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INTEREST: Gainax Co-Founder Okada Shares Thoughts on Illegal Copying


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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:04 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:

These arguments express entitlement more than almost anything else.

The arguments express preference and assert an opinion over a way that the individuals think HBO could do better. "Entitlement" in the sense of believing one has a right to HBO's doing something is an entirely different matter. When Polycell says HBO "should" do something, he means that as an opinion. He doesn't mean someone should compel or force them to do it. That should be obvious by now as he's regularly stressed the non-aggression principle in his posts.

Even though I agree with his preference, I don't actually necessarily agree with his conclusion that HBO's model is broken. That's why I was careful to state that "I wish..." rather than "they should" in my post, but I think he has a right to his opinion and not to have it distorted.

Quote:

HBO's business model is wildly successful for them. They have millions and millions of subscribers.

Sure, but are you saying it's impossible for them to do better, simply because they are doing well? This is a non-sequitur that you don't state but you certainly seem to imply.

Quote:

It's like pointing to a crowded bakery with a line out the door and down the block every day and saying "I don't like the way they sell bread there, that place is a failure".

The example presents a non-sequitur. The fact a given bakery is crowded doesn't mean it's being run properly. It could be that that bakery is taking a loss on each piece of bread it sells and will eventually fail.
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Mune



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 376
Location: Minnesota
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:06 pm Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:

The example presents a non-sequitur. The fact a given bakery is crowded doesn't mean it's being run properly. It could be that that bakery is taking a loss on each piece of bread it sells and will eventually fail.


Unfortunately, anime is severely underpriced in countries aside from Japan. An example of this is Clannad anime series on Blu-ray. The Japanese release is still 43,437 yen on their Amazon site. The release from the U.S. is 6,450 yen. But, in the case made, being underpriced would be why the industry is failing in the U.S.?

Likewise, if the store has a long line, you may not want to wait in said line even if there was a discount or not. The reason for waiting is your desire for the item. If you desire it enough, you could wait days in a very long line. This only applies if you cannot get it somewhere else for a shorter wait.

You could have many options when dealing with anime. You could:
A) Buy the Japanese Blu-rays for 43,437 yen
B) Buy the American Blu-rays for 6,450 yen
C) Download the episodes legal methods for ~3,000 yen
D) Buy a bootleg for ~2,000 yen
E) Use a streaming site for ~1,200 yen/month
F) Download it for free for ~0

There are even more ways to get to see the anime you want. Friends, groups, organizations, using mailing methods, etc.
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Chunx



Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Lion City High Command
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:46 pm Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:
Quote:
Sure, but are you saying it's impossible for them to do better, simply because they are doing well? This is a non-sequitur that you don't state but you certainly seem to imply.


Since this is a business model which mainly concerns money, the adage "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" fits awfully well here. "If the model works, why complicate things?" is probably on the company's mind.
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RedSwirl



Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 344
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:57 pm Reply with quote
Carl Horn wrote:
While the Japanese industry has never been okay with illegal copies of the original anime or manga (that is, simply making unauthorized copies of an anime episode or a manga chapter), they generally tolerate and have even offered tacit endorsement of fans making (and also selling) fan works that use the original's characters or situations--I'm talking about doujinshi, of course. To show how long this co-existence has been around, consider that Comic Market was founded in 1975, before the anime boom of the late 1970s, and twenty years before manga would reach its circulation peak in Japan.

There have been cases where a particular Japanese company cracked down on a doujinshi. But generally speaking, a fan in Japan can draw a short comic using some anime or manga's characters, and perhaps even sell several thousand copies of it, and they are not going to get into trouble over it with the industry, the way people involved in illegal copying have been in Japan. If this weren't so, Comike and other doujinshi cons could not have grown to the size they are, not to mention brick-and-mortar doujinshi stores like Toranoana.

People sometimes say here that Japanese companies are behind the times, but there have been other Western IP commentators who are amazed at the relatively open and progressive environment toward intellectual property that the doujinshi scene represents. But like all environments, it requires a balance, and part of that balance in Japan has been that the original works themselves would be purchased, not just the doujinshi Anime smile


That's just doujinshi though. That's a little different from how they are responding to actual piracy.

But on that subject and digital, didn't Yoshitoshi Abe try to self-publish a Manga on iOS a while back? I remember he tried to simultaneously publish it in several languages too. Given your description of the doujinshi market, I wonder if the onset of digital has had any effect on that.
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bhl88



Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 255
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:43 pm Reply with quote
RedSwirl wrote:

That's just doujinshi though. That's a little different from how they are responding to actual piracy.

