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Zin5ki
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:20 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh, could you please address the question I have been recently asking to you? Each response you provide to ikillchicken renders it ever more important for you to state whether you argue against the activities in question on moral or economical grounds, for it seems that your arguments rest upon something other than mere legal facts.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8180
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:28 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
CCSYueh, could you please address the question I have been recently asking to you? Each response you provide to ikillchicken renders it ever more important for you to state whether you argue against the activities in question on moral or economical grounds, for it seems that your arguments rest upon something other than mere legal facts.
Why is it so important to you? Why do you need her to clairify what is already very clear to those who are not lost in a fog of selfishness? The law is clear and no amount of word play is going to change that. There is only two schools of ethical thought with this, and both will affect the economical issues related. One is "all things are legal until I get caught." and the other is "respect the law and I respect the people the law protects because I could be one of them. " One is either a part of the solution, or one is a part of the problem, no excuses in the eyes of justice.
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14082
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:42 pm Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
Zin5ki wrote:
CCSYueh, could you please address the question I have been recently asking to you? Each response you provide to ikillchicken renders it ever more important for you to state whether you argue against the activities in question on moral or economical grounds, for it seems that your arguments rest upon something other than mere legal facts.
Why is it so important to you? Why do you need her to clairify what is already very clear to those who are not lost in a fog of selfishness? The law is clear and no amount of word play is going to change that. There is only two schools of ethical thought with this, and both will affect the economical issues related. One is "all things are legal until I get caught." and the other is "respect the law and I respect the people the law protects because I could be one of them. " One is either a part of the solution, or one is a part of the problem, no excuses in the eyes of justice.


Protip #1: the law is rarely right and rarely just.

Protip #2: Not all laws are equal. Some should be followed more strictly than others. Case in point; the law in New Zealand that has banned any use of measurements that are not SI. Therefore, Subway technically cannot sell you a foot-long, McDonalds technically cannot offer quarter-pounders, and you are technically unable to buy a pint of beer from a pub. Does anyone care about obeying this daft law? No. No-one cares.

Protip #3: There are exceptions to every law. Even murder is justifiable in some cases.

Now sure, Anime isn't a life-or-death situation, and using fansubs does in some cases take money away from licensors and creators. But what I'm trying to say here is that just because something is "the law" does not mean that anything but a blind adherence to it is legally and morally acceptable. Simply stating that it is illegal is not an argument that those who see the world in varying shades of grey will accept.
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gingi789



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:22 pm Reply with quote
reanimator wrote:
CCYueh, you're doing one heck of job to reply back to all those spoiled "brats". You're just stating obvious abuses and I guess some people are refusing to hear it. Keep it up. You're not alone.

Answerman wrote:
They are still fans, though, and I can't begrudge the subbers and translators themselves their right to exercise their right to be fans. If only there were a way to scourge away all the leechers and leave the subbers and translators intact... Hm.


Leechers are not likely shrink as long as there are so many loopholes. I'm not saying that leechers will completely disappear, but closing the loopholes as much as possible helps the industry.

Answerman wrote:
They're (fansubbers) doing something on their own time that is difficult and time-consuming, and they're doing it all because they love this stuff. That's evident, and I don't think myself or anyone else would ever challenge that.


Even though fansubbing process sounds pretty difficult, there is no comparison in creating something out of blank sheet of paper. trust me, I tried fansubbing in back in late 90's. Fansubbing is a short voluntary project that doesn't affect one's livelihood. Plus, it's not manual labor intensive nor requires years of training. Everything is provided. Pictures and sounds are already there for interpretation. It doesn't require professionalism. Only critical skill it needs most is decent knowledge of Japanese language. Putting a special font for subtitle is optional. Putting a special style of translation is also optional. You never hear a fansubber going broke doing fansubbing.

On the other hand, making anime and manga is lengthy project where professionals' livelihoods are depending on it. They constantly train and practice their visual art skills and narrative skills to make their end products attractive. They have to start from the blank even with comic books. Matters of putting designs and visual direction have to be reviewed and consulted. You cannot just download drawing and design skill into one's head like the Matrix and able to draw pretty pictures in a flash. We know that there are several reports that lives of Japanese animation and comic professionals' lives are bleak. Also there is also recent report of an anime studio going bankrupt.

