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INTEREST: MyNavi Poll: When Fans Are Let Down by Foreign Live-Action Adaptations


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Yttrbio
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:23 pm Reply with quote
invalidname wrote:
It's amusing and useful to think of how this would work in the other direction. Imagine, say, a Japanese Star Wars in which Luke ("Ruku"?) summons the force with a five-minute speech praising his noble ancestors, or Leia ("Reiya"?) is a clumsy moé girl with an ostensibly adorable catch-phrase.
I'm ready to pre-order.
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Primus



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:33 pm Reply with quote
Gon*Gon wrote:
Primus wrote:

configspace wrote:
Kinda like Justin Chatwin as Goku in DB evo.


There's nothing inherently wrong with Chatwin being Goku. He's only named "Goku" by an Asian man (Grandpa Gohan) who found him in the woods. His real name is Kakarot, and that's a pun based on carrots.

Dragon Ball doesn't really have defined settings other than things like "Mount Paozu" and "West City" so there's no much to change there.

Except he's clearly meant to be asian-looking. Atleast close enough so that most people would think he's asian.


Why you may ask? Because if Goku was white, he would have been drawn to look like General Blue.

Dragonball may have a different world from ours, but the world has individual races already, and they all have a very clear and defined look.


I can't believe I'm having a legitimate conversation about races in Dragon Ball again - a series where a talking dog is president of the world...

General Blue is from Earth. Goku isn't from Earth, but rather he's from Planet Vegeta. That's the first fault in your comparison.

Secondly, what exactly are we even comparing? These characters look nothing a like, as that is often the case with characters Toriyama gives more than 2 seconds of attention to. Goku and Nappa look nothing a like yet they're of the same species as stated in the actual series. Heck, Goku hardly looks like Raditz, and that's his brother. I'd concede that Blue is a character probably based on the real world west. But blonde short hair and blue eyes certainly don't define every white person. Chatwin played Goku in DBE, does he have blonde hair and blue eyes? No, and neither do I.

Yes, the name "Goku" is an Asian name in our world given it is based off of "Son Wukong" of Journey to the West - a Chinese legend. But that name was given to him by someone who lived on Earth, Grandpa Gohan. He is an alien from another planet. There's nothing there to suggest Goku isn't what we'd consider to be an Asian, but there's also nothing there that says he has to be. Unless you want to say the Saiyan race are all Asians, which would be incredibly hard to prove given every piece of technology, and their culture outside of being barbarians is stolen from others.

Contrary to what you said, races in Dragon Ball aren't really defined. Yes, there are people we could base our races on due to their skin colour, but this is Dragon Ball, and that's not a sound plan. Largely because setting is never defined. We see a lot of random plains, deserts, and icebergs in Dragon Ball but we never see them in relation to the rest of Earth, and there certainly isn't a common theme of similar looking people in them.
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TitanXL



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:49 pm Reply with quote
Primus wrote:
But blonde short hair and blue eyes certainly don't define every white person. Chatwin played Goku in DBE, does he have blonde hair and blue eyes? No, and neither do I


However, that's the trademark of Westerners in anime, in addition to but not limited to: big noses, different mouth flaps, more expressive body language when they talk, swearing, and so forth. It's like those old cartoons with characters with yellow skin and slanty eyes; yeah, it's not a 100% realistic accurate depiction of an ethnicity, but that's how they portay that race in that animation.

Though if you want to be technical, Blue is German, not American. But he is supposed to be white.
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Beatdigga



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:13 pm Reply with quote
Personally, I'm surprised the "has nothing to do with the original/major changes" option got less votes. Chatwin's white, fine. HE CAN'T ACT. The script was garbage.
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GhostShell



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:39 pm Reply with quote
Interesting that more females responded to the poll than males (482 versus 380).
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Gon*Gon



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:37 am Reply with quote
Primus wrote:
General Blue is from Earth. Goku isn't from Earth, but rather he's from Planet Vegeta. That's the first fault in your comparison.

Quote:
But blonde short hair and blue eyes certainly don't define every white person.


Except every single whites ARE blonde haired and blue eyed. Just like how every blacks have charcoal like skin and giant red lips in Dragonball.

