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ANNCast - Super Game Show Bros 3


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Banden



Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 140
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:37 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
The sexism in both western and Japanese games is obvious on its face to even the most casual observer.

That you have to spend hundreds of words explaining to people how "the sky is actually green if you think about it because" means you're in denial about it, not that you're more enlightened or "get it" more than everyone else.


No disagreement with the first point here. As for the second... I'm genuinely baffled that you would say something like this after the discussion you hosted yourself on the February podcast. The female guests you brought on to discuss the topic unanimously agreed that female sexuality in games and anime and cosplay are not offensive as long as it isn't reinforcing a stereotype of women as sexual playthings for men. Sexual agency was the important buzzword, wasn't it?

However well intentioned, don't you think you might be just a tiny bit overzealous preaching about the obviousness of sexism, when it doesn't fall in line with the views of the women you brought together yourself to discuss the subject?

animehermit wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:


Sex and sexuality is not inherently misogynistic!



It is when it serves no point in the plot, and doesn't help inform her as a character.


If her costume doesn't help inform her as a character, what is offensive about her exactly? Please see my last post.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:42 pm Reply with quote
Banden wrote:
Zac wrote:
The sexism in both western and Japanese games is obvious on its face to even the most casual observer.

That you have to spend hundreds of words explaining to people how "the sky is actually green if you think about it because" means you're in denial about it, not that you're more enlightened or "get it" more than everyone else.


No disagreement with the first point here. As for the second... I'm genuinely baffled that you would say something like this after the discussion you hosted yourself on the February podcast. The female guests you brought on to discuss the topic unanimously agreed that female sexuality in games and anime and cosplay are not offensive as long as it isn't reinforcing a stereotype of women as sexual playthings for men. Sexual agency was the important buzzword, wasn't it?

However well intentioned, don't you think you might be just a tiny bit overzealous preaching about the obviousness of sexism, when it doesn't fall in line with the views of the women you brought together yourself to discuss the subject?


...the hell are you talking about? Do you fly off the handle like this in every single discussion or only the ones I've seen you participate in?

"Overzealous"? One line? You're projecting, bro.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 964
Location: The Argama
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:44 pm Reply with quote
Banden wrote:

If her costume doesn't help inform her as a character, what is offensive about her exactly? Please see my last post.


You really don't see how character who wears very little clothing and is used solely as a sex object isn't sexist?
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:47 pm Reply with quote
animehermit wrote:
Banden wrote:

If her costume doesn't help inform her as a character, what is offensive about her exactly? Please see my last post.


You really don't see how character who wears very little clothing and is used solely as a sex object isn't sexist?


Ifrit
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 964
Location: The Argama
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:50 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
animehermit wrote:
Banden wrote:

If her costume doesn't help inform her as a character, what is offensive about her exactly? Please see my last post.


You really don't see how character who wears very little clothing and is used solely as a sex object isn't sexist?


Ifrit


Ifirit isn't nearly as sexualized as Shiva is. For one, I don't think half-goat men do it for most women.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:51 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
animehermit wrote:
Banden wrote:

If her costume doesn't help inform her as a character, what is offensive about her exactly? Please see my last post.


You really don't see how character who wears very little clothing and is used solely as a sex object isn't sexist?


Completely false equivalency


I feel like this is most of the argument here.
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Veers



Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1197
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:53 pm Reply with quote
animehermit wrote:
She doesn't have a character, so the the half-naked female appearance really serves no point than to rile up male fantasies.

I'm wasn't disagreeing with you about Shiva being sexualized or not, because she obviously is in most of the game art. I'm also not disagreeing with you about her design being what it is for (mostly) male fanservice.

Point I was trying to make was just that while Shiva's female-influenced aesthetics may well be shallow and/or sexist, because Shiva is not human, or even intended to be a representation of a real [fictional] person, it's a different issue than the treatment/representation of female characters who are meant to seem human. Does that excuse Shiva's "hyper-feminized" design? No. I'm just saying that to me it's much less something to worry about when there are so many other examples of more--not sure what the word I'm looking for is--deliberate? harmful? distasteful? sexism in video games.