But on that subject and digital, didn't Yoshitoshi Abe try to self-publish a Manga on iOS a while back? I remember he tried to simultaneously publish it in several languages too. Given your description of the doujinshi market, I wonder if the onset of digital has had any effect on that.


Actually the government is responding against doujinshi but that's another topic: giving publishers the power to crack against doujinshi.
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:45 pm Reply with quote
Mune wrote:

Unfortunately, anime is severely underpriced

This is really an empirical argument, and if you really believe it's true you should probably start a business and prove it by outperforming the existing companies outside Japan.

Chunx wrote:

Since this is a business model which mainly concerns money, the adage "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" fits awfully well here. "If the model works, why complicate things?" is probably on the company's mind.

I have no disagreement with your comment here and it could be that it's the right way to look at it for HBO, but "innovate or die" is a real issue with business as things can break on their own due to inaction as well as action. If consumers have a real preference, they will jump ship when someone comes along to provide something in the way they prefer.
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inuhime



Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 33
Location: Windy City
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:18 pm Reply with quote
RedSwirl wrote:

Lastly you've got Manga - a medium in which the bootleg distributors are light years ahead of the official industry. We need the manga equivalent of simulcasts with digital subscriptions, or just put everything on Kindle. Again, Shonen Jump Alpha is a nice start.


I still buy print as manga on Kindle is hard to read sometimes, and trying to enlarge it doesn't work(at least not on the keyboard version). If that problem was dealt with, I'd be more willing to buy the Kindle versions instead of print.
Mune wrote:

Well, take into consideration anyone who watched/watches anime on television. They do not buy anything and simply view it on television. They never miss an episode, even if it is a rerun, but they never buy anything. In a scenario where the show is available on basic television stations and not cable or above. Are they considered a fan?

I have all of Inuyasha on DVD and I still watch it on AS if I'm getting ready to work an early shift on Sundays. It's same thing with my favorite movies. If I catch it airing, I will watch it, despite the fact that I've seen it plenty of times on BD and DVD. I'm just weird that way.
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Mune



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 376
Location: Minnesota
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:57 pm Reply with quote
Xanas wrote:

This is really an empirical argument, and if you really believe it's true you should probably start a business and prove it by outperforming the existing companies outside Japan.


Aniplex USA has already proven that it does work. They sold out of their Kara no Kyoukai Blu-rays during preordering. The day it came out, it had been sold out for months. The collection of 7 movies went for $398.98. That's 640 minutes, which equals about $0.62 a minute or $37.39 an hour. You can still buy the collection for over $700 at the cheapest.

Honestly, when was the last time an anime company sold out in the United States of an item aside from Aniplex USA? Plus, I remember many people complaining about the price, but the company still sold out, why might that be? For outperforming, I'm not sure, since I do not have the numbers for Aniplex USA nor other anime companies. It seems that Aniplex USA outperformed Bandai, as Aniplex USA is still acquiring anime licenses.
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Carl Horn



Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 90
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:35 am Reply with quote
RedSwirl wrote:
Carl Horn wrote:
While the Japanese industry has never been okay with illegal copies of the original anime or manga (that is, simply making unauthorized copies of an anime episode or a manga chapter), they generally tolerate and have even offered tacit endorsement of fans making (and also selling) fan works that use the original's characters or situations--I'm talking about doujinshi, of course. To show how long this co-existence has been around, consider that Comic Market was founded in 1975, before the anime boom of the late 1970s, and twenty years before manga would reach its circulation peak in Japan.

There have been cases where a particular Japanese company cracked down on a doujinshi. But generally speaking, a fan in Japan can draw a short comic using some anime or manga's characters, and perhaps even sell several thousand copies of it, and they are not going to get into trouble over it with the industry, the way people involved in illegal copying have been in Japan. If this weren't so, Comike and other doujinshi cons could not have grown to the size they are, not to mention brick-and-mortar doujinshi stores like Toranoana.

People sometimes say here that Japanese companies are behind the times, but there have been other Western IP commentators who are amazed at the relatively open and progressive environment toward intellectual property that the doujinshi scene represents. But like all environments, it requires a balance, and part of that balance in Japan has been that the original works themselves would be purchased, not just the doujinshi Anime smile


That's just doujinshi though. That's a little different from how they are responding to actual piracy.


Well, yes, that's what I meant by the part after "that the doujinshi scene represents" Anime smile It's precisely because the Japanese industry tends to be tolerant towards fan use (and even fan money-making) off their characters that they have to sharply demonstrate where they do draw the line--at the piracy of the original works themselves.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:24 am Reply with quote
Mune wrote:
Xanas wrote:

This is really an empirical argument, and if you really believe it's true you should probably start a business and prove it by outperforming the existing companies outside Japan.


