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sykoeent wrote:

mglittlerobin wrote:

I feel insulted by this statement, I borrow Bleach manga from the library all the time, does that make me a moocher? No, because someone still paid for that copy, so the author still received money from a sale of his book. If this statement were true, there would be a lot of anime and manga moochers who borrow from their friends, the library Nettflix, etc. I also review Bleach and earn money from reviews, which I use to buy Bleach anime, am I a moocher fan of Bleach or any other manga I borrow from the library, NO.

Ugh... it actually sort of does...
"I feel insulted by this statement, I borrow Bleach manga from the library all the time, does that make me a moocher? No, because someone still paid for that copy, so the author still received money from a sale of his book."
and yes
"there would be a lot of anime and manga moochers who borrow from their friends"

I've agreed with most of your posts, sykoeent and I'm entirely on your side in the great, never-ending piracy debate but the above is just silly.

Putting aside the fact that manga publishers are highly supportive of libraries and that they (and most other publishers for that matter) would be hurting a lot worse without library purchases (see my posts, among others, in this thread for elaboration on that point) it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that somebody borrowing from a library is "mooching" given that the patrons of the library are the very people who purchased, via their taxes, the books they're borrowing.

In any case, turning your guns on library patrons (and, by extension, libraries themselves) seems like a pretty odd tactical choice in the context of this particular debate.

Moomintroll wrote:

In any case, turning your guns on library patrons (and, by extension, libraries themselves) seems like a pretty odd tactical choice in the context of this particular debate.

I think that's why I had trouble calling it "mooching" in that situation... I think there should be another term for it... I just feel that, in a way it sort of is like "mooching"... but with a penalty...

And I thought this thread was closed?

sykoeent wrote:

Moomintroll wrote:

In any case, turning your guns on library patrons (and, by extension, libraries themselves) seems like a pretty odd tactical choice in the context of this particular debate.

I think that's why I had trouble calling it "mooching" in that situation... I think there should be another term for it... I just feel that, in a way it sort of is like "mooching"... but with a penalty...

And I thought this thread was closed?

Actually, if the moocher is skilled enough to get their friend to buy more manga than they would otherwise buy, they're a benefit to the market. A fine supporting fan that, if they are getting manga bought beyond their purchasing power.

Library patrons are indirectly benefiting the market in exactly the same way ~ titles that circulate heavily persuade the library to buy more stuff like that, titles that circulate very heavily persuade the library to buy additional copies of that same title. Fine supporting fans, those library patrons.

Five people forming a manga club and pooling their money to get a wider variety of manga than they could otherwise get is also a benefit to the market. Most excellent supporting fans.

Hell, if the only way you can support the market is to watch ad-streams on Hulu and on a week delay at Crunchy, and read (the trickle of) legit online market on ad-supported sites ... then got on social networks and spread the world about the availability of legit material available online. You'll be a wonderful supporting fan. Two Thumbs Up.

So all of these are "supporting fans". Those people that spend $400 or $1,000 on manga or anime in a year, we'll all agree to call them "Super Duper Prime Top Shelf Boss Gold Star Supporting Fans". And bow if meeting them in person. I'd say "God bless them", but if God is an anime and manga fan, she already does.

Hey, I bet Zac is a Super Duper Prime Top Shelf Boss Gold Star Supporting Fan, I wonder if he'll close the thread on that note.

agila61 wrote:

OK, sorry, you said something false and, as you later revealed, you knew perfectly well that you only knew for sure it was true for you, and had no idea whether or not it was true in general.

Course, that's a mouthful. Bluffing about something being true when you have no basis for knowing is something I'll normally call a "lie" for short.

I didn't bluff about anything. I clarified prior statements that you misrepresented. I thought you merely misunderstood those statements to mean what I didn't intend, but it appears that you may be doing this on purpose. That obviously undermines any discussion we could have.

To go back to my original statement once again:
"Pirates are commonly also purchasers. "
This says commonly, not most. I never intended to imply most, and yet you insist that this is what I meant in saying that I bluffed by using myself as example of what is done by most who download.

Now, if you are challenging my assertion that it's common, then maybe you have a point if we agree on what the term means. By common I meant that it's "not unusual." I meant that "many who pirate do buy."

I knew people who did it and I continue to use forums for the purpose of downloading and have asked and read what they do so I have some idea that they did buy, not merely knowing that it's me that acts that way.

I'd point you to something like this though, which is a bit more generic and not at some pirate website: http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/03/6418.ars

Quote:

... millions of people rarely fall into two nice neat extreme groups. There's also (3) Don't Know (4) Don't Care as long as they get their entertainment (5) Conned by the BS peddled by piracy defenders ...

