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ANNCast - Revenge of the 80s: It's All In The Reflexes


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DaveRichelieu



Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 10
Location: US
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:34 pm Reply with quote
Greatest disclaimer ever. I went straight to John Carpenter with the episode title, and then assumed Daryl Surat got to pick.

In the Aftermath was shown on TV in the UK about fifteen years ago when I had no idea what Angel's Egg was or even really who Mamoru Oshii was. I have often regretted not taping it, it's kind of weird, silly and beautiful (mostly the Angel's Egg parts for that last one obviously).

My favourite one-dude-versus-mecha moments in anime are from the '90s: that bit late in Gasaraki and one particularly great episode of Gundam 08th MS Team. Interested to hear about a show that is all about that concept...

I didn't put out a top three on twitter, but since other people have put theirs here: Project A-Ko, Akira, Gunbuster (three-way tie).
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:48 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
I can forgive DYRL for all of the stupid it presents in pacing and interaction because the film and its execution just press my buttons in such a fashion that few anime ever do.


"Stupid" would seem appropriate if DYRL was trying and failing to be straight-up drama, but does that apply to space opera? It's just so out there and fantastic that I don't see how "stupid" can apply any more than it would to a Brothers Grimm tale. I submit that this is more contempt than criticism.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:05 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
I can forgive DYRL for all of the stupid it presents in pacing and interaction because the film and its execution just press my buttons in such a fashion that few anime ever do.


"Stupid" would seem appropriate if DYRL was trying and failing to be straight-up drama, but does that apply to space opera? It's just so out there and fantastic that I don't see how "stupid" can apply any more than it would to a Brothers Grimm tale. I submit that this is more contempt than criticism.


The difference is that taken by itself with no TV show or the rest of the universe to lay the groundwork and backstory, I can see how people might not like DYRL. And those would be the same people who loathe Macross 7 and probably won't enjoy Frontier either. 7 is also full of a bunch of stupidity, but I love it dearly. Viewing DYRL through the scope that it's a condensed and repackaged SDF does make it one of my favorite anime ever, but I still won't deny that it lacks elements vital to storytelling and coherence. But then again, I don't care. That's not why I watch and admire DYRL. I am watching it for the frollicking in the shopping mall, the stealing of the practice fighter to go off galavanting in the rings of Saturn, Kakizaki getting hilariously shot down right after his sexist comment, and especially the entire DYRL sequence where the Zentradi are won over and music saves the Earth. I can't tell you know many times I've rewatched those 6-odd minutes. DYRL is why I love the more whimsical sides of Macross as opposed to the ultra serious attempts like Zero. It's why I'm currently loving Aquarion EVOL much more than it's predecessor. Honestly, my opinion of DYRL is to biased to do a proper criticism, but I can recognize some of what Zac points out.

Running an anime club was a while was pretty nice, I actually showed them Bobby's in Deep/Bobby's Girl among a bunch of other older titles. While most of it much like Nineteen-19 or To-Y, where you have disaffected youth and their struggles in the 80s with relationships, I think the reason most people even bother with that OVA is just for the fantastic animation toward the end. That's how I was introduced to it by Otaking, who we all know won't ever shut up about SHADING.

The problem with Honneamise's rape isn't so much that Shiro attempts it, it's the reaction and expedient forgiveness afterward and the failure to explain her position or attitude as to why. You can see Shiro's sexual frustration building leading up the event, but without any kind of real resolution, yeah, it just leaves an awkward stain on the otherwise fantastic film. Maybe Riquinni is actually a prostitute, as speculated by that bag of money, but it still doesn't properly address or justify her quickness to move on and forget it. As hard as it is, it's probably best to just ignore the entire episode.
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penguintruth



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 8475
Location: Penguinopolis
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:21 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:

The problem with Honneamise's rape isn't so much that Shiro attempts it, it's the reaction and expedient forgiveness afterward and the failure to explain her position or attitude as to why. You can see Shiro's sexual frustration building leading up the event, but without any kind of real resolution, yeah, it just leaves an awkward stain on the otherwise fantastic film. Maybe Riquinni is actually a prostitute, as speculated by that bag of money, but it still doesn't properly address or justify her quickness to move on and forget it. As hard as it is, it's probably best to just ignore the entire episode.


Riquinni is deeply religious and probably believed, on some level, that because she was prostituting herself to get by, she deserved that attack.

In a scene after this, Shiro is nearly killed by an assassin. He gets what's coming, karmically.
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:47 pm Reply with quote
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
Honestly, my opinion of DYRL is to biased to do a proper criticism, but I can recognize some of what Zac points out.