Answerman wrote:
I just wish there was a better way, I guess, to channel that sort of devotion. Because it all just seems like wasted effort to me. Maybe not to you, since you enjoy the fansubs more, and that's certainly your prerogative. But to me, I'd like to see these guys and girls forgo the titles that are obvious no-brainers to either be licensed or simulcast, and stick to the stuff that sits on the fringes of the fandom. The titles that still truly need that extra bit of promotional push.


I've been venting frustrations at fansubbers for their misguided love and lack of self-policing. At their initial inception, they seem pure and selfless. Once it evolved into a monster that we see today, I am not happy about how they govern themselves.
If they love translating anime and manga for its exposure to unknowing public, then they should be accountable for some negative outcomes. Fansubbers themselves have plenty of choices for controlling how their labor of love should be exposed, yet they only did half-baked attempts so far. Does it mean that fansubbers are totally at fault? It's both yes and no. Yes, they're responsible for the mess they made. No, their love for subtitling to expose their favorite medium could be used for better use.

I downloaded couple of fansubs of obscure anime films for myself. So I'm not perfect either. I hope that fansub community in general should exercise right discretion on titles they subtitle. They cannot just go on with pure ignorance and entitlement attitude.

I'm sure that there are some fansub groups and supporters will try to counter some of my statements. Still, I don't think those claims aren't enough to represent the whole loose knit community which is not known for good record of discretion.

Since anime industry here and abroad cannot clean up every single mess that fansubs make, it's up to fansubbers to be responsible if they really care about their favorite media.





So...........even if we own thousands of dollars worth of anime + manga, buy figures, support the industry, but download fansubs, we're "brats"?

Wait....now i've seen the light. I realize that the way i've been living my life is terribly wrong. Buying the manga and anime i like and can get....buying the figureines....supporting the industry.....if i'm still considered a "brat" by you, then why bother? Why not download all the anime I can and only read scanlations? I mean, that way i'd still get the anime and manga i love, only i'd actually EARN the title of "brat" and "leech" that you guys seem to love to throw around so much.

In all seriousness.....whose opinion do you think you're changing? The leechers? They never cared one way or another; to them, it's just about getting anime and manga for free. (in fact, a lot of them probably consider it an achievement that they don't pay) Ours? The people who watch fansubs occasionally, when they can't get it legally (streaming, DVD or otherwise), and then saying "you're still leechers?"

We are not the people who download Naruto every week rather than either wait a week or watch it streaming. We're not people who feel no desire to support anime and manga. We do support it. But if you want to try to change our minds, to make us see your side of the argument, telling us that we're all "brats" or "leechers" is really not the way to go.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:07 pm Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
CCSYueh wrote:
My stance has been all along breaking the law in pursuit of a HOBBY doesn't make breaking the law ok.

I would ask a variation of the same question ikillchicken poses. Under the context of this discussion, should I interpret this sentence of yours as an exclamation of ethical conviction, or as an expression of your views on the economic ill-effect of certain actions? If the former, little more needs to be said of this without changing the subject. If the latter, further challenges can be made against it.


To me that is plain as day.
It is not ok to break the law to pursue a hobby.
How else can I say it?
Yes, it's ethical & it is economic because there is NO way on earth to evaluate the underground economy. For every person who brags they spent thousands on some anime stuff, you have the uncounted masses who may or may not buy anime or manga were it not on the net for free.
It's like "what if" scenarios-all speculation. What if Hitler had died early in WWII? What if Gore had won the recount? What if 9/11 hadn't happened?
SPECULATION.
And cherry-picking select fans while ignoring the leeches is not a game I'm playing. I've had too many religious freaks on my doorstep trying to twist Bible passages to make it seem generally accepted biblical translations sound as though they are suggesting illegal behavior. I've seen radio preachers mis-quote metal lyrics to make it sound as though Ozzy, Priest & Maiden are saying things they aren't.
Hell, I've called in & argued with them back in the 80's & they quicky suggest "You're confused" or they have to cut to a commercial & "lose" the call.
I'm not playing your game.