You're skipping one very crucial piece of information. Races ARE easily defined in anime!

Japanese(and to some extent, asians in general) people look normal in anime. Whites, blacks, and indians on the other hand must be codified for the benefit of the audience. If Goku's appearance was meant to resemble Justin Chatwin, then we'd have plenty of cues to point it out.

But no, Goku as far as anyone is concerned, could easily have passed off as Gohan's grandson. Did you think Goku was an alien before you watched Z and was told about it? No one did.
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rinmackie



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:47 am Reply with quote
Gon*Gon wrote:
Primus wrote:
General Blue is from Earth. Goku isn't from Earth, but rather he's from Planet Vegeta. That's the first fault in your comparison.

Quote:
But blonde short hair and blue eyes certainly don't define every white person.


Except every single whites ARE blonde haired and blue eyed. Just like how every blacks have charcoal like skin and giant red lips in Dragonball.

You're skipping one very crucial piece of information. Races ARE easily defined in anime!

Japanese(and to some extent, asians in general) people look normal in anime. Whites, blacks, and indians on the other hand must be codified for the benefit of the audience. If Goku's appearance was meant to resemble Justin Chatwin, then we'd have plenty of cues to point it out.

But no, Goku as far as anyone is concerned, could easily have passed off as Gohan's grandson. Did you think Goku was an alien before you watched Z and was told about it? No one did.


So.. I guess Sailor Moon and Sailor Venus are Americans? Sorry, but blonde hair/blue eyes does not alway mean American or Westerner.
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yuna49



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:54 am Reply with quote
Why don't we see the same kind of outrage expressed over character models in anime generally? I don't see people picketing outside studios demanding that anime characters be drawn to look more japanese.
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ArsenicSteel



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:00 am Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
Why don't we see the same kind of outrage expressed over character models in anime generally? I don't see people picketing outside studios demanding that anime characters be drawn to look more japanese.

Because those character models are how Japanese artists are currently interpreting the appearance of Japanese people in their eyes. You won't be seeing many Japanese artists using yellow skin and slanted eyes in a depiction of their race.
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rinmackie



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:26 am Reply with quote
ArsenicSteel wrote:
yuna49 wrote:
Why don't we see the same kind of outrage expressed over character models in anime generally? I don't see people picketing outside studios demanding that anime characters be drawn to look more japanese.

Because those character models are how Japanese artists are currently interpreting the appearance of Japanese people in their eyes. You won't be seeing many Japanese artists using yellow skin and slanted eyes in a depiction of their race.


Uh, there is a way to draw Asians without using racist caricatures. I've actually seen a few anime with more realistic-looking Japanese/Asians. But apparently you haven't, but I assure you they're out there. So there is an option other than "white person who is supposed to be Japanese" and "racist stereotype".
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Gon*Gon



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:29 pm Reply with quote
rinmackie wrote:


So.. I guess Sailor Moon and Sailor Venus are Americans? Sorry, but blonde hair/blue eyes does not alway mean American or Westerner.

Two completely different anime you're talking about.


In Sailor Moon, characters have all the colors of the rainbow as hair color and are still japanese. Their race is what the author wants them to be. Since people have hair and eyes of all colours of the rainbow and still japanese, any foreigners depicted will likely have to have something else unique to depict themselves. Don't ask me what they are, I don't even watch it.


In Dragonball, Toriyama set a standard for what particular races should look. He included pretty much all the races and it's clear what race they're supposed to be. The only mystery is Bulma's race...
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ArsenicSteel



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:38 pm Reply with quote
rinmackie wrote:
ArsenicSteel wrote:
yuna49 wrote:
Why don't we see the same kind of outrage expressed over character models in anime generally? I don't see people picketing outside studios demanding that anime characters be drawn to look more japanese.

Because those character models are how Japanese artists are currently interpreting the appearance of Japanese people in their eyes. You won't be seeing many Japanese artists using yellow skin and slanted eyes in a depiction of their race.


Uh, there is a way to draw Asians without using racist caricatures. I've actually seen a few anime with more realistic-looking Japanese/Asians. But apparently you haven't, but I assure you they're out there. So there is an option other than "white person who is supposed to be Japanese" and "racist stereotype".


