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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1455
Location: Serra Gaucha/Minnesota
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:30 pm Reply with quote
On flip flappers: Are they like really lesbians? I think their relationship can be interpreted as platonic.

Also, Papika is an animalistic character anyway so behaving like a dog is expected.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 2504
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:17 pm Reply with quote
I thought one theme of Flip Flappers was Cocona's working out her sexual identity as part of its general coming-of-age subtext.

The writers certainly included many yuri hints in the show, especially spoiler[the nailclippers, the boarding school episode, and the negligee scene]. I don't know if I'd be as dismissive of Papika's love for Cocona as Chiibi is, but I agree that Papika's backstory and motivation was a bit strange to say the least.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1330
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:13 pm Reply with quote
In general, not just anime, mediocrity is worse than being particularly bad in terms of entertainment value. I'd rather watch Big Order than Samurai Deeper Kyo.

Also, it's better for an anime to create its own ending if its going to be discontinued because the manga is ongoing than it is to just stop in the middle of an arc. Berserk's ending is worse than Ouran's or Great Teacher Onizuka's.
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Chiibi



Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 3791
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:36 pm Reply with quote
Jose Cruz wrote:


Also, Papika is an animalistic character anyway so behaving like a dog is expected.


Which makes any ship with her feel ALL THE MORE WEIRD.

For me, at least.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1330
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:28 pm Reply with quote
Like it's any worse than the single worst character from Black Butler (seasons one or two): Pluto. This character was an insulting, annoying, childish, pandering to the lowest demographic of viewer THING. For the record, I think it's fair to say that I don't mind furry characters or pet characters. Heck, I don't even really mind the whole "person is a cat-demon so they say 'nyan' every few sentences" thing. What I do mind is that Pluto is supposed to be a sex fantasy come to life. Whatever "comedic" scenes he's in always have this undertone of -wink wink- to them. Not to mention that he's naked half the time, jumps on people like a dog, and basically IS a dog in the body of an unreasonably bishounen adult man in a show meant for kids and teenagers.

I think he's in the same realm as Aoshi from Rurouni Kenshin in terms of popularity among the fans. That is to say that most people I've met have reacted to my dislike of him with a "Really? I thought he was a good character." Then after I state my first two or three complaints about him, most people would start to reconsider and say "Really...? Huh. It's been a while since I watched it. Thinking back, he was never my favorite part."

I would be sincerely surprised to find anyone that specifically likes Pluto. I don't even have a problem with the archetype he's apart of. It's just the portrayal that irks me. If he were a fully clothed shota boy who could talk in broken sentences, this behavior would be... mildly cute I guess. As a full grown adult who rarely gets dressed!? Heck no! And before anyone says "But Louis, this isn't his real form. He's actually a demon hound thing that looks like a big dog!" I implore you to ask yourselves this: Why did the writers give him this human form? They could've given him a dog form and it would have been much more appropriate and charming!

I don't HATE the archetype he's a part of either. The archetype of the fanservice-y character who acts developmentally disabled is a VERY difficult one to pull off. I'll just say that I actually liked the cat-girl from K Project, and Chii from Chobits might have been the first time I thought an anime girl was REALLY cute (in more of the way that Maes Hughes thinks his daughter is cute though. I'm not into the whole "cute girl who is so childlike that you need to wipe her bum for her" thing. It's creepy and draining when you really think about it).

Before anyone says "Oh! Those are all girl examples! You're just as guilty as the rest of us!" I'll reply now. No I'm not. There just aren't many male examples to choose from, and I've seen female versions of this type done VERY poorly. Chii develops and grows. She goes from only saying "Chii" to being able to learn enough about the world and social norms to hold a job and buy clothes. Then again, Chobits is one of the few good Magical Girlfriend shows that isn't Star vs The Forces of Evil so... that's why. By contrast, Nyu from Elfen Lied is a terrible example of this archetype. She only exists to artificially create tension and drama, and unlike Chii, she doesn't really move beyond being an adult-sized baby waifu.

Most good male versions that come to mind aren't fanservice characters, but they are good characters nonetheless. Yopopo from Gash Bell was adorable and I'm not ashamed to admit that his episode still makes me cry. Shippo from Inuyasha isn't godawful or anything, though he does feel a bit tagged on. Some of the cooler Digimon are human-type animals.