So they put a lot of time into translating this stuff for no pay. Pot growers put a lot of effort into growing pot & Meth cookers put a certain amount of effort into making meth.
Gee, shall we be impressed with their effort? Maybe we should not think so harshly of drug dealers.
I can't even count the amount of hours I've spent copying cast lists off the anime I watch so I can ref casts which is why it pisses me off when Funi doesn't include the Japanese cast in the credits & I also have (not in the last year, though) taken the time to post cast members on this website's encyclopedia so others might be able to use the info for whatever they want-deciding if they want to buy the title, figuring out if that's a particular VA, etc.

gingi789 wrote:
So...........even if we own thousands of dollars worth of anime + manga, buy figures, support the industry, but download fansubs, we're "brats"?


You're downloading. Why do you care about the opinions of those of us who don't download, yet still manage to spend more money that I want to think about on manga & anime. I spent a large hunk of Saturday pulling finished titles off my manga shelves & boxing them up to make room for on-going titles because I don't want to think how many bookcases I'd need to hold all the manga I have. Someday, I might actually get it all organized & anime photographed so I can send it in to this site, but I really don't see it happening any time soon. (6 bookcases with double rows in a constant state of flux). Artbooks. Figures, including 2 dozen Saint Seiya dolls which run $50-$100 each.
Oh yeah, I have 2 of those 6 ft cd racks from Ikea mostly full of Japanese cds while my daughter has one full of largely Japanese game music.
It's like you seem to believe because you download, you can spend more on stuff, but surprise surprise-people who buy their anime & manga ALSO buy figures, clothes, cds, & the like. I just dropped $60 friday night on a Bleach character song collection, 2 packages of comic bags so I could pack those manga up so they won't yellow, a Wow calendar for my daughter, a couple Bleach patches (Ulquiorra I plan on sewing on my jeans next to Gin & the other onto my Hellsing bag) & 2 cute Nightmare Before Christmas cell phone straps from Japan.
gingi789 wrote:

if i'm still considered a "brat" by you, then why bother?

Why do you care?
If you honestly see no harm, then just do it as you have been.
Most of us here don't know you from Adam.
It's like the argument if this or that motorcycle gear makes one look gay-most of the biker types wear what they want & do not care.

gingi789 wrote:
We are not the people who download Naruto every week rather than either wait a week or watch it streaming. We're not people who feel no desire to support anime and manga. We do support it. But if you want to try to change our minds, to make us see your side of the argument, telling us that we're all "brats" or "leechers" is really not the way to go.

So why are you defending yourself?
Some of us choose to respect the creators & wait-self denial if you would. You have apparently decided your selfish desire to see anime now rather than wait outweighs the creator's rights. You've made your decision. Just stop trying to excuse it & accept what you are doing.
In some ways the era we've gotten ourselves into sucks so bad. No one's a "bad guy". Everyone freaks out at the idea of being labeled a criminal or jerk.
I used to get so many calls in the past when I answered phones for the courts-people who wanted the number, so when I'd ask "Criminal, civil, traffic, or small claims" some of the time the response was "Civil, I got a ticket." Tickets are criminal or traffic "I'M A CRIMINAL?!!!!" God, most of them were not happy because they saw themselves as upright citizens, not lawbreakers. No, getting a ticket didn't make them horrible criminals, but the did violate a law which put them into criminal or traffic court.
Piracy is a violation. There's no nice way around it. Fansubbing & downloading is an act of piracy. you cannot get around that
However, because the means to properly police it don't exist, we're stuck with the honor system. We see how that works.
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hissatsu01



Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 960
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:57 pm Reply with quote
So, anyone want to stick a fork in this thread already? I think it's done.
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gingi789



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:31 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
Zin5ki wrote:
CCSYueh wrote:
My stance has been all along breaking the law in pursuit of a HOBBY doesn't make breaking the law ok.

I would ask a variation of the same question ikillchicken poses. Under the context of this discussion, should I interpret this sentence of yours as an exclamation of ethical conviction, or as an expression of your views on the economic ill-effect of certain actions? If the former, little more needs to be said of this without changing the subject. If the latter, further challenges can be made against it.