I thought Zac was opining as well, this being a personal top ten and all, but I'm always wrestling with opinion/criticism; is it biased to hate 80s Jpop and whimsical storytelling or are these flaws? I was surprised Daryl was so quiet about it after having done a podcast showering the thing with affection.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:51 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
Honestly, my opinion of DYRL is to biased to do a proper criticism, but I can recognize some of what Zac points out.


I thought Zac was opining as well, this being a personal top ten and all, but I'm always wrestling with opinion/criticism; is it biased to hate 80s Jpop and whimsical storytelling or are these flaws? I was surprised Daryl was so quiet about it after having done a podcast showering the thing with affection.


Yeah, not to spoil anything but Daryl just might talk about DYRL in Part II.
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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:58 pm Reply with quote
dewlwieldthedarpachief wrote:
walw6pK4Alo wrote:
Honestly, my opinion of DYRL is to biased to do a proper criticism, but I can recognize some of what Zac points out.


I thought Zac was opining as well, this being a personal top ten and all, but I'm always wrestling with opinion/criticism; is it biased to hate 80s Jpop and whimsical storytelling or are these flaws? I was surprised Daryl was so quiet about it after having done a podcast showering the thing with affection.


I can't tell, I like cheesy 80s anime soundtracks, especially synth and discoesque. It gets my blood flowing for the anime, like Sands of Illusion in Area 88's Burning Mirage. Given that Zac seems mostly new or unfamiliar with older robot anime, maybe he hasn't seen SDF Macross, and he certainly has not and likely wouldn't sit through Macross 7. Speaking of whimsy, Urusei Yatsura is chalk full of it, and even Mamoru Oshii can't escape it Beautiful Dreamer, where you have the endless summer of the cast roller skating, watching the original Godzilla, and basically just dicking around because everything is given to them and they have no responsibilities. In contrast with the movie's tone, are those elements out of place, or do they help to reinforce it? Also, Macross has always been about pointing out and subtly laughing at things in the mecha genre, it wasn't created in a vacuum, and parts of DYRL might actually come from UY: Only You, like the scene in front giant windows overlooking the space battle outside.

I, like Daryl, also saw "Once Upon a Time" first and disliked it, but luckily I sort of pushed it aside because I was binging on anime at the time. And then after coming back years later, after watching some of Yuyama's other anime, I really enjoyed the film immensely, and especially the character design it shares with Genmu Senki Leda. I also really dig the soundtrack, some of the tracks like Theme of Druid are haunting and instill a hopeless despair.

For Riding Bean, you gotta get dat BluRay. There are a bunch of scratches and dust on the film, but it looks miraculous.


Last edited by walw6pK4Alo on Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:22 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Asterisk-CGY



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 398
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:29 pm Reply with quote
DUUUUDE Urusei Yatsura. I think the kicker is the use of Ataru. Love him but love watching him get picked on as well. Is was worth watching an episode a day.
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CG-LOVER



Joined: 22 Mar 2010
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Location: East Lansing, MI
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:39 pm Reply with quote
Like many here, I have also not seen much 80s anime so it would be pointless to come up with a list of my own. It's interesting though, as I have seen the original Macross TV series, but I have not seen the "Do You Remember Love?" movie. In the same boat, I have seen the original Mobile Suit Gundam series, but I have not seen the movie versions. I guess it just really comes down to the fact that I actually quite enjoyed both of those shows on their own, so I guess I didn't really feel the need to watch a movie version of something I've already gotten plenty of enjoyment from. Could it be that the movies are indeed better? Sure, maybe. But I don't expect I'll be finding that out anytime soon as I'm content with what I've seen thus far.

Commenting on what was mentioned about Macross, or at least the movie anyway. I think it was Justin who said something like that could really only be appreciated by the "old-timers", or something to that effect. And, just assuming that would apply to the TV show as well, I guess I might be in the minority there. Because I'm only 21 years old myself, and I know I only saw the original Macross series about two years ago, and I gotta say that I really, really enjoyed it. I mean, I guess I can understand the idea that some of the concepts are ridiculous as Zac said. But in the end I guess I'd have to say I really appreciated the show more for its relationships that developed between the characters, and the drama that ensued as a result, more that the overall plot.

In addition, and I'm saying this as a big Gundam fan, I really did end up enjoying Macross a bit more than the original MSG series. I think the comments about MSG being too rushed and disjointed have merit, but really I think the deciding factor was just how ridiculously some of the characters in MSG behaved compared to Macross. That's not to say the characters in Macross weren't ridiculous at times, cause they certainly were, but there were just some times during MSG when Amuro would start acting so irrationally that I just wanted to punch him in the face through my computer screen (thankfully Bright Noa did take care of that for me Wink ).

