Forum - View topicINTEREST: Black Lagoon, Hellsing Creators Discuss Illegal Uploads
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chefneer
 Aria Company Posts: 1686 Location: Fort Worth, Texas |
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Sorry it's taken me awhile to reply to my critics - I do have a life outside of this forum.
To those who have complained that my previous post did not provide rationale for calling a thief a thief; that wasn't my intent. Other posters, in this thread and others, have attempted to rebut the leeches justifications for their actions in great detail, in sometimes long point-by-point dissertations. They have done this repeatedly with little discernable effect. Apparently leeches are impervious to reason, so I see no point in joining that particular parade. So I made seven statements of fact, nothing more. I did this on the, admittedly shakey, theory that by keeping it simple it might make some positive impact on the leeches intellects, if only in a rudimentary way. The leeches don't like it? Tough, I don't expect them to like it. Truth isn't always pleasant. And the plain truth is that a thief is a thief, and if you're taking a book in a manner that does not provide compensation to the creator, you're a thief. Who knows? Maybe I hit a soft spot. Or is that just wishful dreaming? Just to be clear, as has been previously stated, borrowing legitimate copies from friends and libraries is not really the issue here. Those books are properly paid for so everyone up the chain, including the creator, gets paid. That is how it should be. |
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bayoab
Posts: 831 |
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The correct statement would be that it depends on the series/publisher/contract. That said, I don't think I've sat through a publisher's panel without hearing "We're currently trying to acquire more of that" with the exception of Viz. It is definitely not false and many licenses are actually not for the entire series because of sales and time reasons.
Edit: Realized what was meant. The original "what does it matter" really wasn't meant to cover FUD or anything like that. Last edited by bayoab on Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Your statement is based on what evidence? I can tell you that this isn't true at all for me personally, so there is at least one anecdote that what you say isn't true. I've also ran some polls on pirate forums in the past, and it wasn't true for many of those who responded there either.
I didn't say the majority, but since I did say "commonly" I understand why you would think I meant it that way. I certainly do not believe that everyone who pirates buys everything that he previously pirated. I do believe that most who pirate buy what they like most when they have the money to do so. The root cause of piracy, then, is that people want to watch more things and want to spend more of their free time watching things than they have the money to afford spending on it. It is not that they don't care at all, it's not that they don't like and purchase many shows, and it's not that they hate the shows that they didn't purchase, but that they prefer those shows that they buy over those which they do not. All economic problems are essentially scarcity problems, but with media there is no scarcity except that which is forced. So provided someone has significant additional time to watch, he will likely download much in order to fulfill that desire. You will never see people buy as much as they download because they can't afford to buy as much as they download. (Some of us can do this, I buy everything I download when it's available, but this doesn't apply to all pirates and I would never deny that). One also has to consider the demographics of anime viewership. Many of the individuals downloading aren't adults and don't make money. Generally, if they can get something without asking their parents for money they are going to do that. I imagine in some economic cases piracy definitely does result in less purchasing. I think when times are better this is probably not true, because more disposable income relates to more purchases in this realm. That said, ultimately my point was that authors who say this kind of thing aren't helping themselves like they imagine. If people were going to be convinced to buy the last way to convince them is guilt trips and vitriol. That's going to poison the well and encourage more people to try to find something else to do that has nothing at all to do with you. This is a very bad idea. Last edited by Xanas on Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sykoeent
 Posts: 160 |
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So, you're saying you're one of these "pirateers"? How convenient. Also, polls on a pirate forum? lol Is this some joke? Arr! |
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RestLessone
 Posts: 1426 Location: New York |
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Thanks. It does depend on the publisher and other aspects, but I rarely see a company that doesn't deal with individual licensing. And, yeah, VIZ is the only one who doesn't seem to encounter these sorts of problems, at least a lot. It might have to do with their sales or relationship with Shueisha and/or Shogakukan, but I don't know. Though it's also noteworthy that they're the ones with the "big" titles and the only company I can think of that has done the quick-fire releases to play catch-up. Also, Japanese publishers don't have to even let an English publisher release a volume. Ichijinsha has halted English publisher's, particularly Tokyopop's, ability to license/release the newer volumes of Saiyuki, Loveless, (I believe) Dazzle, and some others for awhile now. They're still waiting on them for that (it must hurt, too, because Saiyuki and Loveless seemed to do really well for them).