To me that is plain as day.
It is not ok to break the law to pursue a hobby.
How else can I say it?
Yes, it's ethical & it is economic because there is NO way on earth to evaluate the underground economy. For every person who brags they spent thousands on some anime stuff, you have the uncounted masses who may or may not buy anime or manga were it not on the net for free.
It's like "what if" scenarios-all speculation. What if Hitler had died early in WWII? What if Gore had won the recount? What if 9/11 hadn't happened?
SPECULATION.
And cherry-picking select fans while ignoring the leeches is not a game I'm playing. I've had too many religious freaks on my doorstep trying to twist Bible passages to make it seem generally accepted biblical translations sound as though they are suggesting illegal behavior. I've seen radio preachers mis-quote metal lyrics to make it sound as though Ozzy, Priest & Maiden are saying things they aren't.
Hell, I've called in & argued with them back in the 80's & they quicky suggest "You're confused" or they have to cut to a commercial & "lose" the call.
I'm not playing your game.

So they put a lot of time into translating this stuff for no pay. Pot growers put a lot of effort into growing pot & Meth cookers put a certain amount of effort into making meth.
Gee, shall we be impressed with their effort? Maybe we should not think so harshly of drug dealers.
I can't even count the amount of hours I've spent copying cast lists off the anime I watch so I can ref casts which is why it pisses me off when Funi doesn't include the Japanese cast in the credits & I also have (not in the last year, though) taken the time to post cast members on this website's encyclopedia so others might be able to use the info for whatever they want-deciding if they want to buy the title, figuring out if that's a particular VA, etc.

gingi789 wrote:
So...........even if we own thousands of dollars worth of anime + manga, buy figures, support the industry, but download fansubs, we're "brats"?


You're downloading. Why do you care about the opinions of those of us who don't download, yet still manage to spend more money that I want to think about on manga & anime. I spent a large hunk of Saturday pulling finished titles off my manga shelves & boxing them up to make room for on-going titles because I don't want to think how many bookcases I'd need to hold all the manga I have. Someday, I might actually get it all organized & anime photographed so I can send it in to this site, but I really don't see it happening any time soon. (6 bookcases with double rows in a constant state of flux). Artbooks. Figures, including 2 dozen Saint Seiya dolls which run $50-$100 each.
Oh yeah, I have 2 of those 6 ft cd racks from Ikea mostly full of Japanese cds while my daughter has one full of largely Japanese game music.
It's like you seem to believe because you download, you can spend more on stuff, but surprise surprise-people who buy their anime & manga ALSO buy figures, clothes, cds, & the like. I just dropped $60 friday night on a Bleach character song collection, 2 packages of comic bags so I could pack those manga up so they won't yellow, a Wow calendar for my daughter, a couple Bleach patches (Ulquiorra I plan on sewing on my jeans next to Gin & the other onto my Hellsing bag) & 2 cute Nightmare Before Christmas cell phone straps from Japan.
gingi789 wrote:

if i'm still considered a "brat" by you, then why bother?

Why do you care?
If you honestly see no harm, then just do it as you have been.
Most of us here don't know you from Adam.
It's like the argument if this or that motorcycle gear makes one look gay-most of the biker types wear what they want & do not care.

gingi789 wrote:
We are not the people who download Naruto every week rather than either wait a week or watch it streaming. We're not people who feel no desire to support anime and manga. We do support it. But if you want to try to change our minds, to make us see your side of the argument, telling us that we're all "brats" or "leechers" is really not the way to go.

So why are you defending yourself?
Some of us choose to respect the creators & wait-self denial if you would. You have apparently decided your selfish desire to see anime now rather than wait outweighs the creator's rights. You've made your decision. Just stop trying to excuse it & accept what you are doing.
In some ways the era we've gotten ourselves into sucks so bad. No one's a "bad guy". Everyone freaks out at the idea of being labeled a criminal or jerk.
I used to get so many calls in the past when I answered phones for the courts-people who wanted the number, so when I'd ask "Criminal, civil, traffic, or small claims" some of the time the response was "Civil, I got a ticket." Tickets are criminal or traffic "I'M A CRIMINAL?!!!!" God, most of them were not happy because they saw themselves as upright citizens, not lawbreakers. No, getting a ticket didn't make them horrible criminals, but the did violate a law which put them into criminal or traffic court.
Piracy is a violation. There's no nice way around it. Fansubbing & downloading is an act of piracy. you cannot get around that
However, because the means to properly police it don't exist, we're stuck with the honor system. We see how that works.