Oh, and is Char's name really supposed to be pronounced the way Tim said? Cause if so, I know at least the English dubs of MSG don't subscribe to that pronunciation (and being that I watch the dubs over the subs, neither do I). And with regards to that, I did search online and found this excerpt from a Wikipedia article that touches on the topic of Char's name:

Quote:
The three novels were translated into English by Frederik Schodt and published by Del Rey Books in September 1990. At the time, there were no officially recognized romanizations of character and mecha names, and a variety of different spellings were being used in the English-language fan community. In the original three novels, therefore, Mr. Schodt wrote the name "Char" as "Sha." "Sha" is a transliteration of the Japanese pronunciation, although Mr. Tomino later publicly confirmed at Anime Expo New York 2002 that the name was originally based on the French name Charles Aznavour, a popular French-language singer. (Interestingly, the 2004 edition of the English translation revealed that Schodt felt that the "Char" rendering "seemed too close" to Aznavour's name.) He also rendered "Zaku" as "Zak," and (after consulting with Mr. Tomino) "Jion" as "Zeon," instead of "Zion," which was in use in some circles. Some North American fans, already attached to particular spellings, took great umbrage at Schodt's renditions, forgetting that in the original Japanese most character and mecha names are written in katakana, and that there were, therefore, no "official spellings." Many years later, when the Gundam series was finally licensed in North America, the rightsholders did come up with a unified list of "official spellings" for English-language material, and some of these spellings include Schodt's renditions, as well as the renditions to which certain North American fans were attached.

In 2004, Frederik Schodt revised his original translation of the books, which had been out of print for nearly a decade. What had been a three volume set in the 1990 Del Rey edition was re-released by Stone Bridge Press as one single volume of 476 pages (with a vastly improved cover design), titled Mobile Suit Gundam: Awakening, Escalation, Confrontation. Since the rights holders in Japan by this time had created a unified (although still evolving) list of romanized character and mecha names, Schodt was able to use it, and Amuro's rival in the novel thus became "Char" and not "Sha"; the popular Zeon Mobile Suit, similarly, became "Zaku," and not "Zak".


Now of course this is Wikipedia and I can't say that any of this is actually factually accurate, but based on what I see here I'm not so sure that Tim is correct with regards to the pronunciation of Char's name.

And for the record I do love Zeta Gundam too, so if public opinion has apparently soured on that show I'd really have to disagree with them then.
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ZenAmako



Joined: 10 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:18 pm Reply with quote
Macross: DYRL is similar to the Utena film in that while it is a retelling of a TV series in a different format, it pretty much expects the viewer to already be at least somewhat familiar with the characters. Much of DYRL is fan service for Macross fans.

It's also a film that wears its emotions on its sleeve. A lot of it could be called corny (especially in this day and age), but the feelings are genuine. This week, I revisited the great classic Casablanca on Blu-ray, and it gave me a similar feeling (just with fewer missiles and radioactive fish). DYRL is a film that could only have been made by the young or the young at heart. Ten years later, Macross Plus was a more cynical version (save for the Movie Edition coda), and by 1995 we had entered the age of Evangelion.

DYRL is my favorite anime of the 1980s. I'm sure nostalgia plays a big part: a remembrance of a simpler time. However, unlike some relics of the eighties, I feel it holds up pretty well. To this day, I have not seen more beautiful character designs in anime than Mikimoto's designs for this film. The soundtrack by the late Kentaro Haneda hits just the right note of wistfulness.

I would also like to mention a show that will probably not be discussed on the podcast, Super Dimension Century Orguss. Orguss will forever live in the shadow of SDF Macross, but it was a truly unique show which sort of combined the mech show with Alice in Wonderland to amusing effect. It was also directed by Noboru Ishiguro.

A few other eighties favorites:

- Bubblegum Crisis. Here's another one I'm expecting Zac to come down on. It's got Sonoda designs, almost nonstop '80s j-pop on the soundtrack, and some rather weak writing. But I love it. It's all style and energy. You can really feel the passion that went into making it.

- Windaria. In the US, Mutsumi Inomata (who also worked on Leda) is very underrated. She has a lot more fans in Japan. Her character designs for Windaria may not be on par with Mikimoto's, but I still think they're pretty great. Aside from the moving story, this also has a wonderful soundtrack with two vocal songs by Akino Arai (it was ironic when the end theme was included on the US "Best of Anime" CD when that song was deleted from the English dub of the film). About the voice actors, Tohru Furuya was everywhere in the '80s, wasn't he?