My statement was a simplification because it was entirely unnecessary to establish more groups for my argument. I'd also admit that "callous haters" follows the general tone of these types of conversations. Given the ill wishes I don't think that's unwarranted.

Xanas wrote:

To go back to my original statement once again:
"Pirates are commonly also purchasers. "

I have no evidence that fansubbers and scanlators buy any less product than they have ever done. Of course, while buying the stuff does good, it is massively outweighed by the piracy itself.

And I have yet to see any evidence that the illegal uploaders and other volunteers at leech streaming and manga viewing sites, DVD rippers, and all the other actual pirates buy any more or less stuff than their peers viewing the sites. Simple comparison of the growth of viewership to the changes in the actual market proves that the its uncommon for viewers of these sites to buy much stuff.

But over and above that, if Pirates were similar in number to those consuming their bootlegs, this issue would matter. Since hundreds of pirates mean thousands or millions of bootleg copies consumed, the consumption habits of the pirates themselves is basically rounding error on the scales, far, far less on average than the penny per view that legit ad streams generate.

So I apologize for thoughtlessly wandering into that line of argument, which is ultimately irrelevant to the damage done by pirates.

As a new manga consumer, I prefer not to buy series that are extremely long, as in over thirty volumes long, so that's why I do not buy Bleach or Naruto, and because it's available at my local library and I can get it whenever I want for free legally, I don't feel obligated to buy it, I like the anime better, because I like watching it on TV more. But I will buy manga if I know I like it and I will collect the volumes for the series I like. I might even buy a Death Note volume to help my library replace the one in the system that went missing, they never got it back and can't finish borrowing Death Note because volume four is missing. I would buy it and donate it because that manga is something I wouldn't want to keep, but wouldn't mind reading once through.

agila61 wrote:

hikaru004 wrote:

I think those comments that the mangaka made were tasteless and crude.

... and quite expressive. Don't forget the clarity with which they made their feelings known.

Again, its the creators of Black Lagoon and Hellsing we are talking about here. If they were afraid of putting anything in front of the public that was anything but elegant and refined ... uh, that would lead readers of Black Lagoon and Hellsing up a creek without a manga.

The author of Black Butler phrased it much more prettily, and people still abused her for it in these forums.

It really doesn't matter how expressive their words were. Tasteless and crude is still tasteless and crude. They are professionals and should act accordingly. Not descend to the level of the posters taunting them with the fact that their works are being posted online.

hikaru004 wrote:

It really doesn't matter how expressive their words were. Tasteless and crude is still tasteless and crude. They are professionals and should act accordingly. Not descend to the level of the posters taunting them with the fact that their works are being posted online.

Yep. And if it was a "trendy" disease like AIDS or breast cancer, people would be calling for their heads.

But I wonder what kind of idiot downloads manga/anime and then goes and tells the creator about it?

Is it OK if I'm against all parties involved? They all seem a insensitive.

hikaru004 wrote:

Tasteless and crude is still tasteless and crude. They are professionals and should act accordingly. ...

Quoting a review of Hellsing on this very site:

Quote:

Anyone who saw Seras Victoria rub Zorin Blitz's head off on a wall—for eight pages no less, or who felt their breath leave as Alucard revealed the mind-boggling monster beneath his nominally human facade, or who thrilled and mourned as Anderson met his thorny end, would be excused for expecting this, the final volume of Hellsing, to fry their brains to a crisp.

Incredibly violent and over the top hyperbole is his profession. Not tasteful and elegant.

hikaru004 wrote:

It really doesn't matter how expressive their words were. Tasteless and crude is still tasteless and crude. They are professionals and should act accordingly. Not descend to the level of the posters taunting them with the fact that their works are being posted online.

You do know that Hirano has done nazi hentai right? Nearly every major character was based off of hentai Hirano did. In fact the pilot for Hellsing is hentai, he just removed the part where the police officer is raped.

and their fictional works are fictional works.
No matter what kind of notoriety they have as fiction writers it does not give them a free pass to insult a real person, thief or not.

ArsenicSteel wrote:

and their fictional works are fictional works.
No matter what kind of notoriety they have as fiction writers it does not give them a free pass to insult a real person, thief or not.

They insulted them? I was under the impression that what they had done was wish painful deaths on them.

There was no indication in the article that they insulted the useless freeloading parasite.

Your pedantic bullshit. Quote someone else.

mrsatan wrote:

Is it OK if I'm against all parties involved? They all seem a insensitive.

Join the club, I think both sides are acting like freakin' children.

ArsenicSteel wrote:

and their fictional works are fictional works.
No matter what kind of notoriety they have as fiction writers it does not give them a free pass to insult a real person, thief or not.

So your saying that you have never insulted a person before? People are stealing their work, I think they have ever right to insult theives.

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