Wow.....you seem to either not read my posts, or not care enough to think before you write. I have said (more than once) that i only download if it's not available in my area. If that's true, then how would i think that "downloading gives me more money to spend on anime?"

I could ask the same of you. You're not downloading, so why do you care about the opinions of us that do? And.....you do realize that, in the end, Tevyev's daughter elopes with the man she's in love with? (not to mention that most of that movie-or play-is Tevyev breaking with the traditions he knows, not being dragged across lines. He even supports the marriage to the taylor)

And that slippery slope you're talking about is generally known as a fallacy. It's what someone tries to use to rationalize an argument when they can't use another form of logic. Downloading anime does not mean that you will end up on death row (which is another poor, if outright laughable analogy). You seem to think that we're the people you see every day, only at our computers maniacally laughing as we plot the downfall of the anime industry.

(oh, and congrats on having that much anime + manga. that's not sarcasm- i think that if you arranged it and sent it in, it would look pretty damned cool Very Happy )

I've also told you before that i buy anime, manga, etc. The only reason i bring this up is:
Quote:
It's like you seem to believe because you download, you can spend more on stuff, but surprise surprise-people who buy their anime & manga ALSO buy figures, clothes, cds, & the like. I just dropped $60 friday night on a Bleach character song collection, 2 packages of comic bags so I could pack those manga up so they won't yellow, a Wow calendar for my daughter, a couple Bleach patches (Ulquiorra I plan on sewing on my jeans next to Gin & the other onto my Hellsing bag) & 2 cute Nightmare Before Christmas cell phone straps from Japan.


I buy anime, manga, figures, CD's, T-shirts, etc. It's not just you. I also said that i download if and only if it's not available in my area. I don't download things that have been liscensed in the United States. And i suppose i could get the stuff that hasn't been licensed without downloading, but the quality on most bootlegs are terrible. (you fail to realize that people can get things that have been licensed without downloading-they just buy the bootleg copies).

Oh-i should mention that if you're saying we're criminals, and then comparing us to the felons on parole (or people on death row) then you are, in fact, calling us "bad guys". Most people think the word "felon" is synonomous with "bad guy". You might want to keep that in mind.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:00 am Reply with quote
gingi789 wrote:

Oh-i should mention that if you're saying we're criminals, and then comparing us to the felons on parole (or people on death row) then you are, in fact, calling us "bad guys". Most people think the word "felon" is synonomous with "bad guy". You might want to keep that in mind.

My clients are convicted felons &-surprise-most of them are just every day sorts who made a stupid mistake. Some of them just make lots of stupid mistakes & keep getting felonies. I've had 2 guys in the last month commit new felonies after they were done with me meaning they will likely be back. Yeah!

you're engaging in pirate activity which makes you in a way a pirate.
What sort of pirate makes excuses?
They just do it like you are for whatever reason. The excuses really don't matter because you are doing it.

But the question of whether it's ok to break the law in pursuit of a hobby is no. If you do it, whatever. I don't see the likelyhood that the FBI will show up on your doorstep as very high so the other option is what you're doing may or may not be affecting anime being made. That isn't really part of this question.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. Contributing to lawlessness is wrong.

I do not look at my speedometer. I pace the cars around me which in SoCal can average 15-30 miles over the speed limit. I keep my eyes on the road for cops & when I see one is the only time I check my speed. If a cop pulls me over, keeping up with traffic isn't really an excuse, is it? So yeah, I violate the speed law & I accept that. No excuses.