Last edited by Veers on Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Surrender Artist



Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 3264
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:54 pm Reply with quote
I think that the worst thing about this whole exchange is that it almost immediately became about the endless case of Japan v. The West, which I think is a pretty useless and absurd conversation. If nothing else, there's no point in fighting it. What do we get if we 'win'. The congressional medal of freedom and our name on an dollar coin that will end up sitting in vaults at the mint because nobody uses them? Or perhaps the 'Japan' side is hoping for a lifetime supply of pocky and a lock of Hideaki Anno's hair. It's a meaningless contest that makes any serious subject that's ostensibly at hand a mostly a pretense.

Petty nationalism is bad when practiced by a nation's own people and there's an ample supply in both nations. When practiced by foreigners, it's redundant and insane.
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Fencedude5609



Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 5088
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:57 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Fencedude5609 wrote:
animehermit wrote:
Banden wrote:

If her costume doesn't help inform her as a character, what is offensive about her exactly? Please see my last post.


You really don't see how character who wears very little clothing and is used solely as a sex object isn't sexist?


Completely false equivalency


I feel like this is most of the argument here.


I'd like someone to explain why we are focused so hard on Shiva, when she's an anthropomorphised concept, and the male summons are just as sexualized.

There are actual issues we could discuss, and this is just dancing around it.
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Banden



Joined: 24 Sep 2010
Posts: 140
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:58 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
...the hell are you talking about? Do you fly off the handle like this in every single discussion or only the ones I've seen you participate in?

"Overzealous"? One line? You're projecting, bro.


Fly off the handle? One line? Projecting?

I've been participating in this discussion for less than a page, and I'm pretty sure my comments have been consistently level headed and lay my points out pretty transparently.

Not sure where the reactions in the last reply came from, but I've read and understand pretty well where Animehermit's POV is coming from, which you apparently think is justified, and I just can't help but point out that the females in the sexism podcast didn't see cleavage and skimpy costumes as demeaning as the two of you apparently do. Seems like there's valuable discussion to be had there.

I'm just repeating points raised and discussed at length on ANNCast. I thought the whole point of having it in the first place was to cast some light on the ways sexism isn't as obvious to the casual observer as a typical (male) anime fan might suppose?
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Veers



Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1197
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:05 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
I'd like someone to explain why we are focused so hard on Shiva, when she's an anthropomorphised concept, and the male summons are just as sexualized.

Titan asked for a list of 36 "bad female characters."
animehermit listed 35 female characters + Shiva.
I took issue with classifying Shiva as a female character, because of the character part, not because of the female part or the sexualized part.
We spent a page on semantics.
Now here we are.

Quote:
There are actual issues we could discuss, and this is just dancing around it.

I agree, and as I hope my last post indicated, I am not trying to say that what Shiva is and stands for isn't worth discussing, I'm just saying I think it's a different issue worth discussing (because she's more an concept rather than an individual fictional human woman that is being deliberately objectified, like everything else in that list supposedly is [haven't played some of those games so I can't comment on some others in the list]).


Last edited by Veers on Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dreg



Joined: 27 Nov 2011
Posts: 12
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:07 pm Reply with quote
The thing I hate about Wonderbook and similar products is that they are always marketed on the core concept of "Hey kids, isn't reading BORING? This product brings books to life!"

It's like...no. Do you know what brings books to life? Imagination. Empathy. Personal investment. If you want kids to learn these things, make them do the work themselves, because acquiring these qualities are worth it.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:12 pm Reply with quote
Banden wrote:


Fly off the handle? One line? Projecting?

I've been participating in this discussion for less than a page, and I'm pretty sure my comments have been consistently level headed and lay my points out pretty transparently.

Not sure where the reactions in the last reply came from, but I've read and understand pretty well where Animehermit's POV is coming from, which you apparently think is justified, and I just can't help but point out that the females in the sexism podcast didn't see cleavage and skimpy costumes as demeaning as the two of you apparently do. Seems like there's valuable discussion to be had there.

I'm just repeating points raised and discussed at length on ANNCast. I thought the whole point of having it in the first place was to cast some light on the ways sexism isn't as obvious to the casual observer as a typical (male) anime fan might suppose?


Look, it's entirely about male gaze. Completely. It's mostly about context, camera placement, that sort of thing. Sexy girls are not inherently sexist, sex in anime is not inherently misogynist. Nobody's making that argument. I consider myself a sex-positive person who chooses to not be a creep about it or insert sex into every single conversation I have; I don't think "lady in revealing outfit" is bad or sexist or whatever.

