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CCSYueh wrote:

bonfire123 wrote:

with anime, the pickings are extremely slim as to what can be found on an american television channel while japanese people have much more lucrative options in this respect.

see where I'm going with this?

"I want all the stuff I get where I live & I want all your stuff"

We had a fairly popular local radio show. People were always saying stuff like they missed the show so much since they moved out of the area or when they got shipped off to Iraq. Some would actually record the show & send it to the servicemen (which the show didn't mind because like much of San Diego, they support the troops). The show did the streaming on the radio so lots of former listeners got to listen again-yeah!

See where I'm going with this?

The Station they worked at (Clearchannel) decided to save a buck & took them off the air at the end of 2009 so NONE of us could listen to them. They had been on over a decade & were like the #1 show.

Did you expect that?

Actually a smaller station has just brought them back, but they're missing one of their crew (apparently contractual. She might be on later)
Yes it sucks when stuff gets cancelled, but just as often it gets cancelled in Japan. As wonderful as 12 Kingdoms was, it had the run shorted by the Japanese station.

{REMOVED}

Actually, Mangafox removed a lot of it's licensed content. Onemanga shut itself down, and Animesuki doesn't list anything that's liscensed (or that the distributors asked it to take down). I know there are probably tons of sites that you can use to refute that, but those are a few examples of fansub/scanlation sites trying to do the right thing.

I agree with you; i think that the people who gloat that only stupid people pay for anime are irritating to the highest degree. I pay for anime; I pay for manga-because i enjoy both. However, when something is not available through a lisenced distributor in the US, i do download. Do i feel bad about it? No, because when the series finally does get lisenced (take Bamboo Blade or Rental Magica) i take it off my computer and buy a legit copy. And until US distributors either simulcast or offer on DVD the same that's being produced, i'll probably continue to do it-because there are shows that, if i hadn't downloaded, i wouldn't know about-and that's a shame, because those were really good shows, in my opinion.

CCSYueh wrote:

bonfire123 wrote:

with anime, the pickings are extremely slim as to what can be found on an american television channel while japanese people have much more lucrative options in this respect.

see where I'm going with this?

"I want all the stuff I get where I live & I want all your stuff"

We had a fairly popular local radio show. People were always saying stuff like they missed the show so much since they moved out of the area or when they got shipped off to Iraq. Some would actually record the show & send it to the servicemen (which the show didn't mind because like much of San Diego, they support the troops). The show did the streaming on the radio so lots of former listeners got to listen again-yeah!

See where I'm going with this?

The Station they worked at (Clearchannel) decided to save a buck & took them off the air at the end of 2009 so NONE of us could listen to them. They had been on over a decade & were like the #1 show.

Did you expect that?

Actually a smaller station has just brought them back, but they're missing one of their crew (apparently contractual. She might be on later)
Yes it sucks when stuff gets cancelled, but just as often it gets cancelled in Japan. As wonderful as 12 Kingdoms was, it had the run shorted by the Japanese station.

Comparing anime to DSC? You sir, have made my day.

I don't have much to add to the favorite drama topic, I don't steal, I don't like thieves, and I don't care how they want to rationalize it.

As for e-readers, I can chime in a bit here. On a whim (I had amazon credit) I bought a yaoi volume for Kindle to read on my iPhone. As I said above, I don't read scanlations so I wasn't sure how much I would like digital but it was alright. Besides some major interface flaws (I want to be able to turn my phone landscape and have the page fit to width not fit to screen) it was a sufficiently enjoyable reading experience for a phone.

If I was to buy an e-reader for manga-use, I would buy an iPad because I want color. It hurts enough to see monochrome printings of color pages, at least electronically the pages don't cost extra. Also, since iPad offers apps for iBooks, Kindle, Borders E-Books, Nook, Zinio etc you have the best chance of actually getting the content you want.

I think something the width of iPad will be what people will want to read manga on.

For me, they basically need to make a double screen e-reader, or a single screen, foldable e-reader. I have seen tech being worked on that are trying for foldable screens, so it could happen soon.

Following responses to my post last night, I shall now propose a more expanded version of what Brian implied, in accordance with how he has been interpreted by Myaow. I add a supplementary third condition to account for CCSYueh's expectations.

To "do one's job", whatsoever this job is, one must:

Purchase the locally-available titles that one likes or wishes to see, without purchasing titles in which no such interest is taken.
Acquire such a liking or interest through reading descriptive and evaluative articles or making discussion, in case no legal means of previewing a given work directly is available.
Import foreign copies of locally-unavailable titles that are either liked or wished to be seen, or else wait for them to become available.

I now have four questions to ask regarding these imperatives.