If you are trying to convince me the guys in prison didn't violate lesser laws before they worked up to where they are, I have to disagree. No, not everyone who breaks a law will advance that far & suggesting that is just ridiculous. I'm a liberal, but I don't have to believe every liberal idea. PETA's insane. Tree-huggers are too far out for me. We can pick & choose our poison

You know it's not right, but you do it anyway. It doesn't make you a monster, but it doesn't make you a saint. It's that gray area most humans operate in. Some just step over into the black while others stay over on the whiter side of gray. Hell, just look at your font colors & there are 4 in front & a dozen if you click more colors which is a whole lot of grey. I just happen to believe you're allowing for anime to be impacted because those sites you're using are used by those who will never spend a dime, but also by people who maybe would, but if they can get it for free, why buy the cow?
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agila61



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 3213
Location: NE Ohio
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:22 am Reply with quote
Zin5ki wrote:
agila61 wrote:
(1) The R1 rights and R2/UK rights are both all-rights, and the R1 rights holder streams on Crunchy because they have the right to do so. In that case, so does the R2/UK right holder.

If it was within their power to stream titles without obtaining a further license, one presumes UK rights holders would already be doing so. It would be quite odd for them to withhold streaming licenses they already own, unless they deemed streaming to be detrimental to their enterprises.


There really is some unwarranted certainty in that presumption.

Crunchyroll had venture capital and took two years to break even, and from discussion by someone from Funimation, many original rights holder balk at allowing YouTube which uses http rather than rtmp streaming. Since UK rights holders do not have a Hulu to work with, there's no basis for automatically presuming that if they have the right they would be streaming the shows themselves ... especially given the weak streaming ad market in the UK, they may not want be in a position to wear the costs of starting up a low-traffic streaming site of their own.

As far as whether its detrimental to their enterprises to allow their titles to be streamed on Crunchyroll in return for some promotional considerations ... you mean that you have been advocating the undermining of the UK DVD distributors? If UK fans think its a potential win-win, then you should organize to make that case.

bob51 wrote:
Yeah that's mainly the problem, I don't. I wish to support parts of it, not the entirety of it, I don't see why I would want the survival of something that I don't appreciate.


But its an industry. In order to have the works that you enjoy, there needs to be a certain ability to produce, and that cannot be created from scratch for each individual series. Its a group activity making an anime, and draws on a lot of specialized skills.

Wanting to support "only" the specific series you like is like wanting to step off the roof without falling ... just wanting it does not mean its possible for it to happen. You only get an industry able to deliver the series that you like if enough other people support a broad enough variety of anime to keep the industry going.

dtm42 wrote:
Now sure, Anime isn't a life-or-death situation, and using fansubs does in some cases take money away from licensors and creators. But what I'm trying to say here is that just because something is "the law" does not mean that anything but a blind adherence to it is legally and morally acceptable. Simply stating that it is illegal is not an argument that those who see the world in varying shades of grey will accept.


If we can accept using bootlegs to sidestep an existing license hurts the industry and that viewing bootlegs on ad-supported sites hurts the industry, then we've agreed on the majority of bootleg access, and the argument here is focusing on a much smaller minority of bootleg access. And the status of the smaller minority of bootleg access attracts attention not because of the importance of its impact on the industry, but because of the disagreement itself.


Last edited by agila61 on Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:40 am; edited 2 times in total
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gingi789



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:29 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
gingi789 wrote:

Oh-i should mention that if you're saying we're criminals, and then comparing us to the felons on parole (or people on death row) then you are, in fact, calling us "bad guys". Most people think the word "felon" is synonomous with "bad guy". You might want to keep that in mind.

My clients are convicted felons &-surprise-most of them are just every day sorts who made a stupid mistake. Some of them just make lots of stupid mistakes & keep getting felonies. I've had 2 guys in the last month commit new felonies after they were done with me meaning they will likely be back. Yeah!

you're engaging in pirate activity which makes you in a way a pirate.
What sort of pirate makes excuses?
They just do it like you are for whatever reason. The excuses really don't matter because you are doing it.

But the question of whether it's ok to break the law in pursuit of a hobby is no. If you do it, whatever. I don't see the likelyhood that the FBI will show up on your doorstep as very high so the other option is what you're doing may or may not be affecting anime being made. That isn't really part of this question.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. Contributing to lawlessness is wrong.

I do not look at my speedometer. I pace the cars around me which in SoCal can average 15-30 miles over the speed limit. I keep my eyes on the road for cops & when I see one is the only time I check my speed. If a cop pulls me over, keeping up with traffic isn't really an excuse, is it? So yeah, I violate the speed law & I accept that. No excuses.