Most companies haven't been doing that, and if so, rather infrequently. Yen Press hasn't dropped a title, (in fact, they picked up all the ICEk manhwa!) and Tokyopop mentioned via Twitter (http://twitter.com/TOKYOPOP/status/21503640600) that they are searching for alternative ways to distribute The Embalmer, a series I love but suffered from weak sales. It's probable that they'll attempt to do the same with other series licensed during the manga glut period.
First of all, I said simultaneous releases. Others actually wait a few months to release chapters and they aren't as bad. Simultaneous releases can be downright terrible. However, even in instances where people wait months, their quality (editing, translating, adapting, layering, etc.) rarely rivals an official publisher. They really don't adapt that much, either, so phrases can sound clunky. They don't have the same refined precision companies might put into their work, nor do they always have official names. The YP release of Black Butler amazed me in that it used British English spellings and found a great alternative for a Japanese phrase that only worked in, well, Japanese. It didn't make sense in the scans--if they are in Britain, having random Japanese elements in the language is absurd. Adaptation is extremely important in the transition to English, and is often under-appreciated.
There's a thing called patience. I'm waiting for the latest volumes of Eyeshield 21. Dunno when volume 37 will roll out, though 35 is scheduled for April. The problem isn't people reading and buying, it's people reading it for free and not buying anything. I'm faced with the prospect of series I follow being canned. But I support it and I'm happy to be able to buy what I can. If enough people follow the logic that sales = continuation, it stays (unless the company refuses to drop a series anyway). I rather have that one volumes than absolutely nothing, in any case; I even bought the out-of-print volumes of Ginga Legend Weed, with the knowledge there was a snowball's chance in Hell of a company ever picking it up again. |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I suppose to you it is, though I can't tell why. I suppose you think everyone who pirates is a horrible liar. If so you'll never be convinced of anything outside your own little box. Have fun there btw. You can hate on us all you want but that doesn't change anything. |
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Yes, because going bankrupt publishing titles that do not earn their costs back is far better than dropping a series that doesn't earn back its cost of production? How exactly is the publisher going bankrupt better? Its not a notion, its simple fact of life that if the title does not earn back its cost, there is no big "pile of money" lying around to pay for it to be published anyway. Its not as if publishers want to drop a title: they are forced to by circumstance. Hopefully electronic editions will make it possible to keep releasing series in some form even if they drop below the level of sales that will support a print run. But blaming publishers for dropping a title is juvenile: obviously they would rather that it sold enough to return its cost of production. The actual cause of a title being dropped is lack of sales.
The thing is, your description of how fansubbers behaved as a whole is quite clearly a lie. If you meant, "when a series I fansub are licensed, I ...", well, maybe its true. But its a lie about how fansubbers as a whole act. As long as there is one group fansubbing the series, then that is what will show up on the leech streaming sites. Unless all fansubbers drop a show, its not dropped as far as the piracy is concerned. And all popular shows are continued. Only unpopular shows struggle getting covered by another fansub group if they are dropped by a group for real, rather than the fake drop as when the people doing Marimite for Lililiscious continued under the name of Gokigenyou. And of course, damage is done by both the pirates that undermine the market before its licensed, if it is, and the pirates that undermine the market after its licensed. You may imagine that this is like the 90's or early turn of the century when fansubbing did little noticeable harm and may even have done some good, but what you are doing now is providing content for leech streaming sites, competing head to head against legit streaming sites. Last edited by agila61 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sykoeent
Posts: 160 |
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Nay, I just be finding tickling me funny bone is all! Aye didn't know there be a Pirate forum! And Aye not be calling ye a liar, just calling ye a pirate is all! Arr! lol No, I'm sure you guys don't "lie" or whatever (lol). Plus I like turning you guys into a joke. You know? I mean, so how much do you get for your advertising on your pirate site? Obviously you do this out of "love" right? Or is it fame your after? INTERWEB FAME! lol Funny funny. And, unfortunately for you, my box is quite big, you know, since I contribute to the anime arts here on the West Side of the States as well as do a 4-Panel comic for a podcast site on the East Side of the States. Oh, and far as regular jobs go, my stuff can be bought at every major retailer in America... and a few other countries... Yeah... my "little box" indeed! ARR! |
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ChocoBar
Posts: 164 |
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And the license didn't extend until it was license by crunchyroll are they still subbing Naruto and Bleach? NO. Do they rip off crunchyroll's own subs, YES.
