a shot when it gets licensed AND DUBBED. If you aren't going to dub it, I'm not paying for it. I don't like watching subtitled anime because I can't read very fast, so for me it takes away from the experience of watching the anime if I have to keep rewinding the video to read what I missed. But if it's the only way to see an anime, I'll do it. Why would I pay money to watch an anime like that?

It's the same concept as why I would purchase a DVD of a television show I would like. I don't buy it to "support the creators of the show". I buy it because it's in a format that doesn't degrade over time and it takes up less space than a shelf full of VHS tapes. It offers me something that my taped version does not that I'm willing to pay for.

In the same vein, what does the sub-only version offer me that a fansub doesn't? I'm not supporting the creator of the anime. My money doesn't go to that company or that person, it goes to the company that licensed it in the US. There's no way I can legally pay for anime in a format that has a language that I can understand that I can directly support the creators that I know of.

And I WANT more dubbed anime. If I pay for sub-only anime, I'm giving the licensing company the idea that I'm willing to pay for subbed anime. If I do that, they he's going to keep on releasing anime as sub-only. Why would I do that? If a company is only going to release sub-only anime, I WANT them to go out of business.