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ZiharkXVI wrote:

The "piracy will never end" argument makes me laugh. So what, you expect the publishers to leave Onemanga and Mangafox alone just because of that? It's better for them to make piracy diffult so that casual manga readers who have no idea what the heck IRC is will run off to Borders.

You don't really believe that do you? You actually think the internet community lacks the sophistication to discover IRC?

Or you really think the people who enjoy reading online suddenly want a lot of manga volumes?

You can't make piracy difficult. You can kill a few pirates. But the only way you beat them is by doing what they do and THEN knocking them out. They provide a superior service ATM. And that will be the one that people want. Not because they want their manga free (although that was nice), but because they want their manga PERIOD.

You go into your local Borders and you don't find even half of the series you can find online. Unless your talking a manga like one of the WSJ ones - you're pretty much left looking at last year's stuff.

Exactly my point. People are not suddenly going to start buying manga legally because a site was shut down. Most of the people that can buy manga legally already do. The one's that don't but, the reason for that is they can't, either they live in a country that doesn't sell manga or they lack disposable income. These people will either learn to use IRC or stop reading manga, that's all. And that doesn't help the publishers. I've already heard more than one person say that since they can't easily pre-read manga, they won't be buying anymore new stuff, which only hurts the publishers.

Kamen Ryter (Ichigo) wrote:

@ ABCBTom
im sure some care,
and hey if they wan't it down then take it down.
there are usualy two different types of artists.

the guy whos all "woah people like this? people are paying money? hey thats cool but as long as i got enough to keep doing this, thats really all i need. now the money is cool, and welcomed. but he's more amazed and glad a people are even bothering to use his stuff.

then theres the:
look what i have created. you should be greatfull that im doing this for you. you can have it... MAKE SURE YOU PAY FIRST. or else. i'll sue you. i might even stop. you wouldn't want that now would you. gimmie your money. because i deserve it. Artist. in the first case the money serves the Art, and in the second case the other way around.

There's no grey area between the two? Part of "I'm so honored to be able to do this for a living" is the fact that the mangaka gets to do it for a living. That implies earning money. You never get to hear about the mangaka who have to give up and get a day job before they get their careers started, because they can't get the money to live on.

It's not all about greed. Most people 18 and over work at some sort of job. Are they all greedy and just about the money? Many times, jobs are just about the money, because you need money to live, to pay for the basic necessities of life. Some super-star mangaka are rich, but most are not. If their titles don't sell, the publishers will cut them loose. Their series won't see completion. They may have to end up getting an office job.

I see a lot of bemoaning greed, but it's always the publishers, editors, and mangaka who are accused of being selfish and just caring about the money. What about all of the people who read and watch without supporting the industry. Why have sales in manga and anime gone down while its popularity has gone up? Why did Kodansha lose billions of yen? Why are mangaka having trouble paying assistants and making ends meet? Why are studios like Gonzo and Madhouse in financial trouble?

Anime is more popular than ever, but the industry is struggling. Why is this happening if all of these "fans" are supporting the industry with their money?

LastPage 3 wrote:

ZiharkXVI wrote:

The "piracy will never end" argument makes me laugh. So what, you expect the publishers to leave Onemanga and Mangafox alone just because of that? It's better for them to make piracy diffult so that casual manga readers who have no idea what the heck IRC is will run off to Borders.

You don't really believe that do you? You actually think the internet community lacks the sophistication to discover IRC?

Or you really think the people who enjoy reading online suddenly want a lot of manga volumes?

You can't make piracy difficult. You can kill a few pirates. But the only way you beat them is by doing what they do and THEN knocking them out. They provide a superior service ATM. And that will be the one that people want. Not because they want their manga free (although that was nice), but because they want their manga PERIOD.

You go into your local Borders and you don't find even half of the series you can find online. Unless your talking a manga like one of the WSJ ones - you're pretty much left looking at last year's stuff.

Exactly my point. People are not suddenly going to start buying manga legally because a site was shut down. Most of the people that can buy manga legally already do. The one's that don't but, the reason for that is they can't, either they live in a country that doesn't sell manga or they lack disposable income. These people will either learn to use IRC or stop reading manga, that's all. And that doesn't help the publishers. I've already heard more than one person say that since they can't easily pre-read manga, they won't be buying anymore new stuff, which only hurts the publishers.

few people's opinion don't make it fact. I think the manga sale will go up when all the illegal websites take down all the manga.

If the sale doesn't go up then you are right. if it goes up, you are wrong.

Why have sales in manga and anime gone down while its popularity has gone up? Why did Kodansha lose billions of yen? Why are mangaka having trouble paying assistants and making ends meet?

Bad economic decisions in the publisher's business. No more, no less. We could go into a long digression as to why things are the way they are now, but that is almost besides the point. This is the reality of the situation the publishers now find themselves in. Perhaps they'd like to stop blaming other people for once and consider they might be responsible.

few people's opinion don't make it fact. I think the manga sale will go up when all the illegal websites take down all the manga.

If the sale doesn't go up then you are right. if it goes up, you are wrong.