First: do the relevant contributors to this thread accept these principles, or have I accounted for their input inadequately? If so, I request that everything following herefrom is disregarded, and that the mistakes I have made are duly corrected.

Second: is the fulfillment of b) necessary, provided a) is adhered to? That is to say, can those who do not always use legitimate means to preview works still be said to "do their job" — in the loose sense in which the phrase was used in the article — provided they still purchase everything they come to appreciate?

Third: if c) is not fulfilled but a) still is, who, if anyone, is harmed by such partial adherence, and how do they come to be so harmed? Lest this question be misunderstood, I must stress that I only ask it in the case of theorised subjects who adhere to a), as was assumed in the prior question.

Forth: are the correct answers to the second and third questions dependant upon any posits of prescriptive ethics, or can such questions be truly answered without reference to any such posits?

(In order to avert certain standard responses to these questions, I must note that I have not assumed any such thing as an "entitlement" borne by any anime fans. I urge respondents not to bring to my attention the fact that nobody is entitled to view anime, unless they can demonstrate how a lack of entitlement to act in a certain way ipso facto renders such an action unacceptable.)

Re: Manga on E-Readers.

It sounds great in theory. But having read a few manga on my Kindle, I can say with some certainty that some improvements need to be made to the formatting to make it feasible, at least on Kindle. The type is so small I could barely see it, which didn't make for a very enjoyable experience.

answerman wrote:

Not to break your bubble or anything, Lise, but wasn't five the magic number?

Monty Python has provided the definitive answer to this timeless question:

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And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it." Amen.

If it's in the Book of Armaments, it's good enough for me. If episode 3 hasn't set the hook, I'm moving on to the next stream or DVD.

We now return you to the discussion in progress...

Your reaction to that Flake of the Week video was perfect. I was in tears laughing literally xDD

On the subject of supporting The Thing you love; Brian had a point in people no caring enough to buy the anime/manga to show their support for th industry. Now I know people will download anime/manga, even I have, but if I think its good enough then if it gets licenced I will buy it and give the store and company my money so they can make a profit. In craptacular economic time we need buy even just a volume to keep it running. If we don't then we can bid farewill to anime/manga in America. Besides what we shouldn't be giving money to are Fortune 500 and 1000 companies that put us in this mess. If we have more expendible income then we would have wall to wall anime/manga.

I think renting anime is supporting the industry as well, no? Also, you have online subscriptions like on The Anime Network.

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Or even without the gimmicks, being reliable for providing a good quality product rather than dropping a series halfway through (many of ADV's manga releases) or releasing things of substandard quality (more than a few of my own Funimation DVD's have pretty bad sound quality).

How I hope this wouldn't be so true.

Zin5ki wrote:

Second: is the fulfillment of b) necessary, provided a) is adhered to? That is to say, can those who do not always use legitimate means to preview works still be said to "do their job" — in the loose sense in which the phrase was used in the article — provided they still purchase everything they come to appreciate?

Part of the issue here is whether the act of consuming it illegally supports and encourages the bootlegging, making it more prominent and making it less likely that others will buy the manga or anime or otherwise obtain it legally.

That is, if someone is doing no harm now to later do good, there is a strong case there that its "good enough".

If someone is doing harm now to do later good, that's a far harder to defend course of action.

Clearly previewing manga on a site with advertising revenue is a no-no, whether or not you later buy the manga. You are directly providing revenue to help keep the bootleg site running.

Whether hit counts at torrent sites encourage the creation of the bootlegs ... well, I don't know, I am only an economist of small philosophical brain, and I'll let the mighty moral philosophers on the site tackle that one.

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Look, here's my take on this: the only job the fans have, the ONLY one, is to support the things that they like.

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Anime companies can always do more, and they should do more, to keep themselves afloat in the murky waters of this industry.

So which one is it? Fans need to buy, or does the Companies need to cater to the fans needs and wants? Kinda see-sawing the topic at hand here.

Here's the rub: BOTH sides need to co-exist with each other in order for both to be in harmony. Fans need to buy stuff, and the companies need to cater to the customers and adapt to the changing marketplace. It's that simple. From what i'm seeing, your just saying "throw all the counterweights onto one end of the ship, let that end float the ship in it's entirety."

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And for a lot of people, that's a problem. They hide behind layers of bullcrap rationale - THE INDUSTRY DOESN'T DESERVE MY MONEY BECAUSE THEY DON'T MEET MY OWN STRATOSPHERIC NEEDS HURRDURR - but all it really comes down to is that they just don't care. They don't care enough to support it.

And here folks is a perfect example of what your not supposed to do: Piss off your consumer base by being a dickhead yourself. It hasn't worked, and will never be for the foreseeable future.