Because it's the truth? You're the one who's deusional here buddy
Cool Story Bro, mind telling where to find Soul Eater subbed? Since the original subber dropped the series after getting C&D letters to stop once it got licensed and didn't bother to sub it |
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Soundmonkey44
 Posts: 1243 |
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Reading through this i find some posters comments rather amusing, I mean Illegal is illegal & wrong is wrong, certain users can try to justify it anyway they want, by saying, "well were helping it get popular" or "We do better subs" Does not really mean a thing Scanlations & Fansubs are ILLEGAL, always have been, always will be, unless you are using clips or images for Review or Parody, you are BREAKING THE LAW. No ifs ands or buts about it. While Fansubs & scans are not the soul reason anime & manga industry in Japan & the U.S. are declining, they are a decent chunk. Again Both Manga-ka's are completly justified in there comments. People who Distribute Copyrighted content online & then have the audascity to shove it in the creators face, truly do deserve a slow painful death.
But yea, if you want a series wait till it comes to the states, and if it doesn't come, well thems the breaks. |
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ChocoBar
Posts: 164 |
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So basically you're trying to say is that the people are wrong for liking an unpopular series? Let alone the fact that most publishers don't even announce it's cancellation and just stop publishing it, same thing happen to Zatch Bell, and yet you want to condemn people from using scanlations by fans who are just picking up the slack that the publisher failed to do? |
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sykoeent
Posts: 160 |
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Hmm... how about learning Japanese? They have all those programs and you can learn. And they even have FREE TUTORS on YouTube. No one is stopping you. You're given these choices. |
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hikaru004
 Posts: 2306 |
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I think those comments that the mangaka made were tasteless and crude. The family survivors of pancreatic cancer patients should give them a little talk about the impact of death on them and the course of the cancer on the affected relative so they should know what they are wishing on copyright infringers.
I know it's their right to speak out but sometimes counting to ten before typing is better. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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"And the license didn't extend" ... what does that mean? Are you referring to the fact that the licensed release was years behind the Japanese broadcast until the simulcast deal was worked out? Well, so what of it? Watch something else. Nothing breaks watching a show a couple years after if was broadcast. DB dropped it, but the reason nobody else picked it up was they can't speedsub faster than a rip from a simulcast. For the leech streaming sites that you provide content for, its all good. They don't really care whether its a fansub, a simulcast rip or a DVD rip, it all attracts viewers.
Because its bullshit. A decade back, fansubbers used to restrict themselves to titles that they did not expect to be licensed, and dropped titles when they were licensed. Nowadays there's always some group to fansub a popular series. Of course, from Summer, the large majority of series are on legit simulcast, so it looks like it'll mostly be rips from here on out. The leech streaming sites that you are providing the content for don't care.
Mate, it took me less than five minutes googling to find a fansub of the last episode (51). Skynight did the K-fx styling and Alma did the translation. So as far as your assumption that when one group drops a popular series, nobody ever picks it up ... you didn't even do five minutes searching to find out that Soul Eater was a bullshit example. |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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Liking has nothing to do with anything. The people who bought the series did what they could do to keep it running, and the people who didn't buy and read a bootleg instead on the excuse that series sometimes get dropped, they helped make sure that the series was dropped. |
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