How do you assume that I've not seen anime that uses more realism than stylization just from that comment? Sorry that it came off as extreme but the point is Japanese people aren't going to complain about the current style of character models in anime just because those models are not heavily realistic or 'Asians through the eyes of Westerners'.
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yuna49



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:51 pm Reply with quote
ArsenicSteel wrote:
Japanese people aren't going to complain about the current style of character models in anime just because those models are not heavily realistic or 'Asians through the eyes of Westerners'.


My comment was intended to be more humorous than anything else. It does seem a bit inconsistent though to complain about the use of non-Japanese actors in live-action adaptations of material where the drawn characters often don't look Japanese to begin with.
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ArsenicSteel



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:10 pm Reply with quote
yuna49 wrote:
ArsenicSteel wrote:
Japanese people aren't going to complain about the current style of character models in anime just because those models are not heavily realistic or 'Asians through the eyes of Westerners'.


My comment was intended to be more humorous than anything else. It does seem a bit inconsistent though to complain about the use of non-Japanese actors in live-action adaptations of material where the drawn characters often don't look Japanese to begin with.


...and my response is that the characters are drawn using a style that does look Japanese to the Japanese. There's no inconsistency among Japanese fans.
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Primus



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:32 pm Reply with quote
Gon*Gon wrote:
Primus wrote:
General Blue is from Earth. Goku isn't from Earth, but rather he's from Planet Vegeta. That's the first fault in your comparison.

Quote:
But blonde short hair and blue eyes certainly don't define every white person.


Except every single whites ARE blonde haired and blue eyed. Just like how every blacks have charcoal like skin and giant red lips in Dragonball.

You're skipping one very crucial piece of information. Races ARE easily defined in anime!

Japanese(and to some extent, asians in general) people look normal in anime. Whites, blacks, and indians on the other hand must be codified for the benefit of the audience. If Goku's appearance was meant to resemble Justin Chatwin, then we'd have plenty of cues to point it out.

But no, Goku as far as anyone is concerned, could easily have passed off as Gohan's grandson. Did you think Goku was an alien before you watched Z and was told about it? No one did.


So what you're saying are that all of the Saiyans are white people? Those who achieve Super Saiyan status all have blonde hair and blueish-green eyes naturally. If so, that clearly means Goku can be nothing but a white person! Asian people usually can't naturally have blonde hair, but white people can. White people can also have black hair. Therefore Saiyans can only be white people!

That wasn't a serious response by the way. I think your concept as to races in Dragon Ball is severely flawed given people like this exist in Dragon Ball:



That's Commander Red - a character designed by Toriyama that appears in the manga. Under your race guide to the Dragon Ball world he shouldn't exist. His hair's not black so he can't be Asian. His skin is way too light to be African, Aboriginal, or South East Asian and his hair's not blonde so he can't be white. So what is Commander Red? Well, guess what? Red hair is most common (though it's not common at all) in white people in our world. Whoops.

Also, Movie 12, which admittedly isn't stoyline canon, but still part of the Dragon Ball world features:



Another person who kind of has to be white suddenly not fitting your "all white people in anime have blonde hair blue eyes" theory . You could argue since he is a reference to a real life person he kind of had to look like that, but that doesn't change the fact he's a part of the Dragon Ball universe.

I also question if you really know Dragon Ball (and thus if you're even qualified for this conversation) all that much given you somehow think Bulma's race is in question. This is Bulma's mother:



Under your theory there can only be one option for Bulma, right? Bulma probably dyes her hair given how often it changes colour in the manga. Which, btw once had her with red hair. Double whoops.

As for your question about Goku in Dragon Ball, well...



(I'm teasing, I never would've remembered that)

I may have seen the original 13 episode dub of Dragon Ball as a young child but I doubt I'd ever imagine the show was anything but another kids cartoon. The only vivid memories I have of watching Dragon Ball comes from after DBZ premiered which kind of makes it impossible for me to not think of Goku as an alien given that's revealed in the first episode of Z.

Races in Dragon Ball just aren't 100% defined like you think they are, because Dragon Ball is a universe where a dog could become president. I really don't think this conversation is worth continuing anymore.
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