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NEWS: Seitokai no Ichizon Light Novels' TV Anime Green-Lit


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tealovertoma



Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 8
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:27 pm Reply with quote
Zipper wrote:
I guess our "wine and cheese" get about as old as these creativity-void series Japan keeps pumping out. The sad thing is that these shows are successful, otherwise Japan would have moved on years ago. I especially hate it when I see productions that actually try to be creative and do something that's actually different and that's not just an afterthought get bashed to hell by so many anime fans, yet tripe like this gets thousands of fansub downloads and multiple fansub groups subbing it. It's hard to move on as an anime fan without saying something when 90% of anime tends to be productions such as these. I understand full and well that I don't have to watch them, but it is slightly annoying to know that so many resources are going into shows like this when they could be going into something more worthwhile. Unfortunately stuff like this is making lots of money, and of course that's the only thing any business cares about. Moe moe moe. Harem harem harem. Romcom romcom romcom. *yawn*


Hear, hear.
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edzieba



Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 704
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:37 pm Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
Just don't expect the Japanese otaku and the industry that serves them to change to Western artistic values in their entertainment. And frankly, I hope they never do. I wish they would just ignore any other markets in their creative thinking, because despite the preponderance of trashy shows, I still want the Japanese in my anime. I abandoned Western entertainment because I was bored and sick of it, so I don't want Japan trying to emulate us any more than they already do (I did mention reality TV, right?).
And we all know what happens when Anime tries too hard to appeal to western markets. Afro Samurai happens.
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Zipper



Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:05 pm Reply with quote
pparker wrote:
We... or most of us it seems... are trying to find Western entertainment in Japanese anime. That's like trying to find conservative political viewpoints in French movies.


I'm not too sure where you got that idea. But maybe I'm missing something. I watch anime for the same reason I watch anything else - because I think it's good. I don't care what kind of good it is, just as long as it's good. Do you think that anything that isn't "moe" or cutesy (cute stuff is obviously very popular in Japan) isn't "Japanese" enough? I'm just not certain on why you brought that up at all.
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:05 pm Reply with quote
Zipper wrote:
pparker wrote:
We... or most of us it seems... are trying to find Western entertainment in Japanese anime. That's like trying to find conservative political viewpoints in French movies.

I'm not too sure where you got that idea. But maybe I'm missing something. I watch anime for the same reason I watch anything else - because I think it's good. I don't care what kind of good it is, just as long as it's good. Do you think that anything that isn't "moe" or cutesy (cute stuff is obviously very popular in Japan) isn't "Japanese" enough? I'm just not certain on why you brought that up at all.

Because every time one of these shows gets announced, you can cut-n-paste the 50 anti-moe, anti-eroge-adaptation, and anti-harem posts, and "OMG if they didn't make this crap, they would have the money to make GOOD anime", from every past similar release thread. According to local opinion, those eroge adaptations have no merit as entertainment, are only appealing to the Japanese otaku, i.e., the loli-pervert Japanese otaku, and not to viewers in the West, and it's J. Otaku's fault that we don't get more "quality" anime. While I don't doubt that some of those opinions are based in educated, refined artistic tastes in film entertainment, or simple genre preference, most of it I presume comes from differences in religious, moral and cultural viewpoints that have no bearing on what the Japanese may want.

The point is, I'm more interested in seeing what Japan wants to see (what the Japanese want to create for themselves), not what non-Japanese want to see. If only because I'm tired of Western entertainment. That is what I said... not that Japanese entertainment was better, or that all Western entertainment is bad, but that I, personally, got completely bored with live action Western entertainment after several thousand movies, including a painstakingly assembled collection of 1,200 DVDs representing apparently the best the West has ever had to offer. I lost interest, then happened onto Neon Genesis Evangelion two years ago and have watched virtually nothing but anime since. (American TV was lost too long ago to even consider barring very few exceptions. Koi Koi Seven is classic literature compared to any episode of any reality show ever filmed.)

Moe, romcom, harem, etc, are a big part of the current landscape of Japanese animation and reflexively its culture. Do I want to eliminate them from anime so someone can produce more anime in Western-friendly style, most likely with political "significance" that 2 critics will drool over in reviews and that 42 people will think is good (Ummm... Flag, anyone?). No. I don't think so.

Doesn't mean moe=Japanese or non-Moe=West. My favorites visually this past season were Kurozuka, Casshern Sins and Michiko to Hatchin. My favorite so far this season is Rideback. All non-moe. Did I enjoy them more than moe shows, or think they were intrinsically superior somehow? No. Both Kannagi and Toradora! were/are more entertaining, and better even from a literary point of view (Casshern being equal) and both are moe romcoms. None, AFAIK, were targeted at Western audiences, except perhaps Michiko, but I don't know even that since it's done by the creators of Samurai Champloo.

Hopefully that makes my reason for bringing it up clear.
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Zipper



Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:14 pm Reply with quote
I think the hate comes from a more simple standpoint than anyone's religious or cultural standpoints. Quite frankly I was fine with these kind of anime years ago when when the fad was just becoming prevalent, but then the years began to pass by, and anime production got bigger and bigger to the point where we'd literally see 90+ new series in a single season, and I started to cringe at how many were these thoughtless stereotypical moe/harem series that brought nothing new to the game. I find it funny how we have so many terms for these cliche character archetypes because we see them so often. Hell, we even had a whole series based on one archetype called "Tsuyokiss" as well as various anime that proudly and purposely tote the "moe" flag around. It's becoming a joke. People eat it up and there's no demand for creativity, so this sort of thing becomes the majority of what is made. So I don't think there's any sort of cultural differences to blame for the criticism of these shows (and if there is, it's in the minority), I just think people are, plain and simply, sick and tired of seeing this stuff. I'm sure you could replace moe/etc. with any other genre, and if it's overdone and generic (like the super robot anime of the early 90s), then people people would get sick of that too.

Luckily, for those of us who are not into that sort of thing, there are always a couple of gems to look forward most seasons. With the amount of anime that comes out yearly, there could be and should be more, but I'll take what I can get.

Luckily for fans of this sort of stuff, they'll always have plenty to watch each season. Razz
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pparker



Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Posts: 1185
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:05 am Reply with quote
Zipper wrote:
I just think people are, plain and simply, sick and tired of seeing this stuff.

That motivation does make sense, especially since it's somewhat the mirror of my own feelings on Western film. I haven't been around long enough to completely burn out on it. I think I'm a bit different, in that I do differentiate between the bad (Akane-Iro ni Somaru Saka), the good (Toradora!), and the horribly bad (Akikan!)... hmm, even the exclamation points aren't a consistent clue. And there's also my point about my favorite genre being comedy and most of it being moe-style animation, so killing moe is pretty much killing comedy at this point in time. But if I can eventually grow completely tired of Western cliches and tropes and viewpoints in film, I'm sure the same can happen with anime.

What always gets me is the non-discriminating dismissal of an entire genre. Some may recall my comments in last Fall's preview thread to that effect in regards to ef ~A Tale of Memories~, one of my favorites in the moe genre. Not to mention Higurashi (When They Cry), one of the best shows of any genre ever IMHO.

I try not to generalize too much, even against genres I come closest to abhoring, such as shonen, and do still try every new show just in case I find a gem. I realize, too, that this site being R1 centric means that people have less interest and frankly fewer opportunities to see the good shows done in moe style since most avoid fansubs and many good moe shows, especially now, don't make it to R1. Clannad and Shuffle! certainly aren't the best of them in the past couple of years.

I won't discard entirely the cultural bias, because I see it, but it's probably less as you say.
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