Aniplex USA has already proven that it does work. They sold out of their Kara no Kyoukai Blu-rays during preordering. The day it came out, it had been sold out for months. The collection of 7 movies went for $398.98. That's 640 minutes, which equals about $0.62 a minute or $37.39 an hour. You can still buy the collection for over $700 at the cheapest.

Honestly, when was the last time an anime company sold out in the United States of an item aside from Aniplex USA? Plus, I remember many people complaining about the price, but the company still sold out, why might that be? For outperforming, I'm not sure, since I do not have the numbers for Aniplex USA nor other anime companies. It seems that Aniplex USA outperformed Bandai, as Aniplex USA is still acquiring anime licenses.


They're selling out because they put out a couple hundred BR/DVDs into America. FMA Brotherhood didn't sell out because Funimation made thousands of copies. Also the products that they do sell would do well if they actually did put a dub on them. This isn't like BVUSA which tried to sell SRW and Galaxy Angel Rune to fans. As for AUSA actually making money Aniplex USA doesn't have to actually put any money or effort into their products. Despite the name Aniplex USA's main focus is still on Japan.
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loka



Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:28 am Reply with quote
Mune wrote:

Aniplex USA has already proven that it does work. They sold out of their Kara no Kyoukai Blu-rays during preordering. The day it came out, it had been sold out for months. The collection of 7 movies went for $398.98. That's 640 minutes, which equals about $0.62 a minute or $37.39 an hour. You can still buy the collection for over $700 at the cheapest.

Honestly, when was the last time an anime company sold out in the United States of an item aside from Aniplex USA? Plus, I remember many people complaining about the price, but the company still sold out, why might that be? For outperforming, I'm not sure, since I do not have the numbers for Aniplex USA nor other anime companies. It seems that Aniplex USA outperformed Bandai, as Aniplex USA is still acquiring anime licenses.


Do you watch enough anime to realize that Kara no Kyoukai is not just some random show? Aniplex knew their market. Go ahead and try that with some vapid excuse for a license like Medaka Box. Do you believe that it will also perform so well at a price point in the hundreds, even with limited edition physical extras?
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Sunday Silence



Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 2047
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:54 am Reply with quote
Mune wrote:
But, in the case made, being underpriced would be why the industry is failing in the U.S.?


I would have to say with the US markets, it's the sense of self-satisfaction rather than being underpriced. You could sell anime and manga for a booty shake, but unless it's released the same day as in GLORIOUS NIPPON, heh, your ****ed.

Honestly, the Anime Companies have been staring at the problem square in the face for YEARS, yet the only actions they've done is a slow transition to streaming same day and legal takedowns. And yet the solution is staring them right in the face.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Posts: 4623
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:02 am Reply with quote
Let me explain my HBO comment: Simply put, there's nothing intrinsically requiring HBO link their services to third-party cable companies. They already offer a lot of programming on their HBO Go app/Roku channel; there's no reason why they can't offer subscriptions for it directly or even stream their linear channels. None of this would require any big change in how HBO operates and the setup cost would basically be pocket change to them(especially if they don't bother with live streaming). It's like a wildly successful bakery just off a major access road requiring you to take a pricey tollway and refusing to pave maybe a hundred square feet: sure, it works, but it's just leaving money on the table.
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Norbie



Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 126
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:10 am Reply with quote
scchan wrote:
...... "Your animator needs cookie money". Smile


Or a decent feed.......roof over their heads......gas........a blanket keep them warm.....really nice pencils and pens.... Wink


Be nice
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Xanas



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 2058
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:12 am Reply with quote
Mune wrote:

Aniplex USA has already proven that it does work. They sold out of their Kara no Kyoukai Blu-rays during preordering. The day it came out, it had been sold out for months. The collection of 7 movies went for $398.98.

They were only re-releasing something that was already being produced in Japan with an additional booklet if I recall, and in addition to that we don't know how many copies they actually produced or whether this was profit maximizing at all. Perhaps it was, but there isn't a way to know without knowing the volume of sales. The fact it sold out could be due purely to a low quantity of product.

Aniplex strategy really costed them next to nothing (other than loyalty perhaps, but I'm not sure how much that matters here).

They also can only do that with some shows, as many aren't desirable enough to people to sell at that price (or at least the quantity would be even less).

If Aniplex had proven to themselves with this incident that it "works" from a profit maximization perspective, they probably wouldn't be playing with other scenarios like what they did with Madoka. I admit the price is still higher than the norm there, but they've also hardly kept with that strategy either.
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