I think the key to making this archetype work is to make the character cute, not sexy. Adorable, not "smokin' hot." That's inherently easier with females over the age of 15 than it is with males in the same range, but when you have a grown naked man running around the mansion with NO ONE complaining, I start to wonder if I bought Black Butler, or a shota fanservice show with yaoi scenes.
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yuna49



Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 2504
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:28 pm Reply with quote
I thought Kimi no Na wa was pretty but boring.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1330
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:40 pm Reply with quote
Gee, if you think your name is boring, why not change it? Razz

No one? Aww...
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Mandragoras



Joined: 09 Oct 2017
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:33 pm Reply with quote
I liked Wolf's Rain better than Cowboy Bebop and got more invested in its characters overall. Both are series which I respect more than I love, but with the latter the gap is wider.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1330
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:31 am Reply with quote
Mandragoras wrote:
I liked Wolf's Rain better than Cowboy Bebop and got more invested in its characters overall. Both are series which I respect more than I love, but with the latter the gap is wider.


I can see that happening quite often honestly. It's not very easy to get invested emotionally in Cowboy Bebop. It's very Style over Substance. Wolf's Rain is the opposite. It focuses a lot more on the characters' inner mechanics.

As for me, I personally thought Space Dandy was Watanabe's best work, so you KNOW I'm in the minority. =D Also, I know Watanabe didn't really do Wolf's Rain, but I'm counting it anyway because he's basically the only member of the Cowboy Bebop staff to not move on to Wolf's Rain.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1330
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:48 pm Reply with quote
The rating system that most people use on MAL is flawed and wrong. Everyone seems to do this thing where they rate several aspects of a show and then average out the number like this:

Story - 4
Characters - 10
Art - 6
Animation - 9
Music - 8
Voice Acting - 6
Personal Enjoyment - 8
Overall: 7.3

This is stupid. Why should ANYTHING matter when rating an anime except for the "personal enjoyment." I actually told a friend of mine that I give season one of SAO a 3/10 and he acted like I rated it wrong. "The animation and music is so great! How is it anything less than a 6!?" I don't care how good you THINK anything is. Everything you rate is just your own opinion. ART is subjective so I don't know how anyone can think that there's a solid consensus on SAO's art. Some people I know are stupid and wrong and hate JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's art because they're pathetic plebs (JEEZ! I'M KIDDING GUYS! CALM DOWN!) while I think it's perfect. Animation is easier since it's just how well the art moves on the screen, but who is to say that Kill La Kill shouldn't get a 10/10 in that? The background characters (such as nameless henchmen) look the EXACT same and the movement is stuff you could pull off in clip art, but it's wholly intentional. Meanwhile, I know some people who would give the Ufotable adaptation of UBW a 10/10 because everything looks pretty, but others who would give it lower because most of the action scenes just result in the same generic energy blast light shows.

Finally, there's music, which is entirely subjective so there's no point in going into it. Even if you think a music fits a scene perfectly, someone else might not. Voice acting can be judged, sure, but what if you watched the show dubbed? Should the rest of the show be dragged down solely because it wasn't localized very well here?

And finally, we get to the ONLY thing that matters and the number I will always use when rating a show. My own personal enjoyment. How much did I like the show? Isn't that what you're asking when you tell me to rate something?

What's more, I love some shows that aren't animated that well like Princess Tutu and Golden Time. Music is important, but some of my favorite anime have kind of generic OSTs (Fate/Zero's BGM isn't Yuki Kajura's best, to be honest). I'll be upfront and say that Wolf's Rain wasn't that great to me despite it being perfect in terms of technical design. It's still worth watching, but for me personally, I'd give it a 7/10 (though when I first watched it, it was closer to a 9.
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Spawn29



Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 333
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:41 pm Reply with quote
I feel like most old violent anime get too harsh on today's fandom. Sure most of them may not be very good, but you should watch them as Grindhouse exploitation films. Enjoy them for the trash factor and like them for what they are. I take it that most modern anime fans never seen exploitation films like I Drink Your Blood, Rolling Thunder, Fiver Fingers of Death, They Call Her One Eye, I Spit on Your Grave and several others.

Sometimes you have like to things for what they are and not everything needs to be high art like 2001: A Space Odyssey (Which is one of my #1 favorite movie BTW).

Not to mention I don't get how people get gross out by older anime like Devilman, Violence Jack and Wicked City while modern anime titles like Hellsing Ultimate, Corpse Party, Elfen Lied, Blood C, Higurashi When They Cry, Tokyo Ghou, etc. have similar levels of blood and gore like older anime.

Berserk has similar levels of blood, gore and dark themes like Devilman and yet Devilman is look down as being sick and gross despite the two having similar content.
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TheAnimeRevolutionizer



Joined: 03 Nov 2017
Posts: 60
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:12 pm Reply with quote
Incoming!

