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NEWS: Sweden's Supreme Court Holds Trial for Translator's Child Pornography Charges


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Parse Error



Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 592
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:00 pm Reply with quote
dandelion_rose wrote:
This is why I don't really buy the 'no one is really harmed with drawings' argument about comics / animation versus censorship. I think if we look at the laws of various countries there are plenty of laws enacted in the spirit of prevention of harm rather than prosecution of wrongdoing.

A couple examples that immediately come to mind do cause actual, direct harm. If somebody threatens to blow up a plane or building, first off there's a panic where people could be injured or killed trying to escape, then you have a business that's shut down and can't make money or a school that can't teach kids while bomb squads eat up taxpayer dollars going over the area with a fine-toothed comb.

Likewise, a credible death threat causes an immense amount of distress and inconvenience to the target and their loved ones. Imagine that you knew you had a hitman contracted to kill you at random moment, for example, and what effect this would have on your life and well-being. There's really no comparison between something with that kind of immediate impact, versus some imaginary potential threat presented by somebody owning a comic book.


ScruffyKiwi wrote:
Quite frankly it doesn't matter. Like simulated rape videos, lolicon images are just illegal in most western countries and you have to get over it.

We're not talking about the immutable laws of physics here, but laws that people created and agreed to at one point, yet are usually free to repeal if they so choose. Laws can be changed when they're stupid and pointless, so it's absurd to suggest there's no point in discussing whether or not they are, as though nothing can ever be done about them.
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StudioToledo



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Toledo, U.S.A.
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:51 pm Reply with quote
I posted this elsewhere, but here's a report from Sveriges Radio on the matter...
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=5111006
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Greboruri



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 374
Location: QBN, NSW, Australia
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:49 pm Reply with quote
dandelion_rose wrote:
This is why I don't really buy the 'no one is really harmed with drawings' argument about comics / animation versus censorship. I think if we look at the laws of various countries there are plenty of laws enacted in the spirit of prevention of harm rather than prosecution of wrongdoing. You may not agree with them, but for plenty of societies, they're there.

Death threats, bomb threats, defamation etc are illegal acts and have nothing to with commercial or fan made comics films or music. It’s a worry when people can’t tell the difference between a fictional work and real threats of violence against a person or defamation of a person’s character. Straw man disassembled.
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dandelion_rose



Joined: 12 May 2012
Posts: 657
Location: Kuala Lumpur
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:34 pm Reply with quote
Parse Error wrote:
Likewise, a credible death threat causes an immense amount of distress and inconvenience to the target and their loved ones. Imagine that you knew you had a hitman contracted to kill you at random moment, for example, and what effect this would have on your life and well-being. There's really no comparison between something with that kind of immediate impact, versus some imaginary potential threat presented by somebody owning a comic book.


I'd somehow gotten the impression that this was the direction the Swedish prosecutors were taking concerning h-manga -- that the drawn pictures could be a potential threat -- but re-reading the news article it doesn't say that. (I think I read too quickly and conflated what the guy's defense said with the prosecution.)
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3820
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:50 pm Reply with quote
faintsmile1992 wrote:
Banken wrote:
Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
Fletcher1991 wrote:
He's still a weirdo for looking at lolicon hentai porn, and maybe he should go see a psychiatrist, but I don't think he should be convicted for criminal charges unless he actually committed an act against a child.


I don't really see why since the legal age of consent in Sweden in 15 and most people think lolis are this age >_>
http://www.ageofconsent.com/sweden.htm


It's 16 in Japan and most of America (including the military), but that doesn't mean you won't get fired/ostracized for 'dating' a 16 year-old.
Something that would have been legal throughout history just about anywheres, think of 40 year old kings marrying 15 year old princesses. Nowadays 18yos can get sent down for shagging 15 year olds, but fags can get married so we have 'sexual freedom' lolololol.

But anyway isn't a true loli aged under 13 (Japan's age of consent) anyway?


yeah but most consider oreimo kirinio, kuroneko, raidex's misaka, kuroko to be loli's when they aren't. It's fun looking up doujins having them tagged as such but this is getting into creepy terrioty right now and I will save that for rant at "my personal blog"
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
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Location: Wales
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 8:57 pm Reply with quote
The Daily Mail has picked up this ball and run in a completely different, albeit predictable, direction.

"Japan’s manga cartoons, which are intended for adults, frequently feature violent and explicit sex, in which innocent young girls falling prey to demonic men."

Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
If the scanlator was busted for doing some of rustles work then I can understand that frame of mind, from a mainstream person. Look up his art-work some time to see what i am talking about.

I'm still amused that the Metro used fan art by Rustle to illustrate an article on Vocaloid.

FinalArcadia wrote:
He could use the pictures to coerce kids? He could probably do that with candy, too. Is candy illegal to have now as well?

Grooming is a real thing. Not so much "coerce" as "Look what this little girl is doing. See how she's enjoying herself? Do you want to try that too?". Because I haven't quoted him nearly enough in the past:

Jonathan Clements wrote:
It was initially a shock to me, some ten years ago, when I heard the BBFC ruling that Overfiend IV might be used "by pedophiles to entice children". The concept of 'grooming' wasn't one I'd ever heard before. [...] It's why you really, really do not wan't some nonce showing hentai pictures to children and using that as a means to convince them that what they see is normal, aacceptable and indeed encouraged.
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Greboruri



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 374
Location: QBN, NSW, Australia
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:57 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
Grooming is a real thing. Not so much "coerce" as "Look what this little girl is doing. See how she's enjoying herself? Do you want to try that too?". Because I haven't quoted him nearly enough in the past:

Jonathan Clements wrote:
It was initially a shock to me, some ten years ago, when I heard the BBFC ruling that Overfiend IV might be used "by pedophiles to entice children". The concept of 'grooming' wasn't one I'd ever heard before. [...] It's why you really, really do not wan't some nonce showing hentai pictures to children and using that as a means to convince them that what they see is normal, aacceptable and indeed encouraged.