If you are trying to convince me the guys in prison didn't violate lesser laws before they worked up to where they are, I have to disagree. No, not everyone who breaks a law will advance that far & suggesting that is just ridiculous. I'm a liberal, but I don't have to believe every liberal idea. PETA's insane. Tree-huggers are too far out for me. We can pick & choose our poison

You know it's not right, but you do it anyway. It doesn't make you a monster, but it doesn't make you a saint. It's that gray area most humans operate in. Some just step over into the black while others stay over on the whiter side of gray. Hell, just look at your font colors & there are 4 in front & a dozen if you click more colors which is a whole lot of grey. I just happen to believe you're allowing for anime to be impacted because those sites you're using are used by those who will never spend a dime, but also by people who maybe would, but if they can get it for free, why buy the cow?


Actually, the point about the slippery slope fallacy was that it was wrong to assume that because someone commits a crime (i.e. speeding) that they're going to develop into worse crimes. If it was just staying level, i assume it would be a slippery plateau.

That's not to say that you're not right; the recitivism rate in this country is insane. Most people who have committed a felony and were sent to jail for it, statistically, will do it again. But that's also not the issue here.

You're saying that fansubs have no place or role in the anime community. And for the most part, I agree. I have a co-worker who proudly tells me that he doesn't pay for anything (anime or liveaction movie). Do i agree with what he does? No.

Fansubs role has been diminished greatly; that much i will give you. Nura, Highschool of the Dead, Asobi Ni Ikuyo-those are all titles that are legally watchable on Hulu, or Crunchyroll, or the Anime network. I'm saying that they do still have a role in helping little known titles get licensed.

I have never made excuses. I've told you why I download, and why I think it's ok. (we're not talking legality here) Keep in mind that most people break laws every day; whether it be speeding, making a rolling stop, crossing over a solid white line-i'd find it very hard to believe that you've never done any of those things.

I've also said I only use one site. It's not a lie, and they remove licensed anime.

To be honest, i think that even if all the downloading fansub sites in the world stopped right now, you'd still have the people who rented from netflix and ripped to their computer. You'd still have the people who bought the bootleg versions for $25 a pop. (And you might get your wish-if Verizon and Google team up, they probably will be able to reduce bandwith to downloading sites).
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14082
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:59 am Reply with quote
agila61 wrote:
If we can accept using bootlegs to sidestep an existing license hurts the industry and that viewing bootlegs on ad-supported sites hurts the industry, then we've agreed on the majority of bootleg access, and the argument here is focusing on a much smaller minority of bootleg access. And the status of the smaller minority of bootleg access attracts attention not because of the importance of its impact on the industry, but because of the disagreement itself.


How did bootlegs get into the conversation? I haven't bought a bootleg in my life, just so you know.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 8180
Location: England, UK
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:30 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Mohawk52 wrote:
Zin5ki wrote:
CCSYueh, could you please address the question I have been recently asking to you? Each response you provide to ikillchicken renders it ever more important for you to state whether you argue against the activities in question on moral or economical grounds, for it seems that your arguments rest upon something other than mere legal facts.
Why is it so important to you? Why do you need her to clairify what is already very clear to those who are not lost in a fog of selfishness? The law is clear and no amount of word play is going to change that. There is only two schools of ethical thought with this, and both will affect the economical issues related. One is "all things are legal until I get caught." and the other is "respect the law and I respect the people the law protects because I could be one of them. " One is either a part of the solution, or one is a part of the problem, no excuses in the eyes of justice.


Protip #1: the law is rarely right and rarely just.

Protip #2: Not all laws are equal. Some should be followed more strictly than others. Case in point; the law in New Zealand that has banned any use of measurements that are not SI. Therefore, Subway technically cannot sell you a foot-long, McDonalds technically cannot offer quarter-pounders, and you are technically unable to buy a pint of beer from a pub. Does anyone care about obeying this daft law? No. No-one cares.

Protip #3: There are exceptions to every law. Even murder is justifiable in some cases.