*I think Battle Arena Toshinden was an OVA series that should have been salvaged and done strictly with Kotobuki Tsukasa's artwork. It may seem like a totally generic fighting game OVA that tries to coattail on Street Fighter II The Animated Movie, but believe me, if it had the chance to be its own anime series than an OVA, it would have been amazing. As a hardcore otaku of the series, there is a lot on the setting of Toshinden that didn't make it due to poor implementation of story to game narrative. I've read through supplementary materials, and boy, it would have been a true staple of the 1990s should it had been done right. The Secret Society being a network of industrial fronts since the 16th Century out of Europe who have had major influences in industry and the criminal underworld, including the diamond and electronics business. Ties to actual stories of myth and legend and even history, like King Arthur and the Round Table, the influence of the nation of Sri Lanka into the Secret Society, and the Treasure of the Langanatis of the Incan Empire. The Organization being a hidden cabal of black magic and ritual sacrifice by the human slave trade who have been responsible for the vast majority of human conflict and warfare and derive their influence from a lost Greek god of the fight. The actual Tower of Babel existing into the current day, and the eternal mysteries that lie behind it and Sho Shinjo, its constant visitor. This is like Castle of Caligostro levels of conspiracy here people. I'm actually disappointed that Toshinden didn't succeed in making an anime series. And this story from one of the key writers of the very first episodes of the Pokemon anime.

*Like Yesterday is a terrible movie, at least for me. I'm actually surprised that it was the highest grossing movie of 1991 in Japan for crying out loud. The story's a loosely and weak connected narrative derived from a cute slice of life manga. Man, if Studio Ghilbi ever wanted to shoot themselves in the foot, they could do it by making more movies like Like Yesterday. It's this piece of lukewarm mildly sweet but bland fluff filled in with nothing but organic farming. Talk about a piece of work for its time, but wow, conflict is the soul of drama, and for it being a slice of life drama movie, it is weak.

*I love Cowboy Bebop, but wow do I absolutely despise its fanbase. Infact, I absolute despise any rotten end of fandoms of anime that have done great in the US.... and these fools complaining about anything that doesn't cater to them.

KyuuA4 wrote:
American anime needs to expand. The potential for new genres and new story lines is way too great.


Hey, I'm not alone on this!
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Spawn29



Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 333
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:53 pm Reply with quote
I agree that the Cowboy Bebop fandom is annoying. You have Bebop fans that act like the series is the most original thing ever and it created everything new in the genre. Despite the fact that you had similar titles like Gunsmith Cats that was similar to Bebop a few years before it.

Other unpopular opinions of mine:

- I like Vampire Hunter D better than Hellsing. I still think Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust is the best vampire anime in my opinion for having amazing animation, a great cast of characters and a cool mythology. While the first Vampire Hunter D anime has aged poorly outside of the great animation, I do think the second movie still holds up well. The second movie had characters that go through story arcs and a better main villain in my opinion.

I do like the Hellsing manga and Ultimate a lot, but I do think people do over hype it. It's a good series, but not even close to the best thing ever. Not to mention it's nowhere as hardcore with the violence and blood. Hellsing Ultimate is Barney compare to most titles out there.

- Blood: The Last Vampire and Kite are overrated when it comes to the last of the old school OVAs. I think Blood: The Last Vampire has great animation, but I didn't think the story was that good. Kite also had great anime and a weak story in my opinion. I remember when the anime fandom back in 1999 really over hype Kite.

My biggest issue with Kite is that I didn't care for the characters that much. I also didn't like some of the themes in the story with hinted pedophilia. I get gross out when adults want to have sex with kids and young teens. I only seen the edited version of Kite and some of the themes of pedophillia are still there (They don't show sex scenes, but you still have characters with dirty thoughts of [expletive] the main 15 year old girl from what I can remember).
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Jose Cruz



Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 1455
Location: Serra Gaucha/Minnesota
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:25 pm Reply with quote
Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is a boring show. Just people talking about boring stuff. Meh.

Shinichiro Watanabe stuff is ok but I don't think anything he did is really GREAT. It's nice entertainment but that just it.

@louis6578, I think you are just reflecting the sexual repression of Western culture on Japanese visual culture: What's the problem in depicting a man acting like a cute animal because it's a sexual fetish? No problem at all.

I like the fanservice in Strike Witches. It works as something subversive and rebellious by being so obvious: it tells the audience "look at those camera angles!"
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1330
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:40 am Reply with quote
It's less a problem with sexuality in anime and more a problem with Japan thinking that it's somehow more acceptable or attractive to have someone unknowingly or unwillingly be sexually provocative. Pluto always comes across as a grown man with some type of developmental disability, not a cute dog in a human body. There's no reason he couldn't have just been an actual dog.
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