Oh they'll go up temporarily. Of that I'm sure. Those people who are already hooked on ESTABLISHED series may go out and purchase the actual manga to keep on.

But they will go down long term as people are not kept abreast of new series and the availability is limited to what they find on a bookshelf. Or the people will become sophisticated enough to realize they can download the stuff.

Either way, there will be a negative impact on this industry. Why do you think the companies took so long to even bother trying to shut down the scan sites? Cause they KNOW it already.

ZiharkXVI wrote:

Bad economic decisions in the publisher's business. No more, no less. We could go into a long digression as to why things are the way they are now, but that is almost besides the point. This is the reality of the situation the publishers now find themselves in. Perhaps they'd like to stop blaming other people for once and consider they might be responsible.

no, there are not blaming on other people. They just execute their right. They have the right to the manga. they can do whatever they want with them. IF they don't want their manga on other random website. they have the right to force them to take it down.

If those illegal websites try to fight them in court, they will just lose.
if doesn't matter how you feel if they are going to make money or not. it's their property.

why there are so many new people here today? are they mad? then don't support this industry.

ZiharkXVI wrote:

But they will go down long term as people are not kept abreast of new series and the availability is limited to what they find on a bookshelf. Or the people will become sophisticated enough to realize they can download the stuff.

So, once again, at the same time:

1. Piracy won't be stamped out because fans will move on to other, harder to fight sources of illegally getting content.

2. Nobody will be able to find out about any new series at all, because the new generation of pirates established in #1 will not share any information about the titles they are reading. Manga will gain no new fans because of this.

3. Manga companies are currently doing nothing to fill the void, and are not investigating solutions to provide manga on the internet in such a way that would seemingly solve all of these problems, despite my hearing a different story from sources actually within those companies.

The future is bleak indeed.

ZiharkXVI wrote:

Why have sales in manga and anime gone down while its popularity has gone up? Why did Kodansha lose billions of yen? Why are mangaka having trouble paying assistants and making ends meet?

Bad economic decisions in the publisher's business. No more, no less. We could go into a long digression as to why things are the way they are now, but that is almost besides the point. This is the reality of the situation the publishers now find themselves in. Perhaps they'd like to stop blaming other people for once and consider they might be responsible.

few people's opinion don't make it fact. I think the manga sale will go up when all the illegal websites take down all the manga.

If the sale doesn't go up then you are right. if it goes up, you are wrong.

Oh they'll go up temporarily. Of that I'm sure. Those people who are already hooked on ESTABLISHED series may go out and purchase the actual manga to keep on.

But they will go down long term as people are not kept abreast of new series and the availability is limited to what they find on a bookshelf. Or the people will become sophisticated enough to realize they can download the stuff.

Either way, there will be a negative impact on this industry. Why do you think the companies took so long to even bother trying to shut down the scan sites? Cause they KNOW it already.

The collapse of the anime industry in America happened way before the recession. The person to blame for the pathetic state of anime/manga in America are selfish people who think only about themselves, care only about themselves, and are children on the inside.

You make excuses without backing things up you blame a recession that happened years after the collapse of geneon. You blame a recession for fans not buying series released in 2003 and 2004. The collapse of the anime industry happened because fans would download anime, burn it to a CD RW and never buy it.

Stop making excuses for your actions, no real fan is going to buy your BS.

The idea that fansubs and scanslations help out the industry went away when Gundam Seed bombed.

Well in my case, this really doesn't do the publishers any good. The series I viewed online, Negima mainly, I did buy as it came out.

Still I can see why they want to remove Scanlations from the market. A free source of manga will always beat one that costs money. And it is legally within their right to send out Cease and Desist orders. That said...I don't see why they need to put down these sources completely. In the cases of things that have very little chance of getting liscenced, or for series that are long out of print, I think that shutting down sites like OneManga and attacking Scanalators hurts the industry rather than helps it.

Last edited by ZiharkXVI on Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

no, there are not blaming on other people. They just execute their right. They have the right to the manga. they can do whatever they want with them. IF they don't want their manga on other random website. they have the right to force them to take it down.

If those illegal websites try to fight them in court, they will just lose.
if doesn't matter how you feel if they are going to make money or not. it's their property.

You haven't been reading their responses lately have you? They blame scanlation sites for loss of profits. This is their pretext to explain their failing business structure.

You see, they aren't complaining to us. They're complaining to their investors who are asking the tough questions, "Why aren't you making money?"

And rather than suggest that they themselves have no viable business strategy to deal with the expanding market, they cry "Wolf!" and blame it on piracy.

Every industry went through the exact same scenario. Blindsided by the modern ease of availability, music, movie, tv, periodical, and even now print must realize that old business models are subject to change.

You talk alot about rights in your post. I assume you know what you're talking about? Legal rights? That it?

Lol - your talking about property....no, not property. You're talking about copyrights. I find it amusing that you like to preach on what their legal rights are as if I'm suppose to feel ashamed that its illegal. Why should I? I'm not stealing anything from anyone if I go online and read a manga that I can't pick up in Borders.

Not even a cent.