There's no evidence that paedophiles have used this kind of material to groom victims with. None whatsoever, outside the overactive imaginations of the BBFC and prosecutors.
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dormcat
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Joined: 08 Dec 2003
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Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:06 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
The Daily Mail has picked up this ball and run in a completely different, albeit predictable, direction.

"Japan’s manga cartoons, which are intended for adults, frequently feature violent and explicit sex, in which innocent young girls falling prey to demonic men."

Guess the reporter had read too much Takao Saeki. Rolling Eyes
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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3820
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:57 pm Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
The Daily Mail has picked up this ball and run in a completely different, albeit predictable, direction.

"Japan’s manga cartoons, which are intended for adults, frequently feature violent and explicit sex, in which innocent young girls falling prey to demonic men."

Cecilthedarkknight_234 wrote:
If the scanlator was busted for doing some of rustles work then I can understand that frame of mind, from a mainstream person. Look up his art-work some time to see what i am talking about.

I'm still amused that the Metro used fan art by Rustle to illustrate an article on Vocaloid.

FinalArcadia wrote:
He could use the pictures to coerce kids? He could probably do that with candy, too. Is candy illegal to have now as well?

Grooming is a real thing. Not so much "coerce" as "Look what this little girl is doing. See how she's enjoying herself? Do you want to try that too?". Because I haven't quoted him nearly enough in the past:

Jonathan Clements wrote:
It was initially a shock to me, some ten years ago, when I heard the BBFC ruling that Overfiend IV might be used "by pedophiles to entice children". The concept of 'grooming' wasn't one I'd ever heard before. [...] It's why you really, really do not wan't some nonce showing hentai pictures to children and using that as a means to convince them that what they see is normal, aacceptable and indeed encouraged.


hahahaha oh wow and saved.. that's just great
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ambercrystal



Joined: 14 May 2012
Posts: 9
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:10 am Reply with quote
Everyone seems to have some interesting opinions on this matter.
I can sort of understand the uneasiness some people feel when they see certain manga images, because as outsiders to this medium, they would probably not really understand.
However, I do believe that the court probably has more pressing matters to attend to, and it is a shame that they are dragging this man's name through the mud.
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LuScr



Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 140
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:24 am Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
The Daily Mail has picked up this ball and run in a completely different, albeit predictable, direction.

"Japan’s manga cartoons, which are intended for adults, frequently feature violent and explicit sex, in which innocent young girls falling prey to demonic men."


I've given up expecting anything more when the world at large looks at anime or manga.

I am amused by the Kiddy Grade image in the article, though.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:34 am Reply with quote
LuScr wrote:

I am amused by the Kiddy Grade image in the article, though.


Well, Eclair is most certainly of legal age, at least.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8360
Location: IL
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:38 am Reply with quote
I'm actually surprised they didn't go with Lumiere instead, or at least a group shot.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:42 am Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
I'm actually surprised they didn't go with Lumiere instead, or at least a group shot.


I was totally expecting Lumiere.

And yes, she really is 300 years old, dammit. That wine is not just for show.
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Banden



Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 140
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:36 am Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
FinalArcadia wrote:
He could use the pictures to coerce kids? He could probably do that with candy, too. Is candy illegal to have now as well?

Grooming is a real thing. Not so much "coerce" as "Look what this little girl is doing. See how she's enjoying herself? Do you want to try that too?". Because I haven't quoted him nearly enough in the past:

Jonathan Clements wrote:
It was initially a shock to me, some ten years ago, when I heard the BBFC ruling that Overfiend IV might be used "by pedophiles to entice children". The concept of 'grooming' wasn't one I'd ever heard before. [...] It's why you really, really do not wan't some nonce showing hentai pictures to children and using that as a means to convince them that what they see is normal, aacceptable and indeed encouraged.


This so-called "grooming" argument is the same one that the religious right and sex-negative feminists made about pornography as a whole they they tried to get Playboy and Penthouse banned from store shelves in the US in the 1980's and 90's. The claims were that porn encouraged unhealthy sex drives and the sexual objectification of women, promiscuity, infidelity, unsafe sex, sexual violence, all of which could only lead to an explosion of sexual assault and rape if they were allowed to be sold by mass market retailers such as grocery stores and gas stations in otherwise respectable communities.

The real truth is that sexual assault and rape have been on the decline for decades, and some 20 years of academic research into the matter since the controversy have shown conclusively that pornography has almost the exact opposite effect: As it becomes more available within just about any geographic, demographic, or socioeconomic environment, the incidence of sex crimes falls across the board. So many studies have been done over the years, you can pick any number of them at random and find yourself directed to almost the exact same conclusion. Nudie mags don't encourage sex crimes, they discourage them. BDSM porn doesn't encourage sex crimes, it discourages them. Rape porn doesn't encourage sex crimes, it discourages them. Every variation of the claim has been explored countless times by ever manner of research institution, and the conclusion is always the same. The science is pretty much settled. Only a person completely ignorant of the statistics continues to make this kind of claim...

Among which I would have to number Mr. Jonathan Clements, apparently. I'm very curious though... Is there any particular reason why you choose to quote his definition of "grooming", among all others... he being a biographer of Confucius and anime and Japanese Dorama encyclopedist... as if his is any kind of authoritative word on the subject? As far as I can tell, his apprehensions about presumed "pedophiles" (hentai manga consumers) enticing children with it is no more informed or persuasive than the religious right and the anti-sex feminists' apprehensions were about Playboy.
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