It's all in how the material is presented. Anime has more male gaze going on than any other form of entertainment medium I can think of, and games are probably a close second. That Tomb Raider game is incredibly, ridiculously, over-the-top sexist and probably deeply misogynist. The game producer's comments do nothing but strongly reinforce that. You want an example of how ugly male gaze can be? Watch the E3 trailer for that game. Jeepers.

Shiva, on the other hand, is "sexy lady in revealing outfit" and is usually presented in a heavily stylized manner. I wouldn't say Shiva is a sexist portrayal of anything; that's a really terrible example to build an argument on when there's so much incredibly obvious sexism in games otherwise. I presume some of you have played Batman Arkham City, for example.
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TitanXL



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 4036
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:24 pm Reply with quote
Fencedude5609 wrote:
Japan, almost despite itself, actually manages to put out games with strong female leads. Yeah, the costume design is fetishized, and you can make hay out of what the actual intent was, but in the end, Atelier Totori is the story of a girl who wants to be an Adventurer, and the trials she and her friends undergo on the way there. She makes it on her own merits, by her own strength.


That's the overall point I'm trying to make. The existance of DoA Beach Vollyball does not detrimnent the fact that Japan has leagues of great examples of females, some even in starring roles. This is like dismissing anime because there's ecchi anime out there, and ignoring the plethora of great female characters in anime and the fact they have two entire demographics (shoujo and josei) of anime/manga dedicated specifically to women, which no other country in the world can claim to have. Hell, you even have otome in video games, of course none of them really get release outside Japan, but such is life. Finding random faulty examples does not diminish the huge advantage one side has over the other. Because you're right, girls probably are not playing DoA Beach Vollyball OR watching those anime.. they're watching the ones that actually do appeal to them.

animehermit wrote:
I just listed 36 bad female characters. 36. That's not even going that in depth with it.


Your choice of characters has already been called to be suspect.

Not to mention it's not the point. Just because you can find "bad" examples doesn't mean there isn't more good examples than western developers.

Quote:
I listed Yuna from X-2 as she did a complete 180 personality shift. I actually kinda like Yuna from X, but this girl in X-2 is not the same person.


Obviously, because she grew and has changed since that instance. She's actually more independant and outgoing in X-2, which should be a huge plus. She leads her group of trasure hunters and is taking initiative of her own life and doing what she wants and refusing to take "no" for an answer when someone tells her her dreams are stupid and she'll achieive her goals no matter what. This is a bad role model because...?

Zac wrote:
The sexism in both western and Japanese games is obvious on its face to even the most casual observer.

That you have to spend hundreds of words explaining to people how "the sky is actually green if you think about it because" means you're in denial about it, not that you're more enlightened or "get it" more than everyone else.


What a terrible way to judge an argument. All anyone has to do is purposely drag it out as long as they can by playing ignorant and being argumentative and then they can just say "Well, the fact we're still debating obviously means it's questionable and not a clear cut issue".

Surrender Artist wrote:
I think that the worst thing about this whole exchange is that it almost immediately became about the endless case of Japan v. The West, which I think is a pretty useless and absurd conversation. If nothing else, there's no point in fighting it. What do we get if we 'win'


Competition breed innovation. Acknowledging when someone does something better and trying to be like them is how you branch out to new demographics and grow as a product and industry. Just like with cartoons and comics; females have long been ignored in animation and comics in the west. Have you not seen all the anime-wannabe attempts to attract anime fans, and girls? What about Marvel and DC's attempts at getting female readers in? One of their attempts was manga-like comics

The only difference here is; unlike cartoons and comics, western video games are not in any financially troubling times. They make enough money off CoD, Halo, and Battlefield to not even care what females think of their industry and they aren't desperate to hook female gamers. Meanwhile, the latest Tales convention in Japan was dominated by fujoshi.. especially the character popularity polls.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 964
Location: The Argama
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:32 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:


Your choice of characters has already been called to be suspect.

Not to mention it's not the point. Just because you can find "bad" examples doesn't mean there isn't more good examples than western developers.



A grand total of 1 character was called into question. I could easily list another 12.
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