But do go on, talk about rights. They'd have to show they are suffering some irreparable damage. I can't see as if they can show that. As I said before, would manga be this popular if it weren't for the scanlation sites? Would the manga industry have fallen sooner, rather than later?

The collapse of the anime industry in America happened way before the recession. The person to blame for the pathetic state of anime/manga in America are selfish people who think only about themselves, care only about themselves, and are children on the inside.

You make excuses without backing things up you blame a recession that happened years after the collapse of geneon. You blame a recession for fans not buying series released in 2003 and 2004. The collapse of the anime industry happened because fans would download anime, burn it to a CD RW and never buy it.

Stop making excuses for your actions, no real fan is going to buy your BS.

The idea that fansubs and scanslations help out the industry went away when Gundam Seed bombed.

Recession? Did I say RECESSION? Where did I say that? Point me to the phrase?

You didn't even read my posts. You're not even worth replying to.

No real fan? I suppose you assume that I am an avid pirate? Ahoy there? Would it surprise you to know I have bought far more anime than I have ever watched downloaded? Childish indeed - that is your reply.

There are thousands of books published in the US alone. Word-of-mouth, promotion, previews, and advertising get them somewhere. Nearly all the manga series I collect are not known to me because of scanlations. Maybe I bought them on a whim, maybe I read good reviews, maybe it just looked neat. It's not as hard as people think to stay updated on licensing news and find out what fits them. I buy books without the benefit of a free preview all the time.

Not to mention, there are plenty of new digital platforms being developed even now. The Square Enix one was just recently announced.

People should respect the rights of an author, even if it's not something they can find legally in English. It only makes you inconsiderate if you brush off what they want. They created it. They should be able to control it. It's there series, and if they don't want it online, they should be able to say so and have it removed.

People should respect the rights of an author, even if it's not something they can find legally in English. It only makes you inconsiderate if you brush off what they want. They created it. They should be able to control it. It's there series, and if they don't want it online, they should be able to say so and have it removed.

>___>

I think you are making the assumption that publishers are the authors? I've already delved into the stark difference. No need to do so further.

Regardless, you make a fautly comparison to the US publishing industry to the Japanese manga publishing one. Misnomer and you should know better.

Quote:

There are thousands of books published in the US alone. Word-of-mouth, promotion, previews, and advertising get them somewhere. Nearly all the manga series I collect are not known to me because of scanlations. Maybe I bought them on a whim, maybe I read good reviews, maybe it just looked neat. It's not as hard as people think to stay updated on licensing news and find out what fits them. I buy books without the benefit of a free preview all the time.

Yeah. Most of those thousands are ignored for a small group of front runners. Trust me, it's hard being a writer and you need all the publicity you can get.

Look I'm not saying that liscenced manga should stay online. And if a Japanese artist specifically requsts their work be taken down, it should. But if they aren't saying anything and there isn't any liscence, then it should not matter and Scanalators should do as they wish. It increases the notability of the property, which it might not otherwise get.

Why do the rise in piracy coincide with a large drop in users? Answer me that, you explain it's because the publishing conpany are making bad "economic decisions" but you have not yet explained how you can make the millions of dollars online while competing with a free service.

I have asked countless people that but no one has ever explained how you can compete with free. The first step to getting healing the industry in America is to get rid of the cancer eating away at the industry maybe then the newly announced Square Enix service can actually suceed.

ZiharkXVI wrote:

You actually think the internet community lacks the sophistication to discover IRC?

You actually believe all 20m+ OneManga viewers will all act as one single herd and all do the same thing?

These are language traps: the language lets us talk about "the internet community" in the singular, and when talking about a single thing, it often makes a single decision and does a single thing.

But the reality is that 20m people will react in all sorts of ways. Some have always been using the manga viewing sites and IRC and torrent downloads side by side. Some have been using manga viewing sites because its easier but will quickly get up to speed on downloading. Some won't bother and will just shift to the next bootleg manga viewing site then the next, and as the main ones with the deep back catalogs shut down one after another in the next couple of months, they will shift to the legit manga viewing site or sites that will be setting up shortly.

ZiharkXVI wrote:

As I said before, would manga be this popular if it weren't for the scanlation sites? Would the manga industry have fallen sooner, rather than later?

Popularity. Doesn't. Matter. If anything, it probably contributed to the anime and manga bubbles because silly people thought they could actually sell fans stuff they claim to have an interest in. This is not a popularity contest. Art doesn't get created from well-wishes and stardust. Going to bed at night with warm feelings in your heart doesn't get series written, printed, licensed, or digitally distributed.

Manufacturing and production often deals with what are called economies of scale. When you produce more of a product, it actually becomes cheaper to produce one additional unit. Do you know why Naruto volumes are cheaper than most Dark Horse manga volumes? Because Naruto sells more, and thus can be sold at a lower per-unit price. Why are there more shonen series available in English than josei series? Because shonen series sell, and josei series do not. Why don't companies take risks on older shojo titles? Look at the sales figures for Swan or From Eroica With Love.

Most of fan problems with the US industry could actually be solved by more, and not less fan support. Selection would go up while prices would go down. But this all revolves around money, not popularity.

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