- Angel's Egg. Back in the day, this was one of the rarest, most sought after and expensive laserdiscs (by a few diehard collectors). Looking at it now, you might not guess it dates back to 1985. Amano's art typically loses a lot when it makes the jump to animation, but not here. This is one of the most atmospheric anime I've seen. It's also one of the few Oshii films without a dog.

- Kimagure Orange Road. This series definitely has its faults. It can be repetitive and juvenile. But when it works, it makes you recall a simpler, more innocent time - the lazy summer days of youth. Plus, Madoka is a babe, and Kanako Wada was the bomb back then.
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Surrender Artist



Joined: 01 May 2011
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Location: Pennsylvania, USA
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:24 am Reply with quote
Veers wrote:
I've seen some of the things discussed here but not many of them. Guess I have a good excuse now to get caught up!

Did anyone write down the lists? It'd be nice to have them for reference...


I happened to do just that. And here I thought it was presumptuous of me.

Tim Eldred:

10. Adieu Galaxy Express 999 (Toei, 1981]

9. Nausicaä of the Valley of the Winds (Top Craft, 1984)

8. Panzer World Gallient (Sunrise, 1984)

7. Armor Hunter Mellowlink (Sunrise, 1988)

6. Giant Gorg (Sunrise, 1984)


Daryl Surat:

10. Laputa, Castle in the Sky (Studio Ghibli, 1986)

9. Fist of the North Star* (Toei, 1984)

8. My Youth in Arcadia (Toei, 1982)

7. Project A-ko (Studio A.P.P.P., 1981)

6. Urusei Yatsura (Kitty Films, 1986)


Justin Sevakis:

10. The Super Dimension Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love? (Studio Nue, 1984)

9. Patlabor The Mobile Police (OAV I/1988) (Studio DEEN, 1988)

8. Royal Space Force – The Wings of Honnêamise (GAINAX, 1987)

7. Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket (Sunrise, 1989)

6. Windaria (Kaname Production, 1986)


Zac Bertschy:

10. Mobile Suit Gundam Movie Trilogy (Sunrise, 1981)

9. Fist of the North Star* (Toei, 1984)

8. Angel’s Egg (Studio DEEN, 1985)

7. Touch (Group TAC, 1985)

6. Riding Bean (AIC, ARTMIC Studios and Youmex, 1983)


Zac evidently missed his calling as a terrible radio disc jockey. We could use more men like that for our human cannibalism destination weddings. It was really appropriate and sweet to dedicate it to Noboru Ishiguro.

Most of my first anime was from the 80s because that was what The Sci-Fi Channel had to show on Saturday mornings when I was in elementary and junior high school, but I felt little sense of being part of anime fandom at the time, so I look back upon eighties anime with nostalgic fondness, but shallow knowledge.

I didn’t like Adieu Galaxy Express 999 anywhere near as much as I did the first one. I loved Galaxy Express 999 and the sequel just felt like just the same thing over again, which meant that the big moments felt stale. Adieu Galaxy Express 999 feels like an exaggerated version of the first. And it has less Maetel, who was my favorite part of Galaxy Express 999.

I prefer Nausicaä of the Valley of the Winds over Laputa, Castle in the Sky, but haven’t seen either in a very long time. My memory of Nausicaä of the Valley of the Winds is stronger than that of Laputa, Castle in the Sky, even though I saw both about as long ago at nearly the same time. Nausicaä of the Valley of the Winds has such an impressive protagonist and so many striking images, like the Ohms and God Warrior. All I can really remember about Laputa, Castle in the Sky is that Mark Hamil played one of the voices in the English dub.

Tetralogy is considered correct because –logy is a Greek root whereas quad- is a Latin prefix from quattuor, ‘four’.

I have a copy of Royal Space Force – The Wings of Honnêamise sitting on my nightstand, waiting for the right moment. I rented it on videocassette from a Blockbuster Video a long time ago, so although I liked it, my memory is very weak. I don’t even remember the rape scene. I’m curious, but filled with foreboding, although not moreso than with cheese, about seeing it now. I struggle to imagine that the scene will be too much for me to still like the film. That will depend upon its place and part in the story. I doubt that even a single very awful moment can override artful worldbuilding and sincerity. Nevertheless, it’s not like it’s Royal Rape Force – Wings of Rapêamise, although I will copyright that title for an eventual hentai parody that will be awful that make me want to kill myself, more than I already do for just being me.