Now sure, Anime isn't a life-or-death situation, and using fansubs does in some cases take money away from licensors and creators. But what I'm trying to say here is that just because something is "the law" does not mean that anything but a blind adherence to it is legally and morally acceptable. Simply stating that it is illegal is not an argument that those who see the world in varying shades of grey will accept.
Protip#4 It is never for you to judge, but for the judge hearing your case. Wink
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 14082
Location: currently stalking my waifu
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:41 am Reply with quote
Mohawk52 wrote:
Protip#4 It is never for you to judge, but for the judge hearing your case. Wink


I can quite easily see him or her throwing the book at me to make "an example" out of myself. So the trick is to not get caught in the first place. Or at least, not in a jurisdiction where judges can and will sentence people to long years in prison or worse yet, a six- or seven-figure fine. Good thing I don't live in America eh?

Speaking of judges throwing books; I had a lawyer a few years back who - over coffee - regaled me with how a judge once literally threw a book at him. Well, okay, it was a folder full of court documents, but have you seen those things? They are massive. He still kept his cheeky mouth though, as guys from Philadelphia love running their mouth.
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:06 am Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Protip #3: There are exceptions to every law. Even murder is justifiable in some cases.


Like buying used/pre-owned items. I'm still technically buying the legit goods, just the money is not going into the pockets of the people that ruined my perception of them in the first place.
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:48 am Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
There's the slippery slope/gateway drug/breakdown of society argument. Like Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof ignoring one, then another of the codes of his society until he does finally find one he cannot break. Don't you feel sad when someone steals from a charity? Yeah, all theft is bad, but stealing form those trying to help others feels so much worse, yet I will gamble the thieves started wearing their morals down with much smaller rules originally.


You know, I sort of agree. Going against your morals is dangerous and possibly one of the few cases where the slippery slope argument applies. The trouble though is that you're using circular reasoning here. You're automatically equating doing something illegal with doing something immoral. You're essentially suggesting that it is wrong to pirate because it is dangerous to do something that's wrong. Do you see how that takes for granted the very idea you're seeking to prove?

Again though, were talking about instances where piracy is not harmful. So let's consider this without initially taking for granted that piracy is inherently morally wrong and try to apply your idea of degradation of morals. In doing this we immediately encounter a problem. You're not really 'wearing your morals down' initially at all because you're not doing anything immoral (aka harmful to others). You are doing something illegal so I suppose you are wearing down your tendency to follow the law which could perhaps lead you to do more things that are illegal. That would be valid. However, if you still hold to your moral standards of not doing any harm (and there's no reason to think you wouldn't as that's not what's being broken and therefore 'worn down') then you're really only risking doing more things that are technically illegal but still okay because they're not harmful. Therefore, there is no reason to think this kind of piracy will lead to something harmful. So you see, your line of reasoning doesn't work unless we also include your assumption that piracy is inherently immoral. The only reason for this you've presented is the idea that merely being illegal alone makes something morally wrong. As it stands, this is a notion you've yet to support.

Quote:
Why do you want me to make believe an illegal act is legal?


I'm not saying it's legal. I'm saying that even though it's illegal it's not necessarily wrong. Again, you seem to be equating 'illegal' with 'immoral'. Just because I'm saying it's not immoral doesn't mean I'm saying it's not illegal.

CCSYueh wrote:
And cherry-picking select fans while ignoring the leeches is not a game I'm playing.


Okay...I sort of don't know how I can respond to this. I mean, if you're just going to outright refuse to look at it like this, despite lumping everyone together being completely illogical...well then you're really just saying, in a nutshell: This is how I see it, because this is how I want to see it.

I mean, let me break it down in a bit more detail. You're saying that because the majority of pirates are acting immorally, it means every pirate is immoral. The underlying reason of that would then have to be that if an act is most frequently immoral, it is always immoral. That's a pretty dangerous line of thinking that opens the door to some awfully questionable stances on what is and isn't right.

CCSYueh wrote:
To me that is plain as day.
It is not ok to break the law to pursue a hobby.
How else can I say it?


So, would I be correct in assuming then that this is simply your gut feeling or natural inclination on the matter? I'm trying to get to the bottom of what reasoning supports this view of yours. You sort of seem to be indicating that you really don't have a reason for feeling this way. It's simply how you feel and that's all there is to it. Am I interpreting this correctly?
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