YOU DON'T ANGER THE PEOPLE WITH THE PURSESTRINGS.

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But anyway, you are absolutely right, and I don't think anyone's arguing that it's ONLY the fans that need to keep this industry afloat. As far as I've seen, nobody's ever really argued that point. The reason that fansubs and scanlations get such a bad rap and are the subject of constant discussion is because... well, nobody's figured it out yet.

Too bad ANN's search function is broken/spotty at best. I'd be throwing out tons of post links right about now to refute this.

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But how the hell do you get people who seem to have no problem at all with outright thieving the stuff that they claim to love?

For one thing, don't label them as thieves.

While Anime seems to have slightly embraced near-simultaneous broadcasting (Thank You FUNimation and Crunhcyroll), Manga seems to be stuck in this perpetual hellhole of delayed releases in other countries. Which is actually the biggest weakness facing manga.

Manga can benefit from the scanlation model in a certain sense: Beat the Translators to the punch with OFFICIAL simultaneous translations, combined with legal enforcement in stamping out fanscans. You can't eliminate them all, but when you offer a legal alternative, you can sway people to your cause.

That, or we just completely ignore what Napster and iTunes did to the music industry.

Well Zin5ki probably would know my answer to the questions but to explain to agila61 that the philosophy I normally argue from is one that looks at actions themselves and not intent so much.

So the action of bootlegging itself is wrong, regardless of the reasoning behind it, because it harms the original rights holder and because it lacks universality. What I mean is when they get defensive about their works being taken by others (like aggregate sites for example) means that they are in a contradiction, in that they have no problem distributing the work of others without the creators/rights holders permission, but when it comes to their own work they get defensive. My philosophy views that as an irrational position, one that can't be held, either it's okay to respect authors and their works or it isn't. I personally chose respect, so if the rights holders, the authors, don't want their works released digitally, or for free digitally, that is their choice to make, and that choice should be respected (even if one does not like it) so that others will respect your work when the time comes to it.

So those who go the IRC route and take things down when series are licensed are still doing wrong and still are not giving back what they have taken, which is the right for the artist to distribute their works as they see fit to. Even the "ethical" among that group still claim that right, which is not theirs to claim. I'd say misguided in the duties of the fan that Zin5ki has extrapolated.

Sunday Silence wrote:

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And for a lot of people, that's a problem. They hide behind layers of bullcrap rationale - THE INDUSTRY DOESN'T DESERVE MY MONEY BECAUSE THEY DON'T MEET MY OWN STRATOSPHERIC NEEDS HURRDURR - but all it really comes down to is that they just don't care. They don't care enough to support it.

And here folks is a perfect example of what your not supposed to do: Piss off your consumer base by being a dickhead yourself. It hasn't worked, and will never be for the foreseeable future.

YOU DON'T ANGER THE PEOPLE WITH THE PURSESTRINGS.

Quote:

But anyway, you are absolutely right, and I don't think anyone's arguing that it's ONLY the fans that need to keep this industry afloat. As far as I've seen, nobody's ever really argued that point. The reason that fansubs and scanlations get such a bad rap and are the subject of constant discussion is because... well, nobody's figured it out yet.

Too bad ANN's search function is broken/spotty at best. I'd be throwing out tons of post links right about now to refute this.

"Bullcrap rationale" Don't they just? Wink

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But how the hell do you get people who seem to have no problem at all with outright thieving the stuff that they claim to love?

For one thing, don't label them as thieves.

They take something that doesn't belong to them with no fair exchange. what else can you call them? Wink

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While Anime seems to have slightly embraced near-simultaneous broadcasting (Thank You FUNimation and Crunhcyroll), Manga seems to be stuck in this perpetual hellhole of delayed releases in other countries. Which is actually the biggest weakness facing manga.

Manga can benefit from the scanlation model in a certain sense: Beat the Translators to the punch with OFFICIAL simultaneous translations, combined with legal enforcement in stamping out fanscans. You can't eliminate them all, but when you offer a legal alternative, you can sway people to your cause.

That, or we just completely ignore what Napster and iTunes did to the music industry.

You mean reduce bands to only doing live gigs to make an honest buck? Hard to do when your talking about drawings, and the only way to do it is polluted with entitlement junkies who wouldn't pay to see Christ walk upon the water when some f***tard has uploaded his videocam raw copy to the world wide web for free. Yeah didn't they do well? Rolling Eyes

Sunday Silence wrote:

That, or we just completely ignore what Napster and iTunes did to the music industry.

Am I missing something here? I don't recall Apple ever pirating anything through iTunes.

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