I was surprised that Daryl put Fist of the North Star at the second to last place on his list. I guess that it’s a little like expecting Andy Kaufman to perform Latka Gravas.

Panzer World Galliant sounds rather interesting, even to somebody like me who doesn’t much care for giant robots.

Angels Egg is inscrutable, but fascinating and engaging. A friend lent a fansub, not the the subtitles are needed, of it to me in high school. I don’t think anybody remembers what it was supposed to be about, if it was ever intended to mean something. It has such fascinating, compelling images that I didn’t care if it meant nothing. I haven’t seen it in nearly a decade, but I still remember being amazed by the scene of the men with spears trying to catch the ghost coelacanth. I saw a desperate, rote futility in it. I can get absorbed into Angel’s Egg without needing to understand it. Anchor Bay did get the rights twelve years ago, but the the last relevant story indicates that it’s still in limbo. There is a report that refers to trouble getting, “quality assets,” for a release. DiscoTek should try to license it and make it their first original dub.

Zac and Justin should have an entire episode of ANNCast dedicated to the Saber Marionette J franchise. I say this because I am cruel.

So, Armor Fighter Mellowlink is Japan’s answer to Magnus, Robot Fighter?

Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket, along with The 08th MS Team is one of the few Gundam series that has stayed with me. The intimate scale and way it forms the relationships makes it very powerful. The first parts seem a little tedious and too obvious at first, but by the end, they feel vital to the emotional story. It didn’t pull its last punch, but instead let it really hurt.

Seeing Project A-ko on The Sci-Fi Channel when I was young enough that ‘parental discretion advised’ bumpers commanded me to watch is why I watch anime today. It was the first anime that I knew was anime. I didn’t get that it was supposed to be a comedy when I first saw it, but it works as better as just awesome than as a comedy. The commentary by Yuji Moriyama on the last Central Park Media and DiscoTek releases is really interesting and engaging.

The only reason that I’ve heard of Giant Gorg is because Mike Toole mentions it from time to time. I really like the design of the robot in Giant Gorg, but it just doesn’t sound interesting. I’ve never really liked that genre and it doesn’t sound like it has a hook that would appeal to me.

I Giant Gorg is Japan’s answer to Johnny Quest, what’s they answer to The Venture Bros?

I love emotional sucker punches. I should try to see Windaria some time. It’s a goddamned shame that no good official English version exists.

Could MD Geist Kill It?, with Daryl Surat should be a regular segment.

So, I suppose we have to wait for next week for you all talk about The Humanoid

*Intrusive <r> removed per correction.


Last edited by Surrender Artist on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:37 pm; edited 4 times in total
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treatment



Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 149
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:50 am Reply with quote
meh.

i tuned out early from the audiocast when these three stooges started pronouncing "Macross" as "Lacrosse".

srlsy, guys. it was reallly grating.

the japanese cast, crews and even commercials throughout the years never pronounced it that way.

the original english dubs of robotech, macross-II and macross plus never pronounced it that way.

just coz of some minor trivia about some old bigwest exec being fond of "Macbeth" doesn't excuse you guys from pronouncing "Macross" in the stupid ADV-dubs way.

it was (and still is) just really stupid to hear it pronounced as "lacrosse".
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dewlwieldthedarpachief



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:14 am Reply with quote
I tuned out early from the boring troll when it said audiocast instead of podcast.
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JohnnySake



Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 585
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:19 am Reply with quote
Surrender Artist wrote:
Veers wrote:
Did anyone write down the lists? It'd be nice to have them for reference...


I happened to do just that. And here I thought it was presumptuous of me.


I was thinking the list would be a good thing as well, thank you for doing that! Smile Maybe Zac will have the entire top ten in the show notes when the second half airs next week. (hint hint) Laughing
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:16 am Reply with quote
I'm only at the 27 minute mark of the podcast, but I'm totally loving it. I have seen very little from the 80s so far, so this 80s retrospective will be extremely helpful in helping put together a watch list. As it happens, there has been a Studio Ghibli retrospective in Toronto for the last few weeks, so I've been able to watch Nausicaa and Castle in the Sky on the bigscreen (among a bunch of others, of course) which has been absolutely amazing. I prefer Castle in the Sky over Nausicaa, although I thoroughly enjoyed both. It's funny, only two years separate the two films, but from a technical/artistic standpoint, it looks like Nausicaa was made 10-15 years before Castle. Also the Miyazaki Unsubtle Hammer of Environmental Messaging was much more pronounced in Nausicaa. Still, you can't go wrong watching either one, that's for sure.
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